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  1. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    But my point is, if you look at the alternative, you're just as bad off. If we don't get in compliance, you'll have to go with the passport and you'll have to direct offer up the exact same type of information to the federal government in order to get your passport in order to fly/etc. That's my main reason for seeing this whole thing is complete pointless at this point. We've spent YEARS arguing the case, but it hasn't changed anything.

    Really, i think i'd rather have a federal ID myself and not have so many different rules between states. Things like what age you can legally have a learner's permit, points/etc. In some cases, standardization of laws just makes more sense so they aren't sporadic. Some people view it as a state's rights issue. That's fine and i can respect that. I just feel like there's a time at which it's time to let the case go and move on to fighting for something more important. Let's talk education and infrastructure funding. Lets talk term limits. Lets talk racial and gender issues. And that's being said based on what i said at the top. One way or another, you're going to be giving up this information, so why not just get in compliance and move on?

    As Mitchell said, your digital life has far more broad and detailed information than the government could ever hope to collect on you. Last time i checked, the government didn't spend effort collecting your browsing data. If you're a "big brother" kind of person, think about all that digital data. It could be used for so much more than just throwing the right advertisement your way. GPS data for where you drive, who you call, email, etc. The list goes on and on. And if it's been collected, that means it's been replicated, backed-up, shared with another party, replicated again, backed-up again, etc. That little picture you took with your phone made its way around the world in about 10 minutes folks.

  2. #77

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by TU 'cane View Post
    I don't participate in social media (yea, I'm one of those so called "weirdos"), so stuff like this matters to people like me.
    Posting on a message board like this one is basically the precursor to modern social media, and makes you more trackable than you might think.

  3. #78

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCole View Post
    Meanwhile, Apple/Google/Microsoft/Amazon/Facebook/Twitter have been tracking everything everybody does for 10+ years. It is our reality. Nothing is private. Get over it.
    Not if you know what you're doing.

  4. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    Not if you know what you're doing.
    About the only way you stay *completely* 'off the grid' is...pay cash for everything, and I mean everything, and when you get your cash, never use an ATM, use a direct bank teller, and when you get paid, don't use direct deposit (unless your employer doesn't give you a choice and won't issue you a physical check anymore). And even *then* the IRS knows almost all it needs about you - then again, they did a long time ago - waaaaaaay before Apple became more than just a fruit in a pie.

  5. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    Not if you know what you're doing.
    Actually, what you think you're doing to "protect" your data.....not really doing anything. If you have an internet service (either at home or on your phone), guess what, logs track everything. Every cell provider, ISP, etc tracks and stores data for some period of time. Remember that tidbit about it being replicated too? As someone else said, unless you live in the 1960's and dont use any plastic for anything at all (or a bank), then you're being tracked. Ever cashed that paycheck, well i guess you got tracked by the bank or the check casher.

    The illusion of privacy is just that. Which is probably partly why the younger generation wasn't freaked out by the cell phone "scandal". The reaction was more, "well duh".

  6. #81

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    Actually, what you think you're doing to "protect" your data.....not really doing anything. If you have an internet service (either at home or on your phone), guess what, logs track everything. Every cell provider, ISP, etc tracks and stores data for some period of time. Remember that tidbit about it being replicated too? As someone else said, unless you live in the 1960's and dont use any plastic for anything at all (or a bank), then you're being tracked. Ever cashed that paycheck, well i guess you got tracked by the bank or the check casher.

    The illusion of privacy is just that. Which is probably partly why the younger generation wasn't freaked out by the cell phone "scandal". The reaction was more, "well duh".
    If you go through a proxy you limit the amount of data out there about you. If you do Dave Ramsey's course then you use cash for most things anyway. No, I don't think you can be totally off the grid, but you can certainly mitigate it. But your philosophy is that if someone knows a little about you then you might as well give it all up.

    I can just see you if you had been in Germany in 1938. "Hey guys, might as well get in line and goose step. No use fighting it, you're gonna have to do it anyway."

  7. #82

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Just to be clear yet again, the Real ID is NOT a federal ID. There is no federal ID database, and information is still kept at the state level like it is now. It's a series of requirement and standards for STATES to follow when issuing and creating IDs.

  8. #83

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Oklahoma has had plenty of time to get into compliance. It's 2016, now we're scrambling to get our ducks in a row.

    Oklahoma put more energy into non compliance than they did compliance; evident by the passage of a law in 2007 that said our state wouldn’t comply with the Real ID Act.

    In the meantime, if you haven't done so, go ahead, get your passport.

  9. #84

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Wow I never realized so many people went to extreme ends to be unidentifiable" I have nothing to hide, and I'm certainly not going to make my everyday life more difficult because some data corp or whoever might find my address.

