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  1. #101

    Default Re: Bus System

    Sid: I am sorry--really--that I erroneously nit-picked your deep appreciation of the current Bus System and the way it works.

    I am, however, (personally) glad--maybe evey happy? like virtually happy?--that you have adopted (and or adapted to =) not only this somewhat anachronistic, yet completely functional (rather than fictional) means of Public Transportation . . . But the use of =) as a way of saying that you got the "joke".

    And that from a dude who only rides The Five (5).
    Mostly Northbound.

    (Also the person responsible for Two (2) Westbound Turn Lanes (instead of only one) from The Exit Ramp of The Hefner Parkway Onto Memorial. With one email, a little waiting time and maybe $1,000 worth of time and labor--not graffiti: Sanctioned and Performed by Straight/CommonSense Thinkers in Local Government. With no carrots, sticks or bribes. =)

    (Warning: More to follow on this topic . . . =)

  2. #102

    Default Re: Bus System

    Sid: Your opinion didn't sound arrogant at all.
    (Groucho Marx take/give: In fact . . . I didn't hear any sound at all! =)

    Your "opinion" simply sounded reasonable . . .
    In the sense of "Come . . . let us 'reason" together" . . .

  3. #103

    Default Re: Bus System

    Dang.
    Looks like we are caught in "The Cross-Post Traffic" (to parapharse that Jimi dude from Seattle =)

  4. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by sidburgess View Post
    It bothers me when people plan millions of dollars of projects or changes when they have never once even tried it out. Seen the people that use it daily - rely on it daily.
    Far more people don't ride the bus, than do ride the bus. I would say that ratio is at least 200 to 1. Instead of focusing on the one riding the bus, appealing to the 200 that don't might create more riders. After all, the current bus system already doesn't attract ANY of the 200 riders. If two can be gained while sacrificing one then that is progress (unless of course you are the one, then it sucks). But then again, it is a mass transit system, not a personal transit system.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Bus System

    Maybe a free lottery ticket with the purchase of a bus pass . . ?
    For the funding . . . ? (For the children . . . and their future . . .?)

  6. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by sidburgess View Post
    Kerry, I don't disagree. I want a grid system. No argument there. I also am interested in an Urban Core model, though would definitely want to see the details.

    However, short of a massive influx in funding, you are not going to change the efficiency of the entire system more than single digit percentages. (IMHO)

    I continue to ask, what is stopping that 200 from riding today? We both want the same thing but I am going to take a different approach. I want to get as many people riding the current system as possible. We are no where near our potential ridership with those that can use the bus system we have in place today.

    Isn't that the crux of the problem? If people aren't riding it now (be it perception, routes or whatever) how is getting more people riding it going to solve the inherent problems it has (Mayor and Council have acknowledged as much). If ridership improves, then they will see that as validation that it isn't broken. otherwise, there is no "incentive" to get the powers that be to change.

    The inherent challenge I see with any form of Mass Transit is multi-faceted:

    1) Does it come where I am?
    2) Does it go where I want to go?
    3) Does it fit my schedule (run when I need it to run)?
    4) Does it do so with the least amount of delay (time/transfers etc)?

    Until those basic questions can be answered in the affirmative, those that have options are going to continue to use the options they have available.

  7. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC;4552541) Does it come where I am?
    2) Does it go where I want to go?
    3) Does it fit my schedule (run when I need it to run)?
    4) Does it do so with the least amount of delay (time/transfers etc)?[/quote

    Until those basic questions can be answered in the affirmative, those that have options are going to continue to use the options they have available.
    If you live in the urban core, and your destination is in the urban core, my system will run within 4 blocks of your home every 15 minutes, and will go within 4 blocks of your destination every 15 minutes.
    If you live outside the urban core you either need to own a car or move to the urban core.

    If your destination is outside the urban core then you either need to own a car or do business with entities located in the urban core.

