My trip to Tulsa

[Pete]

I spent most the day on Sunday in Tulsa, as some friends from California were there for a wedding. Had not been in about 10 years and was really pleased to see all the great things happening there.

My friends were staying at the downtown Aloft, which is the old converted City Hall. It's a strange 1960's concrete building surrounded by a strange concrete parking garage. The whole setting there is beyond weird and seems like an odd choice for a hotel.

We went to brunch at Dilly's in the Blue Dome district. They were busy and when we finally got a table the waitress asked us where we were from and when my friends said California and I said I had just moved to OKC, she launched into this diatribe about how Tulsa was the “much cooler brother to OKC” and how they were lucky to be in Tulsa and blah, blah, blah. I bit my lip and chalked it up to her being excited about Tulsa but found it weird and frankly, rude. Anyway... It took them forever to get us our food (like almost an hour) and then my chicken fried steak was almost inedible. My friends liked their meals and it was a cool place.

We walked around the Blue Dome... Lots of bars and restaurants but of course most were closed. Went inside Dust Bowl which is a very cool setting in an old building. Smaller than OKC but more charming IMO. Peaked inside The Max and it looked almost identical to FlashBack in OKC (or the other way around, since The Max was first).

There are absolutely tons and tons of surface parking lots all around there and really all of downtown. I suppose that makes it easy for people to drive in and bar hop, which in itself is probably a cool thing. You really notice the Elliot Nelson empire in this area, with Fassler, Dust Bowl, McNellies, Yokozuna, El Guapo and I didn't realize Dilly's was his as well until later.

Downtown Tulsa is in desperate need of something like Project 180. Lots of one-way streets in bad shape and no real streetscape that I noticed.

The other place I spent quite a bit of time was Brookside. Parked at the far north end then walked the length to the new Trader Joe's. Being a gorgeous Sunday around 2PM, the dozen or so bars and restaurants were all packed and very lively. Reminded me a great deal of OKC's Western Ave. but more dense and more places and much better use of patios and street life. BUT they really need to trim Peoria down to 2 lanes in that stretch and get people to slow down. I literally couldn't cross the street and the traffic surging through there was pretty loud and unpleasant, especially since all the places faced out to the street.

The best thing about Brookside IMO is the neighborhoods surrounding. Quaint, close to the river and all the related recreation and close to downtown. Really, all those neighborhoods between I-44 and downtown are really pretty.

I know there was a lot I didn't see like Cherry Street and more of the downtown districts, so I'll be back soon. Also need to be downtown on a weekend night in order to go into most the places I saw.

[Roger S]

My friends were staying at the downtown Aloft, which is the old converted City Hall. It's a strange 1960's concrete building surrounded by a strange concrete parking garage. The whole setting there is beyond weird and seems like an odd choice for a hotel.

I've stayed in that Aloft and the service was incredible and it was one of the nicest rooms I've stayed in Tulsa. I wouldn't hesitate to book a room there again.

[Zuplar]

The real question is did you go to the center of the universe? Seriously maybe one of the cooler things I saw in Tulsa. IMO there is a few things Tulsa does better than OKC, but the majority of everything isn't really in the same ballpark. I too noticed anytime I said I was from OKC, I kind of got the same spill about Tulsa being cooler, to which I usually said something like "yeah you guys got a lot going for you."

[dankrutka]

That stinks about Dilly Deli. I've eaten there probably 10-15 times and never had a bad meal. A lot of your assessment is on point though, which is why the two new huge projects on surface lots are such game changers for Blue Dome.

[stile99]

I said I had just moved to OKC, she launched into this diatribe about how Tulsa was the “much cooler brother to OKC” and how they were lucky to be in Tulsa and blah, blah, blah. I bit my lip and chalked it up to her being excited about Tulsa but found it weird and frankly, rude.

I have never understood the huge hard-on that Tulsa has for OKC, but this is certainly not the first time I've seen this attitude expressed. The sheer hatred Tulsa has for OKC, and the need to convince everyone (including, by my impression, themselves) of their superiority while OKC doesn't seem to care in the slightest would be of great interest to a psychologist if the two cities were human siblings. Not sure you can psychoanalyze a city though.

Tulsa: You're fine. You have a lot to offer. The inferiority complex is a little off-putting. Just be yourself, let your own beauty shine. If your beauty has to come from trying to make others look ugly, it really just makes you look ugly.