  10. #85

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by bradh View Post
    Wow I never realized so many people went to extreme ends to be unidentifiable" I have nothing to hide, and I'm certainly not going to make my everyday life more difficult because some data corp or whoever might find my address.
    I don't think I go to extreme ends. Not partaking in social media is just a choice I made long ago for various reasons. I ultimately have no need for it. And it's a bigger scale than just "not having anything to hide," which is the de facto argument many people go to in discussions like these.

    And methods like using cash have other benefits than just minimizing a footprint. I see some reference to Dave Ramsay - that being one of the things. It can help you budget weekly and make you think twice before you purchase items when you have to hand over physical cash and you realize you'll have less of it. And, it's virtually impossible in this country to be completely off-grid. But, people should have the right to try and minimize themselves if they so wish without being criticized and mocked.

    But, back on this subject, I have a passport. Which yes already has that info, but at least I don't have to worry about compliance for now.

  11. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    Not if you know what you're doing.
    Being 'off the grid' in this context is mostly a myth IMO. Sure, you can use cash..... But, do you own a home? Do you have utilities in your name? Do you own a car? Do you own a cell phone? If 'yes' - then, sorry friend, you're on the grid.

    In a few clicks I can find a lot about most people utilizing those accounts and one's similar. And.... the resources grow by the day. A very useful database I utilize on a growing basis is tag reader scanners. I have tracked down many people for clients simply by knowing their vehicle tag and then searching it in databases all over the country. The history of those tag scans also often gives you a pretty decent look at their routine, where they live, who they visit and where they work. It's spotty at this point, but growing at a very rapid pace.

    As for cash. I'm a Dave Ramsey fan and have mentioned him in posts before for his common sense approach to finances. That said. I'm not a fan of his eagerness to use mostly cash. I find I start the week with $200 and by Friday its gone and I have no idea where it went. I found I needed to keep an electronic registry just so I'd know where the money went. Well, if I'm doing that, then I'm creating a digital footprint of my spending, so I might as well be using my card - which is my preferred method of payment.

  12. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    If you go through a proxy you limit the amount of data out there about you. If you do Dave Ramsey's course then you use cash for most things anyway. No, I don't think you can be totally off the grid, but you can certainly mitigate it. But your philosophy is that if someone knows a little about you then you might as well give it all up.

    I can just see you if you had been in Germany in 1938. "Hey guys, might as well get in line and goose step. No use fighting it, you're gonna have to do it anyway."
    That's some first rate bull. And a big screw you for making a comparison to Hitler. Because a topic about a driver's license (and again, i would bet about 10000% that you dont actually know the facts on what is involved in this and are acting on what you read others say and not for you reading (and understanding) the law itself) is totally the same thing as a dictator that tried to commit genocide, is personally responsible for so many deaths, and is in history as one of the worst examples of what mankind can do.

    yeah, totally the same thing....ass.

  13. #88

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    That's some first rate bull. And a big screw you for making a comparison to Hitler. Because a topic about a driver's license (and again, i would bet about 10000% that you dont actually know the facts on what is involved in this and are acting on what you read others say and not for you reading (and understanding) the law itself) is totally the same thing as a dictator that tried to commit genocide, is personally responsible for so many deaths, and is in history as one of the worst examples of what mankind can do.

    yeah, totally the same thing....ass.
    whether the poster's comparison was fair or not, you need to tone it down. certainly you can make your point without resorting to "screw you's" and assorted name calling.

  14. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    If you go through a proxy you limit the amount of data out there about you. If you do Dave Ramsey's course then you use cash for most things anyway. No, I don't think you can be totally off the grid, but you can certainly mitigate it. But your philosophy is that if someone knows a little about you then you might as well give it all up.

    I can just see you if you had been in Germany in 1938. "Hey guys, might as well get in line and goose step. No use fighting it, you're gonna have to do it anyway."
    Glad to see Godwin's Law go into full effect on this thread!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

  15. #90

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    Glad to see Godwin's Law go into full effect on this thread!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
    Yeah, now we just need a 'wake up, sheeple' and the Ben Franklin misquote about liberty and security for the trifecta.

  16. #91

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    Glad to see Godwin's Law go into full effect on this thread!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
    Oh lighten up, Francis. It was a loose reference to Seinfeld. I don't recall the exact thing Jerry said but he made some comment to George about if they'd been in Nazi Germany he would see George goose stepping by in line with the others who would just go with the flow to get by.

  17. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    whether the poster's comparison was fair or not, you need to tone it down. certainly you can make your point without resorting to "screw you's" and assorted name calling.
    I will not accept being compared to Hitler, period.

  18. #93

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    I will not accept being compared to Hitler, period.
    the post didn't compare you to hitler.

    the post seemed (to me, at least) as a reductio ad absurdum of "nothing you do is private, so get over it" with the scenario "nazis are entrenched in 1930's german government, so get over it"

    i'm not taking a stance as to whether or not that's a fair or valid comparison to make, but it certainly didn't seem to warrant you flipping your lid over.

