Tipping

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^^
This is true. I know a number of servers and bartenders who make $60K, $75K and more. And anybody who thinks a restaurant could support dozens of people at that wage by banning tips and raising prices has rocks in their head.

[TheTravellers]

Then my question is, what gives the states right to the federal government to control wages? I would like to know what "loophole" they found to dictate wages to the states. I will do some research.
C. T.

I'm guessing this decision has something to do with the Fed Gov't being able to enforce the FLSA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...arby_Lumber_Co.

And from what I saw in perusing OK labor law is that there are a lot of references that "defer to" the FLSA or Federal law, they basically say "We follow the FLSA" or "We follow the Federal law with regard to blahblahblah", so that's probably how companies that are only in one state are subject to the FLSA or state laws/statutes/rules that are the same as or defer to the FLSA.

[ctchandler]

I'm guessing this decision has something to do with the Fed Gov't being able to enforce the FLSA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...arby_Lumber_Co.

And from what I saw in perusing OK labor law is that there are a lot of references that "defer to" the FLSA or Federal law, they basically say "We follow the FLSA" or "We follow the Federal law with regard to blahblahblah", so that's probably how companies that are only in one state are subject to the FLSA or state laws/statutes/rules that are the same as or defer to the FLSA.

TheTravellers,
I have no problem if our elected officials choose to follow the federal guidelines.
C. T.

[dankrutka]

I haven't read that article and honestly probably won't because this isn't a big issue to me in this single instance but it just gets annoying seeing people wanting to ban everything they like.

First, it's not about "banning everything," but making wise policy decisions for our society. There's no big legal difference between banning tips and requiring safe working conditions, overtime pay, and minimum wage. Or from preventing child labor. Do you think those are instances of "banning everything" also? Anyway, if you don't believe there should be pragmatic labor laws at all then that's fine, but just understand that it is totally within legal norms to ban tipping. We're just so socially used to tipping that we accept it.

Anyway, since you won't listen to the fact-filled podcast I posted, here's a shorter video from the new, great show Adam Ruins Everything:


'

[Plutonic Panda]

First, it's not about "banning everything," but making wise policy decisions for our society. There's no big legal difference between banning tips and requiring safe working conditions, overtime pay, and minimum wage. Or from preventing child labor. Do you think those are instances of "banning everything" also? Anyway, if you don't believe there should be smart labor laws at all then that's fine, but just understand that it is totally within legal norms to ban tipping. We're just so used to tipping that we accept it.

Anyway, since you won't listen to the fact-filled podcast I posted, here's a shorter video from the new, great show Adam Ruins Everything:


'

Listen man, I get that there are probably some good points that support banning tips. But unless it is physically hurting people or the like, if I want to tip, I should be able to. It makes me feel better to reward someone for doing a good job and it is just not something that needs to be banned because a group of people don't like it. I'll check out that video though later. I'm at the library and I forgot my headphones.

[dankrutka]

Listen man, I get that there are probably some good points that support banning tips. But unless it is physically hurting people or the like, if I want to tip, I should be able to. It makes me feel better to reward someone for doing a good job and it is just not something that needs to be banned because a group of people don't like it. I'll check out that video though later. I'm at the library and I forgot my headphones.

Watch the video, one of the biggest things research has shown is that people do not tip for better service (it accounts for less than 2% of tip differences), but instead tip far more based on factors like the race of their server (whites get more than black people when factoring in service) or physical appearance (women considered attractive make more than women considered less so). For servers, tipping encourages discriminatory pay, unstable income, and very few people reward good service. While you may think it's strange to take tipping away, do tip the employee who helped you find a great pair of jeans or the person at the DMV who helped with a problem? Not tipping is actually thr norm for you and all of us.

[Plutonic Panda]

Watch the video, one of the biggest things research has shown is that people do not tip for better service (it accounts for less than 2% of tip differences), but instead tip far more based on factors like the race of their server (whites get more than black people when factoring in service) or physical appearance (women considered attractive make more than women considered less so). For servers, tipping encourages discriminatory pay, unstable income, and very few people reward good service. While you may think it's strange to take tipping away, do tip the employee who helped you find a great pair of jeans or the person at the DMV who helped with a problem? Not tipping is actually thr norm for you and all of us.

