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  1. #176

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Well, Flynn is toast.

    He lied about his conversations with Russia to the FBI. They don't like that. That's a felony that comes with jail time. Will he do time or roll on someone?
    Assuming Trump doesn't pull an Obama and pardon him.

  2. #177

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Assuming Trump doesn't pull an Obama and pardon him.
    That's not an Obama move, that's Nixon. We aren't even four weeks in here.

  3. #178

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    That's not an Obama move, that's Nixon. We aren't even four weeks in here.
    James Cartwright. General convicted of lying to the FBI. Pardoned by Obama on the way out of the door, right before sentencing.

  4. #179

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    James Cartwright. General convicted of lying to the FBI. Pardoned by Obama on the way out of the door, right before sentencing.
    If Trump pardons Flynn, it's to keep Flynn from rolling on Trump. That's not similar.

  5. #180

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    If Trump pardons Flynn, it's to keep Flynn from rolling on Trump. That's not similar.
    It's pardoning. A general. Convicted of lying to the FBI.


    It's exactly the same thing.

  6. #181

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    It's pardoning. A general. Convicted of lying to the FBI.


    It's exactly the same thing.
    This is a great example of why these two supposed sides in our current political state will never be the way they were. The difference is obvious. But one side says there is no difference with such absolute certainty that there can be no common ground.

    They are not the same thing. As with life, there is nuance in most anything and the nuances matter. The nuances here matter.

    But you just keep on truckin' down that road. Whatever makes you happy.

  7. Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmond_Outsider View Post
    Amazing.
    The truth is never embarrassed by honest inquiry.

  8. #183

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Except that I said "pull an Obama" in reference to pardoning a general who lied to the FBI. Which he did last month. It's the action. Identical. Are people really just this argumentative that if you say the sky is blue they'll say it's red?

    As far as I know Nixon never pardoned a General (if anyone) for lying to the FBI so don't see that comparison.

  9. #184

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    I sincerely doubt that Flynn would face charges even if it's clear he lied. It's not worth the effort, his career in national security is over and he's been disgraced and discredited enough. Move on to more important things.

  10. #185

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    It's really not a choice. If we are a nation of laws, Flynn will have to face the consequences. He will either cop a plea deal (i.e. Oliver North/Iran-Contra) or he will be convicted and Trump will pardon him. If he cops a plea, it'll be interesting to see who he'll finger.

  11. #186

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by EricOK View Post
    It's really not a choice. If we are a nation of laws, Flynn will have to face the consequences. He will either cop a plea deal (i.e. Oliver North/Iran-Contra) or he will be convicted and Trump will pardon him. If he cops a plea, it'll be interesting to see who he'll finger.
    There's always a choice with federal prosecutions.

  12. #187

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Assuming Trump doesn't pull an Obama and pardon him.
    I think that was the formula Gingrich was prescribing when asked if Trump could really do the things he said he wanted to do.

  13. Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    FBI don't care:

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/16/politi...ynn/index.html

    House is investigating him on other things, but I'll bet they're not gonna care either:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...045cd34bf8757?

  14. #189

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chadanth View Post
    I sincerely doubt that Flynn would face charges even if it's clear he lied. It's not worth the effort, his career in national security is over and he's been disgraced and discredited enough. Move on to more important things.
    I think the important thing is finding out exactly why he was lying. Was it just to save his own butt or was he protecting more people? Either way there is more damage done by this than just Flynn's actions. Given that he is not the only one with extensive ties to Russia in the administration, including Trump, that will make it more difficult from us to work with the intelligence agencies of our allies around the world. They can't be sure what will and won't be shared with Russia and there are a lot of our allies that face a much more direct threat from Russia than we do. Combine that with Trump's dismissive approach to his own daily briefings from our own IC, and you get a White House that is flying blind and relying on its own intuition to conduct foreign affairs. That's some scary stuff.

    In hind sight, it became clear that there was a lot of intelligence available that pointed to the 9/11 attack was available, but no one put it together. And that was an administration that was paying attention to the intelligence. Our IC is more robust now than then and, I believe, work together in a more synergistic manner. It's more likely that they would be able to put it together today than in 2000. But, does it matter if the President of the Unites States isn't even reading or listening to what's available to him? Now, he has been very successful at getting a lot of people to go along with his extensive scapegoating so far, but this is simple and willful negligence that is hard to even comprehend at this point.

  15. #190

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Am I wrong or wasn't the act of speaking to the to the ambassador about sanctions a crime in and of itself? That seems to be the most egregious part in all of this.


    House is investigating him on other things, but I'll bet they're not gonna care either:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...045cd34bf8757?
    We'll see. They have to at least look they're looking into it. If it's political and not principled, it could just be a way to stall, while they hope for something bigger to distract us. I do believe there are some that are very sincere about taking this seriously, though.

  16. #191

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Am I wrong or wasn't the act of speaking to the to the ambassador about sanctions a crime in and of itself? That seems to be the most egregious part in all of this.
    It is, but the Logan act is 200+ years old, outdated, and not enforced, so I don't expect to see anything there.


    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    We'll see. They have to at least look they're looking into it. If it's political and not principled, it could just be a way to stall, while they hope for something bigger to distract us. I do believe there are some that are very sincere about taking this seriously, though.
    If they FBI decides he didn't lie, not much to do there. My reading was that he lied to the FBI, Pence, and more, so should be something.

  17. #192

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    It is, but the Logan act is 200+ years old, outdated, and not enforced, so I don't expect to see anything there.
    How is it outdated? Is it no longer relevant to keep unauthorized citizens from discussing active sanctions with hostile nations?

    Why do we not enforce it anymore?

  18. #193

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    How is it outdated? Is it no longer relevant to keep unauthorized citizens from discussing active sanctions with hostile nations?

    Why do we not enforce it anymore?
    We've never enforced it, is my point. I'm not saying it shouldn't be. But it's not. And honestly, it's origin was political in nature... There are arguments that speech between a private citizen and a foreign government are covered under free speech.

    No person has ever been prosecuted for violating the logan act, so I don't expect that to change.

  19. #194

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    The Logan Act violation isn't the big deal here and really neither is Flynn. He's going to be used to move up the chain. The real issue the probable collusion between the Trump Campaign and Russian Intelligence when the Russians were hacking the DNC to influence the election. That is a whole flotilla of serious felonies including treason.

  20. #195

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Wolf!

  21. #196

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Wolf!
    What's the wolf endgame? Or do we just not know yet?

    Is the whole Russian relationship a constructed "wolf"?

    I honestly am not sure if you're trying to dismiss it or if you're issuing a warning.

  22. #197

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    What's the wolf endgame? Or do we just not know yet?

    Is the whole Russian relationship a constructed "wolf"?
    Not sure but let's keep crying it!

  23. #198

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Why do we not enforce it anymore?
    Why do we not enforce it ever?

  24. #199

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Why do we not enforce it ever?
    Because it's likely unconstitutional and was merely a political move by Adams?

  25. #200

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Wolf!
    This isn't fake, it's very, very serious. Here's a take down of Trump on lying about Russia from that liberal bastion, FoxNews:
    https://youtu.be/fysSDYkhHlU

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