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  1. #126

  2. #127

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?


  3. #128

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Our moral equals is a pretty low bar to set considering our behavior all over the world the last half century.

  4. #129

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Our moral equals is a pretty low bar to set considering our behavior all over the world the last half century.
    Well, I'm not sure our IC has killed American dissidents for the President. Yet. And, if they have, we agree that it was wrong for them to do that, right?

    And, of course, there's no innocence in all of this, but I guess it's more disturbing to think that some are thinking we should be ruled in Putin fashion, mainly because we're just as guilty. I think the main difference, though, is that if American people see something wrong with their government they can still point it out and speak out against it, even if they disagree with the person who got elected. Not a good idea to do that in Russia. But maybe some now think the Russian way is a good way to do it? After Trump praised Putin's leadership, he defended Putin's killing because he sees us as being killers in the same vain. And, now, the "us" is him. I mean, are we just to excuse authoritarians around the world because "we've got a lot of killers"? Is it now okay to kill dissidents? I mean, I just don't get where that whole point is going...

  5. #130

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Our moral equals is a pretty low bar to set considering our behavior all over the world the last half century.
    You really want to compare ourselves as close to equals with a country like Russia? You cant be that serious.

    As mentioned, they kill opponents. Just two weeks ago a Russian person who is outspoken critic of Putin was poisoned, for the second time in his life. Also, Russia decriminalized domestic abuse the other week too. Great people over there...

    I cant let this go without mentioning the invasion and taking of Crimea or the scorched earth carpet bombings in Aleppo, which was not fighting ISIS but only helping Assad. But hey, we are equals, right?

    Sure there can be valid criticism for our behavior in instances, but to say we are no better than Russia is a joke.

  6. #131

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    You really want to compare ourselves as close to equals with a country like Russia? You cant be that serious.

    As mentioned, they kill opponents. Just two weeks ago a Russian person who is outspoken critic of Putin was poisoned, for the second time in his life. Also, Russia decriminalized domestic abuse the other week too. Great people over there...

    I cant let this go without mentioning the invasion and taking of Crimea or the scorched earth carpet bombings in Aleppo, which was not fighting ISIS but only helping Assad. But hey, we are equals, right?

    Sure there can be valid criticism for our behavior in instances, but to say we are no better than Russia is a joke.
    It's almost like someone wants to protect Russia by creating moral equivalence instead of asking for War Crimes investigations for Russian actions in Syria. Why would that be?

  7. #132

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    You really want to compare ourselves as close to equals with a country like Russia? You cant be that serious.

    As mentioned, they kill opponents. Just two weeks ago a Russian person who is outspoken critic of Putin was poisoned, for the second time in his life. Also, Russia decriminalized domestic abuse the other week too. Great people over there...

    I cant let this go without mentioning the invasion and taking of Crimea or the scorched earth carpet bombings in Aleppo, which was not fighting ISIS but only helping Assad. But hey, we are equals, right?

    Sure there can be valid criticism for our behavior in instances, but to say we are no better than Russia is a joke.
    Strawman. I didn't call us their equals, or that we're no better than Russia.

  8. #133

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Well, I'm not sure our IC has killed American dissidents for the President. Yet. And, if they have, we agree that it was wrong for them to do that, right?

    And, of course, there's no innocence in all of this, but I guess it's more disturbing to think that some are thinking we should be ruled in Putin fashion, mainly because we're just as guilty. I think the main difference, though, is that if American people see something wrong with their government they can still point it out and speak out against it, even if they disagree with the person who got elected. Not a good idea to do that in Russia. But maybe some now think the Russian way is a good way to do it? After Trump praised Putin's leadership, he defended Putin's killing because he sees us as being killers in the same vain. And, now, the "us" is him. I mean, are we just to excuse authoritarians around the world because "we've got a lot of killers"? Is it now okay to kill dissidents? I mean, I just don't get where that whole point is going...
    Reread my post. I neither defended nor compared us to Russia. I was commenting on McCain's comparison to Russia dissidents as our moral equals. Literally the text of the link you posted.

    People twist themselves around to find hidden meaning in a simple comment.

  9. #134

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Jerry,

    What should be done with Flynn if since it's been shown he talked to Russia about removing the sanctions before Trump was President?

    You also do know that parts of the former MI6 officers dossier on Trump's Russia ties have been confirmed?
    http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...details-2017-2

    The green card holder from Mexico that has learning disabilities and a sixth grade education just got 8 years in Prison for voting illegally (for Mitt Romney ironically), what penalty should Trump get when it's proven he colluded with Russia on getting himself elected?

  10. #135

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Jerry,

    What should be done with Flynn if since it's been shown he talked to Russia about removing the sanctions before Trump was President?

