Coffee creek golf course sold for housing?

[Plutonic Panda]

I dig the Aqua Teen Hunger Force quotes

If I recall correctly, Matt was going to create a spin off called Spacecataz but it didn’t pass the pilot so they incorporated the pilot into the prologues of the 3 or 4th seasons(I forget exactly which ones) but it’s one of my favorite cartoons. The 2000s were great man. Adult swim, Toonami, early seasons of SpongeBob when Hillenburg was actually involved, and of course family guy. But unfortunately this industry has gotten weird about how they go about green lighting production these days and I don’t think we’ll get much of those types of shows anymore. At least for the time being.

You’re a person of culture I see.

[TheTravellers]

... The 2000s were great man. Adult swim, Toonami, early seasons of SpongeBob when Hillenburg was actually involved, and of course family guy. ...

And Samurai Jack.

[Plutonic Panda]

And Samurai Jack.

Yeah, that was a great one. I really miss those shows. Everything from Ed, Edd, n Eddy to Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy to Codename Kids Nextdoor just seemed to have so much soul and thought put into it. I loved Rick and Morty but one of the creators was accused of being a bigot and was subsequently kicked off of the project. I don’t know the specifics but what a shame.

[Midtowner]

But that attitude affects the entire Metro area. Edmond has the demographics that upscale retail developers and stores look for.

Outside of Edmond, Classen Curve has done okay. Not great, but okay. And that said, does it really? Edmond is not a community of million dollar homes. Maybe out in East Edmond and in the Deer Creek areas on the west side of town in OKC city limits, but Edmond proper? It's more The Trails than Oak Tree. It's more Chimney Hill than Mullholland. Spring Creek might be the closest thing we've had to upscale retail, and even then, its been very hit and miss in there.

Traffic planning in Edmond has always been piss poor, with major roads only on the section lines, and no fast way to get anywhere. No one is interested in adding more cars to that daily commute. Not too many developers live in neighborhoods like The Trails, the daily commute of someone living there is not something that probably crosses their mind.

So it sucks for us who live elsewhere in the Metro have no opportunity to shop at upscale stores, and have to go to Dallas for it. If Edmond were willing in the last 25 years, the Metro would very likely have had an upscale center that would draw people from all over Oklahoma.

You just can't compare a metroplex like DFW to OKC. It's not apples:apples, not even close. You're talking an MSA of 7.6MM people compared to 1.5MM in OKC. If Neiman Marcus wanted a store in the OKC MSA, they could have built something at Penn Square Mall. Probably not Quail Springs anymore as that place is now about 10 years from being a charter school campus or call center.

But if someone wants to put a fast food restaurant up or strip center with laundromat and herbalife place, they are more than fine to approve it. But the expansion of the Spring Creek development on 15th and Bryant? Or, too much traffic or we have to care about the environment and prettiness of the Creek. They don't care about the Creek. They just want control, and go against their own best interest due to NIMBY-ism.

I suspect you're right about the issues at Spring Creek. What I think developers failed to consider is that the local elementary school, Chisholm, has about 800 students and is already at capacity and is performing extremely well. Local residents, myself being one, know that a development such as that which was proposed would be enough to trigger redistricting and no one wants that. It's not development that is really the 3rd rail in Edmond, development is just a symptom for the real issue. Folks love their schools and don't want to see change in them.

And I wouldn't put it all on Edmond. There are not-great developers who get approved for one thing, then come back and apply for entirely different things once the ball is rolling. And no one trusts developers in Edmond because of fiascos like the Coffee Creek development or that residential developers are trending towards the lower end of things and higher end developers are doing ridiculous things like those $500/sq. ft. "cottages" downtown by the railroad tracks. Neither side, developers, nor the city get gold stars in my book.

But to pretend the disfunction is one-sided is disingenuous.

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s just that Edmond has shot down so many developments of great potential the one that makes the angriest is 15th and Bryant shopping mall. That would’ve been an amazing development and extremely successful.

[Midtowner]

It’s just that Edmond has shot down so many developments of great potential the one that makes the angriest is 15th and Bryant shopping mall. That would’ve been an amazing development and extremely successful.

Wasn't that another one which morphed into multifamily housing?

[Plutonic Panda]

Wasn't that another one which morphed into multifamily housing?