    The number of transfers in my system depends on how far you want to go. If you stay within your immediate neighborhood, then no transfer is need at all. If you stay within your part of town you would transfer at a hub to another rapid service local bus (but only if your destination was not within walking distance of the local hub). If you are going across town you would have to transfer at the central hub.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post

    If you live in the urban core, and your destination is in the urban core, my system will run within 4 blocks of your home every 15 minutes, and will go within 4 blocks of your destination every 15 minutes.
    If you live outside the urban core you either need to own a car or move to the urban core.

    If your destination is outside the urban core then you either need to own a car or do business with entities located in the urban core.

    The number of transfers in my system depends on how far you want to go. If you stay within your immediate neighborhood, then no transfer is need at all. If you stay within your part of town you would transfer at a hub to another rapid service local bus (but only if your destination was not within walking distance of the local hub). If you are going across town you would have to transfer at the central hub.
    Are you planning on having multiple local buses? A complete lap on many of the routes on page 3 of the thread is likely to take 15 minutes in a personal vehicle; however with the stops at the pickup and delivery points, plus time to allow boarding/exiting may be closer to 25/30 for a bus.

  9. #109

    Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Are you planning on having multiple local buses? A complete lap on many of the routes on page 3 of the thread is likely to take 15 minutes in a personal vehicle; however with the stops at the pickup and delivery points, plus time to allow boarding/exiting may be closer to 25/30 for a bus.
    His grid system would require at least 3, and possibly 4 buses per route to maintain a 15 minute turn-around.

  10. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Are you planning on having multiple local buses? A complete lap on many of the routes on page 3 of the thread is likely to take 15 minutes in a personal vehicle; however with the stops at the pickup and delivery points, plus time to allow boarding/exiting may be closer to 25/30 for a bus.
    The routes I mapped were just examples and not the actual routes. It would take someone with the data, GIS, and route planning software to create ideal routes. But my example proves it can be done. My longest route is only 5.5 miles but most are around 4 miles, and some even down in the 3 mile range. At 25mph (the slowest possible speed) it would take 12 minutes to go 5 miles. On the 4 mile routes it would be 9 minutes 35 seconds.

    Of course, it is possible that not every hub could be served by just 4 routes but in my vision I would not have two local buses on the same route. If a route was too long to be completed in 15 minutes than it would require spliting it into 2 routes. But just for fun, let's say there were 5 local routes per hub. That would still just be 40 local buses plus 14 hub connectors for a total of 54 buses. That is still nearly half of the 99 buses metro transit has now. The grid system prefered by others would require over 150 buses.

    Also the hub placement I used were just examples. Once again, it would take someone with the data, GIS, and route planning software to pick the ideal spot.

    RCJunkie, I think you are refering to the hub connectors when you say it would take 3 or 4 buses. Those buses are non-stop so they wouldn't be stopping for anything other than traffic and they would only run every 30 minutes anyhow. There is no 15 minute service between hubs.

  11. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    If you live outside the urban core you either need to own a car or move to the urban core.
    Do you not realize how ridiculous this would sound to people living on food stamps and minimum wage in run down apartment complexes and neighborhoods on the north side? Same situation with a lot of people in Mid-Del, Choctaw, Bethany. Imagine telling such a family they should just go ahead and go see if anything is available at Legacy at Arts Quarter, or that maybe they could find a fixer upper in Gatewood.

  12. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by shane453 View Post
    Do you not realize how ridiculous this would sound to people living on food stamps and minimum wage in run down apartment complexes and neighborhoods on the north side? Same situation with a lot of people in Mid-Del, Choctaw, Bethany. Imagine telling such a family they should just go ahead and go see if anything is available at Legacy at Arts Quarter, or that maybe they could find a fixer upper in Gatewood.
    From what I have read so far from the bus riders, these types of people aren't riding the bus in any significant numbers anyhow. However, the urban core of OKC has some of the most affordable housing in the entire metro area. If Mid-Del, Choctaw, or Bethany want bus service they are free to fund it and have it connect to an OKC hub. Or do you think OKC residents should pay for bus service in other towns?

    Or it is just possible you don't know what is meant by 'urban core'. The urban core is over 50 sq miles.