    You also do know that parts of the former MI6 officers dossier on Trump's Russia ties have been confirmed?
    http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...details-2017-2

    The green card holder from Mexico that has learning disabilities and a sixth grade education just got 8 years in Prison for voting illegally (for Mitt Romney ironically), what penalty should Trump get when it's proven he colluded with Russia on getting himself elected?
    I'm not a Trump supporter, nor a Russia defender, so no idea why you're asking me those questions.

    But I'll bite.

    1. Flynn? Whatever the penalty for violating the Logan Act is (assuming he's convicted).
    2. Yup, they've confirmed that Russian officials discussed trying to influence the election (or at least had discussions on the days the dossier claimed, although they've not proven the topic). No shock there. Of course they did. I've said as much (pretty sure on this thread). Just as they've done on prior elections. We do the same.
    3. Depends on the level of collusion.

  11. #136

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Btw. She voted illegally in five elections, and falsified a voter registration form after the first one got rejected. Whether or not the sentence is too harsh, the education level and learning disability has no bearing to me.

  12. #137

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Reread my post. I neither defended nor compared us to Russia. I was commenting on McCain's comparison to Russia dissidents as our moral equals. Literally the text of the link you posted.

    People twist themselves around to find hidden meaning in a simple comment.
    Well, okay, I assumed you were talking about the whole content of his article. That is, a reaction to the principles the specific dissident he referenced is standing for, in his opinion. The idea that all Russian dissidents are our moral equals, as the link text reads, is definitely an absurd one. Both because all Russian dissidents don't share the same moral values and, clearly, neither do all Americans.

    But the ones that McCain attaches to Vladimir Kara-Murza's efforts are ones that I think were at one time attached to the idea of America. That is, freedom from tyranny and freedom of speech without risk of persecution (or poisoning) from the government. Or even just the idea that elections don't change your right to disagree with who was elected and what they stand for.

    So, yes, McCain was talking about ideas that can not be recognized in the worst of our country's actions, but I think he spoke to that as well. In my onion, he was not speaking to what we are, but what we should be. IF we hold those morals that Vladimir Kara-Murza has been fighting for in Russia as important, then we should be fighting for them in America as well, wherever we see them threatened, even if it's a threat from within.

    Basically, I think he feels the idea of what America should be is very much in flux and he identified with what Vladimir Kara-Murza has been trying to defend as ones that he thinks Americans should uniformly defend, as well. It may be changing and it may also have already been undermined by our past actions. I guess the real question is if those ideas are still worth defending, even if, as a nation, we no longer have the moral high ground.

  13. #138

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Bigly misinformation flowing from and around the Trump swamp.

    Representative Adam Kinzinger of Illinois, one of the few to comment publicly, said the cover-up was worse than the crime. “It was a bad decision to call Russia and talk about this in the middle of, you know, the past administration determining what sanctions are going to look like,” he said on Fox News. “But what happened, the big problem is when he lied to the vice president.”

    Mr. Spicer defended the president for waiting 2˝ weeks before taking action, saying Mr. Trump wanted to give Mr. Flynn “due process.”

    "Mr. Spicer’s comments were the first public confirmation by the White House that Mr. Trump was aware of the allegations against Mr. Flynn before they were reported last week. They also contradicted the previous description of the national security adviser’s abrupt departure on Monday night, attributing the decision to Mr. Trump rather than Mr. Flynn.

    Mr. Spicer’s account from the White House lectern once again was a public contradiction of a colleague. Just hours earlier, Kellyanne Conway, the president’s counselor, said on television that Mr. Flynn submitted his resignation voluntarily. “He decided that this situation had become unsustainable for him here and of course the president accepted that resignation,” Ms. Conway said on the “Today” show on NBC.

    A day earlier, she had been sent out to tell a television interviewer that Mr. Trump still had “full confidence” in Mr. Flynn, only to have Mr. Spicer tell reporters not long afterward that, in fact, “the president is evaluating the situation.” Seven hours after her affirmation of support, Mr. Flynn had resigned."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/u...tion.html?_r=0

  14. Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    The truth is never embarrassed by honest inquiry.

  15. #140

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    I don't expect them to do anything to Flynn under the Logan act, considering it's never been enforced in its history. However, if he lied to the FBI in the course of their investigation, that could definitely lead to some charges. We'll see.

  16. #141

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Flynn is a lackey. It's now about who told Flynn to tell the Russians not to worry about the sanctions. I wonder who that was?

  17. #142

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Flynn is a lackey. It's now about who told Flynn to tell the Russians not to worry about the sanctions. I wonder who that was?
    People need to start paying attention:

    Trump came in and attempted to do two things:

    1. Discredit the media.
    2. Discredit our own intelligence.

    It would be difficult for most of us to believe that Michael Flynn National Security Adviser) initiated this on his own. We know who has been pushing this agenda to get cozy up with Russia.