Well, yes, they had condos or upscale apartments proposed. But they also had a huge shopping center with underground parking plan, as well as a large landscaping barrier between that and Hayford Park, which I believe would’ve had connections. The people nearby just said no. didn’t want to talk or negotiate. I talked to the developer he was out of Atlanta. I never got direct confirmation of what exact retailers were going to go there, but there were some pretty exciting prospects.

[Midtowner]

Well, yes, they had condos or upscale apartments proposed. But they also had a huge shopping center with underground parking plan, as well as a large landscaping barrier between that and Hayford Park, which I believe would’ve had connections. The people nearby just said no. didn’t want to talk or negotiate. I talked to the developer he was out of Atlanta. I never got direct confirmation of what exact retailers were going to go there, but there were some pretty exciting prospects.

If memory serves, the iteration of that product which motivated the final initiative petition came after the retail project fell though and it was basically 'upscale' multifamily housing. And that's what often happens in Edmond, or in Oklahoma in general. Developers come in with one proposal and that proposal often keeps scaling back until you can't even recognize it anymore.

[chssooner]

If memory serves, the iteration of that product which motivated the final initiative petition came after the retail project fell though and it was basically 'upscale' multifamily housing. And that's what often happens in Edmond, or in Oklahoma in general. Developers come in with one proposal and that proposal often keeps scaling back until you can't even recognize it anymore.

I thought the citizens were so against the retail/mixed-use party, that the developers removed that part to just have housing, like they were recommended, then the city still voted against it.

[Midtowner]

I thought the citizens were so against the retail/mixed-use party, that the developers removed that part to just have housing, like they were recommended, then the city still voted against it.

If it had been $500K+ homes on 1/3 acre lots, it would have sailed through the approval process. That's what's in the area now.

It'll be interesting to see how the Holiday Farm property, which is mostly in OKC Limits on Bryant between Memorial and 33rd.

This would be an opportunity for delelopers to do something without City of Edmond oversight, but still be within an area most consider Edmond proper. They could erase the stigma developers have in this town, and from what I've seen, that's what they're attempting to do. No 24 hour businesses, no outdoor music, no outdoor lighting. They're expanding the Wellington Park neighborhood. I hope it goes well.

[chssooner]

If it had been $500K+ homes on 1/3 acre lots, it would have sailed through the approval process. That's what's in the area now.

It'll be interesting to see how the Holiday Farm property, which is mostly in OKC Limits on Bryant between Memorial and 33rd.

This would be an opportunity for delelopers to do something without City of Edmond oversight, but still be within an area most consider Edmond proper. They could erase the stigma developers have in this town, and from what I've seen, that's what they're attempting to do. No 24 hour businesses, no outdoor music, no outdoor lighting. They're expanding the Wellington Park neighborhood. I hope it goes well.

But those homes aren't good in a retail development. Think OAK. That is what is needed all over Edmond, and was proposed at 15th and Bryant, apartments over retail.

.33 acre lots are not conducive to a mixed-use environment.

[Richard at Remax]

And Samurai Jack.

Drawn Together was one of my favorites too

[Plutonic Panda]

If memory serves, the iteration of that product which motivated the final initiative petition came after the retail project fell though and it was basically 'upscale' multifamily housing. And that's what often happens in Edmond, or in Oklahoma in general. Developers come in with one proposal and that proposal often keeps scaling back until you can't even recognize it anymore.

I could be wrong, but I think that one came after the original proposal to expand the existing shopping center.

[MelOK]

This sounds perfect for the Southeast corner at 15th / I-35. It's heavily treed... but clear it but leave a tree buffer next to both neighborhoods for Parks & walking trail!

[onthestrip]

If memory serves, the iteration of that product which motivated the final initiative petition came after the retail project fell though and it was basically 'upscale' multifamily housing. And that's what often happens in Edmond, or in Oklahoma in general. Developers come in with one proposal and that proposal often keeps scaling back until you can't even recognize it anymore.

No, the big lifestyle center project fell through BECAUSE of the citizen petition to overturn the zoning or site plan, one or the other. Thats when the developer walked away. Then, after that there were multifamily housing only projects proposed that didnt happen because of NIMBY pushback as well. The retail project had opponents doing the "paved paradise to put up a parking lot" thing.

When NIMBYs push back on an ambitious project and get it withdrawn, they usually end up with fast food joints and cheap strip centers instead.

