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Thread: Downtown populations in other cities

  1. #1

    Default Downtown populations in other cities

    This came up in the Strawberry Fields C2S thread, but like I said there, I have always understood it as a hard rule of thumb that a city can support 1 to 5% of its metro population in the center city. I was asked in that thread to produce some stats on our peer cities, so this thread should serve as that. I'd encourage anyone who comes across such a stat or an article etc to share it in this thread.

    Note 1: This thread is only useful if people refrain from city vs city and just focus on the facts that we're all interested in learning.

    Note 2: The definition of a "downtown" is the crux of this as ALL cities are counting infill areas outside the CBD code, but it's a question of how much and how many areas. Wish I could add a land mass area to these stats...

    Note 3: All numbers represent residents, unless otherwise states (i.e., "__ units")

    Here's a few cities to start us off:

    OKC - 7,500
    http://www.okcchamber.com/clientuplo...n_brochure.pdf

    Kansas City - 24,000 now, 29,000 planned (units underway), and 33,000 5-year target
    http://www.kansascity.com/news/busin...e84819842.html

    Minneapolis - 40,000 currently, 70,000 target 2025
    http://www.downtownmpls.com/page/show/423275-2025-plan

    Tulsa - 6,000
    http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/r...461c993a5.html

    Des Moines - 10,000 (I don't trust this though)
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...ot-cool-213552

    Austin - 12,000
    http://www.downtownaustin.com/live/facts-figures

    Fort Worth - 2,100 rental units, 960 condo units (3,000 x 1.5 = 4,500?)
    http://www.dfwi.org/_files/docs/marc...-dashboard.pdf

    Dallas - I don't think is a fair apples-to-apples comparison

    Houston - 3,600 in the 45/10/69 loop, 55,000 in "Greater Downtown" (Midtown + Near East? If they're counting Montrose and Heights I call bogus)
    https://www.downtownhouston.org/resource/residential/

    Cleveland - 14,000 now, 20,000 planned (units underway), 25,000 target
    http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral...is_chan.html#0

    Cincinnati - 16,000 (including OTR and Mt. Auburn)
    http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnat...cinnati-s.html

    Columbus - 7,000 (not including the Short North and German Village which each have 20,000)
    http://www.columbusunderground.com/r...ntown-columbus

    Pittsburgh - 12,500, 2,300 more units planned
    http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/6...-units-percent

    Philadelphia - 180,000 (nation's 2nd most populous CBD after Midtown Manhattan), developers build approx 2,000 units annually
    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...nhattan_s.html

    Denver - 73,000, 13,000 new units since 2011 (counting Capitol Hill and Highland??)
    http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/bl...00-12-933.html

    Memphis - 24,000 (counting Mud Island?), 7,000 in the CBD
    http://www.downtownmemphiscommission...-demographics/

    Nashville - 10,000
    http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville...s-booming.html

    Charlotte - 15,000, 20,000 planned
    http://www.charlottecentercity.org/live/neighborhoods/

    Milwaukee - 21,000 (including historic wards?)
    https://www.milwaukeedowntown.com/im...et_Profile.pdf

    Detroit - 35,000 (including Midtown and Corktown)
    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._downtown.html

    Richmond - 10,000
    http://cppweb.vcu.edu/urban/Richmond...%20Profile.pdf

    Raleigh - 7,000
    http://dtraleigh.com/2016/06/2016-do...ation-numbers/

    Indianapolis - 27,000 (they don't have any other gentrified neighborhoods besides Broad Ripple)
    https://indyimby.wordpress.com/2015/...2010-and-2010/

    St. Louis - 14,000
    http://fox2now.com/2013/05/28/downto...ation-growing/

    Great article with an overview of Midwest downtowns: http://www.globest.com/sites/globest...g-the-midwest/

  2. #2

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Denver at 73k seems impossible. That would be well over 10% of the Denver proper population.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Denver proper is not a large land mass, but like I pointed out, I think their Downtown Partnership is also counting ancillary areas like Five Points (debatable), Capitol Hill (NOT downtown), and the Highlands (also NOT downtown). For Denver I'd count downtown/LoDo, Five Points, and the Central Platte Valley.