I have never tipped based on race, sexual orientation, or anything like that.

[dankrutka]

I have never tipped based on race, sexual orientation, or anything like that.

I am sure for most people this is subconscious. But that was also only one of many points. The main one being that people don't tip based on the quality of service, so why not just pay a set wage like other comparable service professions?

[Uptowner]

I'm seeing the opening scene of reservoir dogs here. And dantrutka it totally Mr. Pink.

I don't think he realizes it's a skilled trade and it's extremely hard work to do it well. Why do mostly young people do it? Because it's extremely hard work. And it can chip away at your dignity by offering a sultan's service to jerks who don't tip on principle.

I think he's also is oblivious to the fact the those jeans he mentioned at the gap would cost about 15 bucks if it were the norm to tip retail.

A rough template for a Restraunt cost runs 30/30/30(net after tax) food/booze overhead and labor. And you hope to Christ by the time you pay for maintainence and improvements you keep a nickel on the dollar. Obviously for prime steak the wine and steak costs are astronomical but the price per person makes up for it. At McDowell's(coming to America reference, boom) food cost would be under %10 but they're always fighting the labor beast because it takes a lot of $1 cheeseburgers to fulfill the payroll. But your average joint is 30/30/30.

Now let's say at your 30/30/30 store, server labor jumps from 2.13 to $12 an hour (WHICH btw no good server in town would work for btw, they would use their college degrees and go get an office job) that's a %560 increase in floor labor. 8 people on the floor x13 hours a day to operate 11am to 10pm with an extra hour each end for daily duties. That's $1,024 a DAY increased cost...well over 400,000 by the time you pay employee matched FICA. Let's say you sell 2,000,000 a year in food n drink. That's a %20 increase in cost which will represent at LEAST %20 increase in retail price. If you're counting along that's THE SAME PRICE AS A TIP! HOLY SH!T why not leave a %20 tip for good service?!!?!?? At least you won't be getting served by scrubs making $12/hr that don't give a rat's if your fajitas werent sizzling or your iced tea wasn't refilled. And if that's happening in a tipping environment A) leave no tip and B) let the manager know. They'll soon fall in line or be replaced by someone who is VERY concerned that your fajitas are sizzling and your iced tea is topped off...but not before asking if it will mess up your mix of lemons and sweet & low. Jesus!


I'm done having this stupid conversation. Let's talk about cultivar instead.

I saw they got into a little trouble with the city over the size of their patio. But people were dining on it Saturday and hopefully this is resolved and they got that planter moved so peds can use the sidewalk. I had my first quesadilla there and it was killer, toasty, just the right amount t of filling and they will now substitute any protein you want inside. I did barbacao and it was really nice. I would love to see these guys add al pastor on the trombo spit eventually.

[dankrutka]

I'm seeing the opening scene of reservoir dogs here. And dantrutka it totally Mr. Pink.

I don't think he realizes it's a skilled trade and it's extremely hard work to do it well. Why do mostly young people do it? Because it's extremely hard work. And it can chip away at your dignity by offering a sultan's service to jerks who don't tip on principle.

I think he's also is oblivious to the fact the those jeans he mentioned at the gap would cost about 15 bucks if it were the norm to tip retail.

A rough template for a Restraunt cost runs 30/30/30(net after tax) food/booze overhead and labor. And you hope to Christ by the time you pay for maintainence and improvements you keep a nickel on the dollar. Obviously for prime steak the wine and steak costs are astronomical but the price per person makes up for it. At McDowell's(coming to America reference, boom) food cost would be under %10 but they're always fighting the labor beast because it takes a lot of $1 cheeseburgers to fulfill the payroll. But your average joint is 30/30/30.

Now let's say at your 30/30/30 store, server labor jumps from 2.13 to $12 an hour (WHICH btw no good server in town would work for btw, they would use their college degrees and go get an office job) that's a %560 increase in floor labor. 8 people on the floor x13 hours a day to operate 11am to 10pm with an extra hour each end for daily duties. That's $1,024 a DAY increased cost...well over 400,000 by the time you pay employee matched FICA. Let's say you sell 2,000,000 a year in food n drink. That's a %20 increase in cost which will represent at LEAST %20 increase in retail price. If you're counting along that's THE SAME PRICE AS A TIP! HOLY SH!T why not leave a %20 tip for good service?!!?!?? At least you won't be getting served by scrubs making $12/hr that don't give a rat's if your fajitas werent sizzling or your iced tea wasn't refilled. And if that's happening in a tipping environment A) leave no tip and B) let the manager know. They'll soon fall in line or be replaced by someone who is VERY concerned that your fajitas are sizzling and your iced tea is topped off...but not before asking if it will mess up your mix of lemons and sweet & low. Jesus!