[PhiAlpha]

No, the big lifestyle center project fell through BECAUSE of the citizen petition to overturn the zoning or site plan, one or the other. Thats when the developer walked away. Then, after that there were multifamily housing only projects proposed that didnt happen because of NIMBY pushback as well. The retail project had opponents doing the "paved paradise to put up a parking lot" thing.

When NIMBYs push back on an ambitious project and get it withdrawn, they usually end up with fast food joints and cheap strip centers instead.

If it's on the old golf course...it should be single family housing that's consistent with what is already there...that should pass. If it didn't initially it was probably because residents were holding out hope that the golf course could be saved. Doing some huge lifestyle center with multi family developments there is just dumb and doesn't fit. If I had purchased a house on the golf course, I would already be pissed about the situation and the hit that my home value took. The prospect of my former golf course view turning into a bunch of apartments or a commercial development would be even more infuriating. When people in Mesta Park protested commercial or multi-family developments in Midtown or on 23rd...I thought that was comical and completely out of touch as those have been commercial areas for 70-80 years. I think it's equally dumb to propose commercial or mutlifamily developments that are completely out of character with their surroundings in the middle of a suburban neighborhood that's been around for 30+ years

[PhiAlpha]

If it had been $500K+ homes on 1/3 acre lots, it would have sailed through the approval process. That's what's in the area now.

It'll be interesting to see how the Holiday Farm property, which is mostly in OKC Limits on Bryant between Memorial and 33rd.

This would be an opportunity for delelopers to do something without City of Edmond oversight, but still be within an area most consider Edmond proper. They could erase the stigma developers have in this town, and from what I've seen, that's what they're attempting to do. No 24 hour businesses, no outdoor music, no outdoor lighting. They're expanding the Wellington Park neighborhood. I hope it goes well.

Hallmark Farms?

I grew up in Wellington Park across from the neighborhood park that backs up to that property. Hate that it's likely getting developed because it is a really cool piece of land but I supposed that was inevitable at some point.

[Midtowner]

Hallmark Farms?

I grew up in Wellington Park across from the neighborhood park that backs up to that property. Hate that it's likely getting developed because it is a really cool piece of land but I supposed that was inevitable at some point.

Yeah, I live in a (funny enough) unplatted lot in the middle of a bunch of HOAs adjacent to Wellington. We pay the money and use the pool and trails. Feeding the horses and donkeys was always something the kid loved to do, but Dick Sias couldn't live forever. Talking to some of the old timers in the neighborhood, he apparently ensured that the property would be expensive to develop as he didn't allow any utility easements across the property, even when it wouldn't have cost him much if anything to do it. The residence is for sale for $3.4 million, but if the zoning is approved, I'm guessing it's worth about 3x that.

But hopefully there are cool stores and restaurants the kid can ride her bike to. Whoever is holding on to the property right now needs to mow it soon though or someone might be tempted to report tall weeds/grass.

[onthestrip]

If it's on the old golf course...it should be single family housing that's consistent with what is already there...that should pass. If it didn't initially it was probably because residents were holding out hope that the golf course could be saved. Doing some huge lifestyle center with multi family developments there is just dumb and doesn't fit. If I had purchased a house on the golf course, I would already be pissed about the situation and the hit that my home value took. The prospect of my former golf course view turning into a bunch of apartments or a commercial development would be even more infuriating. When people in Mesta Park protested commercial or multi-family developments in Midtown or on 23rd...I thought that was comical and completely out of touch as those have been commercial areas for 70-80 years. I think it's equally dumb to propose commercial or mutlifamily developments that are completely out of character with their surroundings in the middle of a suburban neighborhood that's been around for 30+ years

I was responding to comments about Spring Creek/Hafer Park area proposals, not coffee creek.

[Plutonic Panda]

If it's on the old golf course...it should be single family housing that's consistent with what is already there...that should pass. If it didn't initially it was probably because residents were holding out hope that the golf course could be saved. Doing some huge lifestyle center with multi family developments there is just dumb and doesn't fit. If I had purchased a house on the golf course, I would already be pissed about the situation and the hit that my home value took. The prospect of my former golf course view turning into a bunch of apartments or a commercial development would be even more infuriating. When people in Mesta Park protested commercial or multi-family developments in Midtown or on 23rd...I thought that was comical and completely out of touch as those have been commercial areas for 70-80 years. I think it's equally dumb to propose commercial or mutlifamily developments that are completely out of character with their surroundings in the middle of a suburban neighborhood that's been around for 30+ years

IIRC, and I’ll look this up later tonight if can find it, what was proposed was to keep the golf course but reduce the number of holes. Smaller homes would have been built on the part of the golf course they would close and a greenway would have been constructed in between the homes to connect with a small “town square” type development at Coffee Creek and Kelly. The buildings would have been 2-3 stories max with retail/restaurant at the bottom and either office space or apartments/condos on top. I don’t ever remember seeing they were set on apartments.