  13. #113

    Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by sidburgess View Post
    I continue to ask, what is stopping that 200 from riding today? We both want the same thing but I am going to take a different approach. I want to get as many people riding the current system as possible. We are no where near our potential ridership with those that can use the bus system we have in place today.
    One of the things we've barely talked about here is bus stops. Some of them have nothing, some have a little bench with advertising, rarely you see a covered stop. What stops people who don't normally ride a bus from riding one? Protection from the elements is one thing. How many months of the year is it comfortable to sit outside on a bench, or stand on the side of the road hoping a bus will come along eventually? How about signage that allows you to easily see what a bus's route is and when you can expect it to arrive at the stop? When I use buses in other cities, I really depend on the signage. We have nothing like that. My kids in Chicago have apps on their phones to track their bus. They know exactly how long it will take to walk to the stop and they can see where their bus is. When it's a reasonable distance away, we leave for the stop. We need more than just knowing that every 15 to 30 minutes a bus going somewhere will go by a bus stop near you.

  14. Default Re: Bus System

    No doubt about it Betts, bus stops have to be more than worn place on the side of the road strewn with litter. There should be an app with real time GPS maps showing the exact location of every bus and the anticipated arrival time at each stop. Bus stops should at a minimum include a bench enclosed on three sides with glass and lit (best using a solar panel on the roof). It would also be helpful to have a system and route map posted. Buses should have an automated system that let rides know which stop is approaching and neighborhoods and businesses close to the stop.

    The stops and buses should also have WiFi available. If Delta can provide internet service at 36,000 feet a city bus stop should have it also. Pack the pepople in and then making a killing selling advertising to a captive audience. Maybe Google should go into the bus business.

  15. Default Re: Bus System

    Thought I would pass this along.
    From Congress for the New Urbanism, page 63

    While communities should focus more transportation
    dollars on small-scale solutions, transit
    agencies must completely transform their image.
    America is not getting on the bus. Transit is losing
    its share while offering a product that has changed
    very little in 40 years. It is not enough for transit
    proponents to point fingers at suburban sprawl.
    We can’t ask transit to be the metaphorical bridge
    to the 21st century while riding a system locked in
    the past. Transit needs to appeal both to its existing
    market and to new markets. That means re-orienting
    the focus of our transit systems to serve travel within
    the suburbs as well as to the central city.

    For transit to appeal to people in the vast
    majority of places in America where growth is
    occurring, it should include bus service that people
    find just as enticing as rail. Buses need to be faster,
    more frequent, more reliable, safer, and more comfortable
    using existing technology. For example,
    technology already can provide traffic signals to
    speed the bus trip by turning the signal green by
    remote control. Bus transit centers should be as
    comfortable as the best rail stations
    . Printed schedules
    must be widely and conveniently available.
    Low-floor buses with high windows offer a better
    ride. Small neighborhood buses create transit solutions
    appropriate to the scale of the neighborhood.

    A new technology provides real-time information
    at bus stops that informs riders when the next bus
    will arrive.

    We can begin transforming transportation
    by funding more small streets, more connections,
    and different, not simply more, transit. But the
    transportation formula for livable, vibrant communities
    begins by rewarding the short trip and
    the pedestrian
    .
    Page 83

    Transportation is one of the most controversial elements in community development.
    In New Urbanist communities, transportation planning focuses on reducing dependence
    on the automobile, increasing public transit use, and developing a more flexible
    road system. These actions help reduce local traffi c problems, conserve energy, improve
    air quality, and encourage people to walk, bike, or take the bus to get around within
    their neighborhood or district
    .
    Page 102

    Some urban areas have taken a different
    approach to public transportation. They realize
    that they strengthen their economic viability and
    resilience with diverse transportation networks.
    Transit is treated as a precious resource.

    One way to make transit an attractive option
    is to return to a lesson learned earlier in this century:
    Minimize the distance that patrons must walk.
    Shops or offices can be located close to bus and
    rail stations, thereby increasing the density of
    surrounding development
    .

  16. #116

    Default Re: Bus System

    How could anyone possibly disagree with that?
    (Why . . . It falls under the category presented by Thomas Paine under the heading "Common Sense.")