    I'll say this again, when we elected Donald Trump as President; we didn't have any idea what we have unleashed upon this country.

    Someone needs hold Trump to releasing his tax returns; there just may be something there Trump doesn't want us to see.

  18. #143

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laramie View Post
    I'll say this again, when we elected Donald Trump as President; we didn't have any idea what we have unleashed upon this country.
    Then again, has he really done anything surprising, given his campaign and career?

    IMO, it hasn't really been a blindsiding.

  19. #144

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Key player behind #Calexit may have deeper ties to Russia than any have realized.
    Could there be a major conspiracy involving Louis Marinelli as he lives in both Russia and California, but is actively pushing for California to secede and establish strong diplomatic ties with his second home country?

    http://abc7news.com/politics/exclusi...ussia/1752988/

    This is why I support California splitting into two states moreso than this method (although I personally believe in States Rights and suffrage as each state sees fit). There's been a movement to split CA into two halves, thus creating a new state (no secession, as this leftist plan has been calling for). And when that one started to gain traction, I remember reading comments and hearing from opponents that it was ridiculous, and a racist response to then President Obama.

    Consistency, folks… Still not seeing any.

  20. #145

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TU 'cane View Post
    Key player behind #Calexit may have deeper ties to Russia than any have realized.
    Could there be a major conspiracy involving Louis Marinelli as he lives in both Russia and California, but is actively pushing for California to secede and establish strong diplomatic ties with his second home country?

    http://abc7news.com/politics/exclusi...ussia/1752988/

    This is why I support California splitting into two states moreso than this method (although I personally believe in States Rights and suffrage as each state sees fit). There's been a movement to split CA into two halves, thus creating a new state (no secession, as this leftist plan has been calling for). And when that one started to gain traction, I remember reading comments and hearing from opponents that it was ridiculous, and a racist response to then President Obama.

    Consistency, folks… Still not seeing any.
    Yeah, it does seem like some kooky hashtag movement, but what was once considered illogical is happening more and more these days. The California two state thing has been around awhile (I remember reading about and seeing flyers for it when I lived there) and many states have some sort of secession faction. It does seem like Russia is having fun with our divisive elements though, so maybe there is something to it. I do think it's getting satisfaction from our political instability and the increasing lack of respect of our institutions from within. How much of it is calculated strategy is hard to tell, but it is showing how much damage can be done without firing a shot.

  21. #146

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Lankford is, at least, trying to sound like he's interested in truly getting to the bottom of this. We will see how much he means this as the investigation goes on.

    http://m.newsok.com/article/5538105

    app-facebook
    Senator James Lankford
    6 hours ago
    Last night's news regarding General Mike Flynn is concerning. The position of National Security Advisor is critical to ensuring the various agencies are cooperating effectively in matters of national security. Gen. Flynn resigned because he lost the trust of the President and the White House. The Senate Intelligence Committee, which I serve on, has already started an investigation into Russia’s attempts to interfere in the 2016 elections, including potential links between the presidential campaigns and Russian Government. The investigation will be thorough and deliberate, and we will follow the evidence wherever it leads.

  22. #147

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Consistency, right?
    When do we get a House Select Committee on Flynn?
    How many times will the senate hold hearings to interrogate him?

    HRC got 8 for Benghazi but Flynn might have a sub-investigation of a back burner investigation on Trump's Russian "ties?"

    Something doesn't seem consistent about this.
    for-gop-a-dimmed-zeal-for-investigations-in-trump-era

  23. #148

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Consistency? Republicans calling for an investigation of a Republican administration. This including leaders of the Republican party? If it was Democrats they'd be crying "right wing conspiracy!".

    Wait, you're right. There is consistency.

  24. #149

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Yeah, it does seem like some kooky hashtag movement, but what was once considered illogical is happening more and more these days. The California two state thing has been around awhile (I remember reading about and seeing flyers for it when I lived there) and many states have some sort of secession faction. It does seem like Russia is having fun with our divisive elements though, so maybe there is something to it. I do think it's getting satisfaction from our political instability and the increasing lack of respect of our institutions from within. How much of it is calculated strategy is hard to tell, but it is showing how much damage can be done without firing a shot.
    I think it's referenced in the link I posted but a recent Reuters poll indicated 1/3 of Californians supported outright secession. That is significant.

  25. #150

    Default Re: Russia, something or nothing?

    My question is if Democrat Michael Flynn is this crooked and corrupt, why did the Obama administration hire him 4 times, and how much did they know and when did they know it?

    (I can play the Trump Derangement Game too...)

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