They(the residents) didn’t care about any of it they just said no. Typical Edmond fashion.

Now regarding the other poster claiming it’s due to racism and whatever that’s ridiculous. I’m sure there is some of that is present but I’d chalk this up to just NIMBYism which I don’t agree with those types but to say they’re just a bunch of racists is a bit much. Some of them just live in a little bubble and want it to stay that way. This is something new and they don’t understand it so they don’t like it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Also there was another strip mall type development on the opposite corner and that was shot down. These people are just NIMBYs. They got theirs and don’t want anything else built that could/will make the area busier. Understandable? Sure. Unreasonable? Sure. It’s totally up for debate and my opinion these people are the reason Edmond is going to fall behind if we can’t start to build anything better than cookie cutter strip malls and tract lots. If OKC ever experiences an Austin style boom and a large scale master planned community somewhere pops up somewhere it’ll make Edmond look like Del City in an instant when people see how real, actually high end suburbs really look like and the types of developments that come with them.

[Crocodile Tears]

Also there was another strip mall type development on the opposite corner and that was shot down. These people are just NIMBYs. They got theirs and don’t want anything else built that could/will make the area busier. Understandable? Sure. Unreasonable? Sure. It’s totally up for debate and my opinion these people are the reason Edmond is going to fall behind if we can’t start to build anything better than cookie cutter strip malls and tract lots. If OKC ever experiences an Austin style boom and a large scale master planned community somewhere pops up somewhere it’ll make Edmond look like Del City in an instant when people see how real, actually high end suburbs really look like and the types of developments that come with them.

That is a great point. I also think a lot of people who live in these areas and oppose new development don't realize a lot of people coming up behind them do want that type of development and will pay a premium to live close to them. I think a lot of people who are concerned about property values are actually hurting their property values by opposing good plans that are close to them.

a new, well executed development that is easy to access is a huge asset for any existing residential property.

[PhiAlpha]

IIRC, and I’ll look this up later tonight if can find it, what was proposed was to keep the golf course but reduce the number of holes. Smaller homes would have been built on the part of the golf course they would close and a greenway would have been constructed in between the homes to connect with a small “town square” type development at Coffee Creek and Kelly. The buildings would have been 2-3 stories max with retail/restaurant at the bottom and either office space or apartments/condos on top. I don’t ever remember seeing they were set on apartments.

They(the residents) didn’t care about any of it they just said no. Typical Edmond fashion.

Now regarding the other poster claiming it’s due to racism and whatever that’s ridiculous. I’m sure there is some of that is present but I’d chalk this up to just NIMBYism which I don’t agree with those types but to say they’re just a bunch of racists is a bit much. Some of them just live in a little bubble and want it to stay that way. This is something new and they don’t understand it so they don’t like it.

Exactly. What a dumb argument lol.

[Plutonic Panda]

Exactly. What a dumb argument lol.

Yeah that was bizarre. I know some on here may think I just want Edmond to become some major big time city and anyone who opposes any mixed use development must be a NIMBY but I understand reasons for people wanting single family neighborhoods to stay low density single family areas. It’s just irritating that EVERY single development in Edmond and there’s been very nice ones that have been proposed that aren’t the typical type get opposed especially anything with apartments.

[onthestrip]

That is a great point. I also think a lot of people who live in these areas and oppose new development don't realize a lot of people coming up behind them do want that type of development and will pay a premium to live close to them. I think a lot of people who are concerned about property values are actually hurting their property values by opposing good plans that are close to them.

a new, well executed development that is easy to access is a huge asset for any existing residential property.

Very true. There's a vocal minority that laments all the redevelopments and investments being made in downtown, as if its harming the entire town. They dont realize that its 1)downtown and this is the first place you might see some density, 2) that theres demand for this stuff, and 3) like you mention, they think this is hurting nearby property values but in fact are doing a good job at increasing values.