  19. #94

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    the post didn't compare you to hitler.
    It did compare him to a Nazi collaborator.

  20. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Thank you jerrywall.

    ANYWAY, with that nonsense put aside, lets get back to discussing the actual topic.

    So my whole point in this thing is that if you educate yourself on what the law is saying and dont just rely on second-hand information or opinion posts here, then i think your perspective on the issue would change quite a bit, being very much less against it. And if you consider what your alternatives are, you're going to be happier with the new law than the alternatives.....but again you have to process all of the details on what each means and not just jump to a conclusion against "big brother". I dont like taxes, but i understand their need and pay them anyway (whether i want to or not).

    Here's a high level detail rundown, since it's been a while since anyone discussed the main points.
    Data Requirements - nothing crazy here
    Full legal name
    Signature
    DoB
    Gender
    Unique ID number
    Residence address
    Front facing photo
    security features

    Documentation to get the ID - this information will be scanned into the STATE DMV database. But of course, the state already has this information. It's about keeping a second copy in a single place rather than it being spread out. It's really more duplication of data than obtaining it....you've already given it all up.
    Photo ID, or non photo ID with full legal name and DOB....ie Birth Certificate
    documentation of DOB, See above
    documentation of legal status, ie SSN
    Documentation with legal residence

    Document Verification
    Most of this is left to the discretion of the state. Even your SSN verification can be done via tax forms. Things like your I-9, mortgage, etc work for some of this

    Linking of Databases
    Each state agrees to share data with other states. Note that's STATES, not Federal. The crazy part of this wasn't even signed into law, and this portion isn't even being considered a factor for "certification".

    Foreign Sharing
    Canada and Mexico are allows to join the states in compliance with the NADLA. I'm not a fan of this, but this law came in 1994 so it predated me even having a driver's license by a few years. There is oversight on this though through that law. For more information, research NADLA.

    That's a 10k foot level view. PLEASE read more on your own. There are many sources of LEGIT information out there. I would suggest you read the official sources rather than information on wikipedia or special interest websites. Like any research project, the validity of the source makes a BIG difference. I do not see the big brother aspect in this other than the states that are anti-fed (and often those being Repiblican....not saying that in a partisan way, its just a statistic) wanting to keep feds out of their basket.

    So what happens if we do not comply? Your ONLY option is to go out and get a passport.
    Give them your state ID....say what? Am i going to have that now?...shock
    Birth Certificate, guess what, the data is captured from it for certification and processing. You dont just get handed a passport 5 minutes after you walk into an office. It's a drawn-out process to say the least. Anyone that's done this knows it can take at LEAST a month.
    2x2 photo...walgreens will do these, but you do have to pay for it.
    Fees, it's almost $200 right now for a new application. Renewals are almost as bad.
    And all of that information is processed a million times over in several federal databases and shared across agencies before it's approved. Your application just made its way around every federal agency faster than you can say "i feel violated".

    So again, read the actual law and then let's come back and talk. I think you'll find there to be a very different story than our ass-backwards legislature has led you to believe. These are the same people that still are trying to say fracking doesn't cause earthquakes. #facepalm

  21. #96

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    So again, read the actual law and then let's come back and talk. I think you'll find there to be a very different story than our ass-backwards legislature has led you to believe. These are the same people that still are trying to say fracking doesn't cause earthquakes. #facepalm
    Agreed. I just don't see the problem with this.

  22. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    This story from KFOR actually predates this last tirade on the conversation, but it looks like the state is already on-board with getting compliant this legislative session.

    http://kfor.com/2017/01/03/oklahoma-...ugh-june-2017/

    There isn't much in there, nor in the letter the state wrote back to the feds. Only says that the governor, house, and senate are all in agreement to resolve the issues this session. So i guess our entire discussion on this ended up being a waste of time because we're going to become compliant within the next few months anyway.

  23. #98

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied


  24. Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    I wish one of the articles would elaborate on what the proposed changes at the state level are that bring us into compliance. I'd like to see it spelled out as to where we were lacking (beyond the rhetoric of big brother b.s.).

  25. #100

    Default Re: Oklahoma’s request for Real ID Act extension denied

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    I wish one of the articles would elaborate on what the proposed changes at the state level are that bring us into compliance. I'd like to see it spelled out as to where we were lacking (beyond the rhetoric of big brother b.s.).
    Why do you have such a hardon for this? You have whined and cried about anyone disagreeing with you this whole thread. Your basic argument is, "It's gonna happen anyway so you might as well get over it." That's never a good reason to be okay with something. Do you have some vested interest in this or something? Other than being afraid that Oklahoma is going to look backwards to the rest of the counrty. That's too often a motivator around here and it's a bad one.

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