    Just as long as They don't attempt to screw around with Route 5 that services many diverse sub-communities to and from The Hospital/Shopping/SalesTaxPaying to the north and what will be the torn up, redeveloping, olde-downetowne, areas to the south.

    Take a quick visit to St. Paul to obtain a clearer picture of The Transition Zone. =)

  17. #117

    Default Re: Bus System

    Heck, I would have been happy with just some park and rides from the major suburbs (Edmond, Norman, MWC, and Yukon). Express bus that went downtown every 10 minutes during the workday. Get an HOV/Bus lane and beat the traffic.

  18. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by bretthexum View Post
    Heck, I would have been happy with just some park and rides from the major suburbs (Edmond, Norman, MWC, and Yukon). Express bus that went downtown every 10 minutes during the workday. Get an HOV/Bus lane and beat the traffic.
    That would be counter-productive from an urbanization stand point. Park and rides create the very low density development we are trying to get rid of.

  19. #119

    Default Re: Bus System

    Why not just cut off the water and the sewer service?
    It would probably have more immediate results . . .
    Wouldn't it?

  20. Default Re: Bus System

    Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-lead...#ixzz1YHCW9tMF

    Oklahoma City leaders unsure how to improve outdated Metro Transit system
    (Oklahoman, 6/8/11)
    Rick Cain, director of Metro Transit, said the agency is doing better in terms of passenger counts, with average ridership going from 14 passengers per hour a few years ago to 16.22 per hour this past year. He said he is working to improve that figure next year to 18 per hour.
    I asked this question before, but this is considered Mass Transit?


    http://newsok.com/metro-transit-help...adlines_widget

    Metro Transit helps serve a need in Oklahoma City community (Oklahoman, Rick Cain, 9/17/11)
    One bus is the equivalent of taking 35 cars off the road.
    Maybe if the bus is filled to capacity but Mr. Cain stated in his presentation to the City Council, that they only average 16.22 riders/hr. What is the capacity of a City bus? Looks like we are taking fewer cars than that off the road and adding how many buses to the road, possibly adding to the pollution?

    Ridership on ozone free ride days increased by 12 percent in June, 22 percent in July and 10 percent in August compared to the same days in 2010.
    Sounds impressive but lets see now, that means the average number of passengers increased by 2 person/hr in June & Aug and a whopping 3.5 people/hr in July? And only on those days when it was free?

    And while our system doesn't work for everyone because of a limited service area and the lack of frequent buses, it serves a need in our community with an average of 10,000 daily riders...
    How many buses does the City have? How many are on the road during the day? Does the math work out (10,000/day with 16.22/hr)?

    There has to be a better way. Suggestions?

  21. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Why not just cut off the water and the sewer service?
    It would probably have more immediate results . . .
    Wouldn't it?
    Yep, but that would be against the law.

  22. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    There has to be a better way. Suggestions?
    Larry, if you look at the first few pages of this thread I have presented my ideas on a neighborhood centric bus system for the urban core. The key to ubanism is in making the neighborhood functional again.

  23. #123

    Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    That would be counter-productive from an urbanization stand point. Park and rides create the very low density development we are trying to get rid of.
    Yet almost all decent mass transit systems have them. Look at Minneapolis. One of the best in the country.

  24. Default Re: Bus System

    Quote Originally Posted by bretthexum View Post
    Yet almost all decent mass transit systems have them. Look at Minneapolis. One of the best in the country.
    I know, perplexing isn't it? Thank goodness we now have the "new urbanism" to guide us so we don't make the same mistakes. Making suburbia more convenient will only result in more suburbia. Increasing production of money losing products is the best way to go out of business.

  25. #125

    Default Re: Bus System

    I have an interesting side question, Kerry, where are growing populations supposed to live once "downtown" is full? Either towns have to grow or new towns have to appear. At some point towns have to grow outward. By definition, aren't the new fringes of a town going to be "the suburbs?" I guess I am needing a better definition of suburbs to thoroughly appreciate the finer details of this discussion (which I am enjoying :-) ) And, I think, I'm tring to find the moral center in all this and ain't havin' much luck.

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