[Teo9969]

One of the things I absolutely love about Tulsa that we are simply never going to have in OKC are the numbers of beautiful Cathedrals. There's like 4 of them in downtown Tulsa alone. OKC has First Presbyterian and past that nothing is quite as grand. City Church (Frontline) is cool, but in the Berliner Dom is a nice change of pace from the rest of the European Cathedrals kind of way.

And it wasn't just that…I noticed they have quite a few more older buildings left in their downtown.

Brookside is probably the area that I'm most impressed with. It's a great urban pocket and it's going to take a good minute for Western Avenue to catch up.

Even so, I'd still take OKC 9 times out of 10.

[Pete]

That stinks about Dilly Deli. I've eaten there probably 10-15 times and never had a bad meal. A lot of your assessment is on point though, which is why the two new huge projects on surface lots are such game changers for Blue Dome.

My buddy also had to get up and get his own coffee refill once and as incredibly late as our food was, I'm pretty sure the order just wasn't put in because when the waitress finally checked on us, it was another 15 minutes before we got anything and even then it didn't come out at once. There were only 4 of us.


BTW, my friends loved Tulsa. They were supposed to come visit me in OKC but their schedule became compressed and so I just went up there.


And regarding the waitress diatribe she said something like, "OKC is bigger but we have way more i terms of bars and cool restaurants and just soooo much more going on here." I doubt she had even been to OKC and I suspect this is something that gets repeated over and over again without having any real knowledge. I find it hard to imagine an OKC version of that conversation, where someone is at Kitchen No. 324 (or Pump or The Mule or anywhere else) and learns someone is visiting from Tulsa and basically rags on their city for a good 10 minutes.

[bchris02]

OKC vs Tulsa is a matter of personal preference in my opinion and I think people in both cities have a habit of dismissing what the other has to offer as well as account for recent changes. I think Tulsa is a little more dismissive of OKC but I don't think the average person up there comes down the turnpike as often as people in OKC go to Tulsa. OKC and Tulsa are more similar than they are different, but each one has its own pluses and minuses that can sway people in one direction or the other. Tulsa does have some perks OKC doesn't and if those things are important to someone, to that person Tulsa is better. I think the better statement though would be "I like Tulsa and what it offers better" instead of "Tulsa is way cooler and has more going on than OKC".

[Pete]

I think the better statement though would be "I like Tulsa and what it offers better" instead of "Tulsa is way cooler and has more going on than OKC".

Why get into this at all?

Let alone a waitress serving a guest and by a person who works for a restaurant group with tons of operations (with more coming) in the city they are dogging.

I was immensely insulted, if that isn't obvious. If my friends hadn't been there I would have definitely said something to her.

[Pete]

I think Tulsa is a little more dismissive of OKC but I don't think the average person up there comes down the turnpike as often as people in OKC go to Tulsa.

No way to prove this either way but tons and tons of people from Tulsa come down for Thunder games and other events in OKC. Saw lots of Thunder apparel up there.

My friends who live up there are in OKC all the time; way more than I ever go up there.

With the shifting live music scene -- and especially with Live Nation in the picture in OKC -- I wouldn't be surprised that the net concert traffic doesn't soon fall in OKC's favor.

[918Town]

I have never understood the huge hard-on that Tulsa has for OKC, but this is certainly not the first time I've seen this attitude expressed. The sheer hatred Tulsa has for OKC, and the need to convince everyone (including, by my impression, themselves) of their superiority while OKC doesn't seem to care in the slightest would be of great interest to a psychologist if the two cities were human siblings. Not sure you can psychoanalyze a city though.

Tulsa: You're fine. You have a lot to offer. The inferiority complex is a little off-putting. Just be yourself, let your own beauty shine. If your beauty has to come from trying to make others look ugly, it really just makes you look ugly.

I'm a long time active reader, but very seldom post anything. However, I was really eagerly waiting to hear his independant assesment and impression of my city, which I love just as much you apparently love Okc. I was also prepared to take everything with a grain of salt, realizing the undertones that run through this board. However, more of the same right off the top, for me it's very disappointing and disheartening. I guess I shouldn't have expected more this time, but I did. Am I wrong for expecting anything different?

I've been in Okc a great deal over the last several years, and I've unexpectedly learned to appreciate many great aspects and qualities that the city has to offer. Is Okc perfect, of course not. Is Okc everything you guys believe it is, of course not. But I'm not here to spew everything I hate about Okc, because believe me there are a lot of things not to like, and I believe the quality of life is superior in Tulsa (there are 1M people living up the turnpike to prove that!)