    However, to their point, Denver does have an incredible inventory of urban housing. It is a very substantial proportion of their metro population.

  4. Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Sorry to keep this thread about Denver, but if memory serves they have been working on this for 30 odd years. When I left in 97 the first phase or so of lodo was well underway and they were turning a lot of then empty buildings into high rent lofts. As a complete metropolis including the suburbs they were growing both up and out. I grew up primarily in the Columbine/Chatfield area and the area around Ken Caryl Ranch exploded in housing and stores right around the time I left, and the field I walked through to get to Columbine is now shopping and a park.

  5. Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    where is chicago on this? I know they have a huge downtown population that has been rapidly growing - I thought Chicago would ahve the 2nd largest downtown night-time population (in addition to 2nd largest daytime downtown pop).
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  6. Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    also, doesn't the OKC figure seem dated? only 7,000 residents?
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Well the Chicago Loop has 33,000 full-time residents. Near North has another 85,000. Making for almost 120,000 residents in an area that corresponds to Philly's Center City. Chicago's true nighttime population is hard to guess at bc of that city's nightlife and tourism.

    Philly just punches way above its weight as an urban center, but you don't think of it bc it gets overshadowed by much less nice locales like NYC :P

    I can't speak to the freshness of the 7,000 stat, but it is the number being reported in the last few years. Maybe it's 8,000 now, but we're really not growing our downtown like other cities are, and all of these numbers are in flux - hence why so few compilations of these figures exist bc it's such a crude science.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    That is a very liberal use of downtown for Denver. The population of downtown (CBD, LoDo, CPV, Union Station, Araphaoe Square) is around 20k. Now if you were to draw a 1.5-2 mile radius around a central point in the CBD that would include Capitol Hill, RiNo, Uptown, Golden Triangle, Lower Highlands, etc., you would be in the 70-75k range.

    As for OKC, what is considered downtown in that 7k number? I would agree that OKC seems to be lagging behind many of the other cities you mentioned. I read in Lackmeyer's chat last week that the market is adjusting to the influx of new places like Lift and Metropolitan, so like 600-700 units, that really should just be a blip on the radar. Again, not to make this a thread about Denver or OKC vs Denver, but Denver has about 2x the population and has added over 15,000 units to the downtown area (depending of definition) in about 5 years and another 6,000 or so are currenlty under construction...so the equivalent of like 70 Lifts.

    Edit: A quick glance at the Downtown Development Summary page indicates somewhere in the 2000-2200 range for new units(not counting conversions) since 2011 and about 600 currently under construction between Steelyard and 21C.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    I think your estimate for Fort Worth might be a little low, though I don't have hard data to support this. I'd be interested to see the definition of downtown being used. If it covers all area between the Trinity/Clear Fork and freeways, I'd be surprised.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    So all of the above are the exact reason I'm posting the links and my own reservations to these sources....

    As for FW, they don't even register compared to peer cities, it is what it is.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    As for FW, they don't even register compared to peer cities, it is what it is.
    Which I find incredibly surprising, considering they have one of the most well-designed and active downtowns in the region.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by TexanOkie View Post
    I think your estimate for Fort Worth might be a little low, though I don't have hard data to support this. I'd be interested to see the definition of downtown being used. If it covers all area between the Trinity/Clear Fork and freeways, I'd be surprised.
    The census tracts that cover that area had a population of 6,435 at the 2010 Census, using socialexplorer.com.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    This came up in the Strawberry Fields C2S thread, but like I said there, I have always understood it as a hard rule of thumb that a city can support 1 to 5% of its metro population in the center city. I was asked in that thread to produce some stats on our peer cities, so this thread should serve as that. I'd encourage anyone who comes across such a stat or an article etc to share it in this thread.
    Here's a few cities to start us off:

    Dallas - I don't think is a fair apples-to-apples comparison
    Yet you list Philadelphia.