I'm done having this stupid conversation. Let's talk about cultivar instead.

You clearly didn't read my posts, listen to the podcast, or watch the videos I posted. I would never not tip in our current system. In fact, I believe in tipping generously for good service and I always tip. Long term and systematically, I believe that employers should provide full wages to their employees who should not have to rely on the whims and (subconscious) biases of customers. As for the argument that employers couldn't afford to pay their employees for their work, there is a lot of evidence that this is incorrect. There are places all over the world that have ended tipping for full wages and are succeeding. In the end, customers can pay the same amount and if an employee is worth keeping then an employer will pay her/him as such. Of course there could be legal and social adjustments required in making this system work, but that's not a good reason to keep a bad system.

[Roger S]

Some high end restaurateurs have already started taking steps towards this... Tom Colicchio and Danny Meyer have both been vocal about ending tips in their restaurants.

[Uptowner]

Dinner for four will run you about $500 at a colicchio restaurant before wine. I took the wife to heritage steak in Vegas and dinner for 2 was $500 with 2 bottles of upper tier California cab. Tipping $100 on 500 isnt exactly the same as $12 at red lobster is it?

And I don't need to listens to podcasts or YouTube vloggers to understand that people who regularly take abuse for a low paying, non-variable wage don't give a **** about their jobs. It's universal.

[AP]

^You seem like a really fun person, tbh.

[Roger S]

Dinner for four will run you about $500 at a colicchio restaurant before wine. I took the wife to heritage steak in Vegas and dinner for 2 was $500 with 2 bottles of upper tier California cab. Tipping $100 on 500 isnt exactly the same as $12 at red lobster is it?

I would have to say yes it is exactly... Tipping 20% is tipping 20% regardless of the setting..... Colicchio wants to add 22% to his menu price... If I was a server I would be acceptable to that... A guaranteed 22% against a variable % from a good tipper to nothing from a disgruntled diner.... Either way the consumer still pays for the service and knows exactly what they are paying up front without the anxiety of "How much should I tip this person?"...... It's really not much different than places that charge an automatic gratuity for parties larger than X in my opinion.

Now if the server isn't getting that 22% menu price increase... Then they know exactly who to take up the issue with rather than hoping the diner comes back at a later date so they can spit in their food.

[dankrutka]

^You seem like a really fun person, tbh.

Right? I also appreciate the apology for a long attack directed at me for ideas I didn't express and views I don't hold. Goodness.

There's an interesting trend I've noticed lately from some posters who are openly hostile to research-based contributions. There's certainly no expectation that everyone needs to read everything posted on an internet forum or even that research should be privileged over experience or opinion. But two different posters have openly responded angrily to being presented with evidence on this thread as they emphatically explained no need to learn anything new on the topic!

If someone is not interested in new information or opinions then why even post on a topic?

[Uptowner]

Now if the server isn't getting that 22% menu price increase... Then they know exactly who to take up the issue with rather than hoping the diner comes back at a later date so they can spit in their food.

I sincerely hope that's the case but not always. It doesn't work that way in construction. A lot of industries. I did fancy fine caterings toward the end of school. It was all weekend gigs but I was good at it so I got my pick of the parties, council persons, high profile doctors, lawyers, etc. the company charged $25/hr for my services but paid me $15. Luckily I regularly was tipped $100 for my "you sit back and enjoy your party, let me do everything." Service.

NOW of were talking about adding a %20 gratuity onto all checks and doing away with tipping. Okay. Sure. But that requires homogeneity. And then why would we still be arguing about servers making the same hourly as the people at the gap?

[dankrutka]

NOW of were talking about adding a %20 gratuity onto all checks and doing away with tipping. Okay. Sure. But that requires homogeneity. And then why would we still be arguing about servers making the same hourly as the people at the gap?