    I'm curious as to your reasoning.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Sic'EmBears View Post
    Yet you list Philadelphia.

    I'm curious as to your reasoning.
    Yeah, I don't think he's been to Philly. It's huge. The city has 1.5 million people and the metro has over 7 million. Center City (downtown) has almost 200,000 residents.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Dallas doesn't really have rooftops downtown. The number I came across was not good, which I didn't think was representative of Dallas. Dallas is certainly cranking out urban housing units, just not downtown.

    You can (please) list whatever cities you want, and swake please tell us all about Philly and your extensive travels ��

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Dallas doesn't really have rooftops downtown. The number I came across was not good, which I didn't think was representative of Dallas. Dallas is certainly cranking out urban housing units, just not downtown.

    You can (please) list whatever cities you want, and swake please tell us all about Philly and your extensive travels ��
    Well Sparty my daughter lives there, the company I work for is based there, in fact my boss works out of that office, and I spent several years of my childhood living less than two hours away.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Well Sparty my daughter lives there, the company I work for is based there, in fact my boss works out of that office, and I spent several years of my childhood living less than two hours away.
    Very nice, then I recommend the a.kitchen in Rittenhouse. Go for brunch.

    I hear nearly 200,000 residents live nearby...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Dallas Center City Population:

    • Downtown - 13,041(90)
    • Uptown/Cityplace/Knox Park - 20,627
    • Deep Ellum - 2,621
    • Old East Dallas/Henderson (82)/Bryan Place/Junius Heights - 37,899
    • Design District - 1,932
    • Oak Lawn (86)/Turtle Creek - 31,933


    The aforementioned neighborhoods are contiguous. Parentheses indicates Walk Score.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Sic'EmBears View Post
    Dallas Center City Population:

    • Downtown - 13,041(90)
    • Uptown/Cityplace/Knox Park - 20,627
    • Deep Ellum - 2,621
    • Old East Dallas/Henderson/Bryan Place/Junius Heights - 37,899
    • Design District - 1,932
    • Oak Lawn/Turtle Creek - 31,933


    The aforementioned neighborhoods are contiguous. Parentheses indicates Walk Score.
    Surprised Deep Ellum is that low - I guess they're counting the large-scale infill toward the DART station as Old East Dallas?

    Also, looking forward to watching the Design District explode. It's going to be exciting to watch unfold, thanks to your updates in the other thread.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Also, looking forward to watching the Design District explode. It's going to be exciting to watch unfold, thanks to your updates in the other thread.
    Glad to do so.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    I was just in downtown Indy 6 weeks ago, that number seems surprising. Are they counting the Massachusetts Ave area?

  22. #22

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Quote Originally Posted by bradh View Post
    I was just in downtown Indy 6 weeks ago, that number seems surprising. Are they counting the Massachusetts Ave area?
    Absolutely. Indy counts everything inside the inner beltway.

    Indy is an interesting town. The downtown is really incredible... prob best mid-sized city downtown in Midwest... the rest of the city (80%) is surprisingly disinvested.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Totally agree with your comments Spartan about Indy. Lived in Indianapolis for 8 years when the DT renaissance was occurring. Truly transformed the DT area, but as you say the rest of the City has declined. I lived in NE Indy around E 38th Street which was a nice area but has since seen signifant decline. Indianapolis leadership made a conscious decision to change the perception of Indy from "Naptown" via Sports and Entertainment. Started with the Hoosier Dome, complete overhaul of the Government center , getting the Colts etc etc. Now as you said DT INDY is really great, but Indy as a whole has suffered

  24. #24

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    This is a few years old and doesn't really cite exactly how the data was obtained, but an interesting look at Midwestern cities.

    http://allcolumbusdata.com/?p=1079

  25. #25

    Default Re: Downtown populations in other cities

    Your Dallas comments are so off base. I am not quite certain where you get your information, but Dallas has dozens of residential buildings with several thousand residents in its central business district. I sense a case of Dallas envy.

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