First, including "gratuity" in all checks is the only thing I've seen proposed in this thread. Of course, it wouldn't be gratuity anymore, but just the cost of the meal that the employer puts towards server salary.

Second, who is arguing about servers making the same as GAP employees? Did someone suggest that somewhere?

[Urban Pioneer]

^You seem like a really fun person, tbh.

lolz

[pickles]

First, including "gratuity" in all checks is the only thing I've seen proposed in this thread. Of course, it wouldn't be gratuity anymore, but just the cost of the meal that the employer puts towards server salary.

Second, who is arguing about servers making the same as GAP employees? Did someone suggest that somewhere?

Some people are just hysterical. No biggie.

[Anonymous.]

You clearly didn't read my posts, listen to the podcast, or watch the videos I posted. I would never not tip in our current system. In fact, I believe in tipping generously for good service and I always tip. Long term and systematically, I believe that employers should provide full wages to their employees who should not have to rely on the whims and (subconscious) biases of customers. As for the argument that employers couldn't afford to pay their employees for their work, there is a lot of evidence that this is incorrect. There are places all over the world that have ended tipping for full wages and are succeeding. In the end, customers can pay the same amount and if an employee is worth keeping then an employer will pay her/him as such. Of course there could be legal and social adjustments required in making this system work, but that's not a good reason to keep a bad system.

It isn't worth it, dank. People (especially this board) equate the stance of 'tipping is bad' as 'this person doesn't tip'. To them, just the entire notion that you are against tipping, means you are an a$$hole. The irony is that banning tipping would almost certainly benefit everyone involved in the service industry.


edited: thread moved.

[Richard at Remax]

I am sure some of you have seen those ridiculous receipts from athletes and such in Vegas that are 100-200K cause they ordered the most expensive of everything. I remember one where the group was only there a few hours but the tab was was around $200K and the guy only left their server like ~$5K and that server went bonkers on social media saying that person was cheap and they should have received at least $40K in tip. I know some will say if they can afford that then they can afford to give that server more. C'mon now. Do you really think you did $40K worth of service?

I'm all for ending tips and making everything salary based and I don't mind paying a bit higher prices. Now if you are still inclined to tip on top of that it's on you.

[dankrutka]

If there is a tip line, it would be against the law for the restaurant to keep the money. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it would be breaking federal labor law.

That said, I also am completely irritated by being prompted for a tip for counter service. If someone waits on me, I am a generous tipper. If someone rings me up, I fetch my own drink, fetch my food when it's ready, and bus my own table? Why in the hell am I being asked for a tip again?

Coffee places always get me. I just feel like I'm supposed to tip for some reason. Maybe it's because I often spend several hours at a time there or I feel like coffee shops are community spaces, but I always feel like I'm supposed to tip... I certainly wouldn't feel as obligated at Dominoes or even Cultivar. Anyone else feel that way?

[checkthat]

Chef's perspective:

David Chang: The Restaurant Business Is About to Implode | GQ

March 29, 2016
Food’s too cheap, tipping makes no sense, cooks are broke, and it’s damn near impossible to earn a living in this effed-up business. Chef Chang explains the coming restaurant apocalypse—and how we can all survive it.

...

So we must find a way to pay our cooks a living wage—which probably means we need to get rid of tipping.

At my newest place, Nishi, there’s no tipping; service is included in the prices on the menu. This allows restaurant owners to remix the way their “service” charges are distributed to their staff, which we gotta do if we’re going to hang on to the best kitchen talent.

[TheTravellers]

As I've mentioned before - how do restaurants in Europe have really good servers and service and meals are still affordable, yet they don't tip (in general) over there? "Service charge" is added to the bill, yep, know about that, but do the servers just work for lower wages and are OK with it compared to servers here in the USA? How does it work over there yet it just can't ever work over here (according to a huge amount of people) or you'll have astronomically high food prices and/or really crappy servers?

[Pete]

^

Not to mention there are dozens and dozens of other service jobs in the U.S. where people aren't tipped and it all seems to work out just fine.

It's not that you get crazy great service in restaurants and bars that you never get anywhere else.

If anything, I get worse service at bars than just about any other type of business. And yes, I'm polite and a good tipper.