Again, I enjoy in-depth analysis of the issues facing both of the major cities in our state, along with the following discussion of potential solutions and problemsolving ideas. But more of the same Tulsa rhetoric causes me to pause and go dark or just move along. Thanks for your time.

[bchris02]

Why get into this at all?

Let alone a waitress serving a guest and by a person who works for a restaurant group with tons of operations (with more coming) in the city they are dogging.

I was immensely insulted, if that isn't obvious. If my friends hadn't been there I would have definitely said something to her.

True. This specific instance crosses the line from simply having preference for one city over another to being rude and insulting, especially being that you didn't ask her opinion on which city was better. I would maybe complain to the management.

[dankrutka]

And regarding the waitress diatribe she said something like, "OKC is bigger but we have way more i terms of bars and cool restaurants and just soooo much more going on here." I doubt she had even been to OKC and I suspect this is something that gets repeated over and over again without having any real knowledge. I find it hard to imagine an OKC version of that conversation, where someone is at Kitchen No. 324 (or Pump or The Mule or anywhere else) and learns someone is visiting from Tulsa and basically rags on their city for a good 10 minutes.

First, these discussions are always silly in my mind, but maybe that's just because I love both cities. However, I think we all know that narratives take time to change, and there's no question that Tulsa did have more urbanism, art, and music until the last 10-15 years. Tulsa has has vibrant and thriving urban districts in Cherry Street and Brookside since I was a little kid in the 1990s. OKC had some fledgling urban areas, but nothing comparable unless I'm just ignorant.

However, both cities are growing now, but OKC's growth has been transformational. The Blue Dome and Brady District's have really come to the life at about the same time as the Bricktown, the Plaza District, Midtown, and Deep Deuce came alive. In the last year or so Tulsa has seen new potential areas in 3rd street and the Pearl District come alive. So, any way both cities are growing their urban cores, but I don't think there's any question that Tulsa was ahead of OKC for a long time.

Maybe I'm biased since I grew up in Tulsa in the 90s and then lived in Norman/OKC in the 2000s. Thoughts?

[gopokes88]

Top 5 cities in the world
London
Paris
NY
Tokyo
Tulsa

-90% of the Tulsa people I've met.

[Pete]

First, these discussions are always silly in my mind, but maybe that's just because I love both cities. However, I think we all know that narratives take time to change, and there's no question that Tulsa did have more urbanism, art, and music until the last 10-15 years. Tulsa has has vibrant and thriving urban districts in Cherry Street and Brookside since I was a little kid in the 1990s. OKC had some fledgling urban areas, but nothing comparable unless I'm just ignorant.

Why or why do people always forget about Bricktown?? The canal and ballpark opened in the late 90's.

Frankly, if my friends had visited OKC as they had originally planned, we would have spent a bunch of time down there and even on a Sunday afternoon there would have been tons of people out and about. We could have taken their young son to play mini golf, walked the canal, eaten and stopped for drinks many places on the water, gotten ice cream -- could have even gone to a movie.

As it was in downtown Tulsa, we ate at Dilly's and walked around for a good hour and almost nothing else was open and there was nothing for us to do. We ended up jumping in the car and driving around south Tulsa.


There is absolutely nothing in Tulsa that even sniffs Bricktown and yet somehow that is always left out of these comparison discussions and I just don't understand it. People visiting from other cities absolutely rave about Bricktown and it's the only place in the entire state where you can be out at any time and see crowds of people congregating and walking around.

[dankrutka]

Why or why do people always forget about Bricktown?? The canal and ballpark opened in the late 90's.

I certainly didn't forget Bricktown, which started to really emerge in the late 1990s. I was talking about the entire and most of the 1990s, in which OKC lagged behind Tulsa without urban districts comparable to Cherry Street and Brookside. I visited those areas often when I was young. Again, OKC's changes have been transformational with numerous urban districts that -- for the most part -- still have a lot of room for growth. Everything is trending in the right direction for the urban areas in both cities.

[gopokes88]

Why or why do people always forget about Bricktown?? The canal and ballpark opened in the late 90's.

Frankly, if my friends had visited OKC as they had originally planned, we would have spent a bunch of time down there and even on a Sunday afternoon there would have been tons of people out and about. We could have taken their young son to play mini golf, walked the canal, eaten and stopped for drinks many places on the water, gotten ice cream -- could have even gone to a movie.

As it was in downtown Tulsa, we ate at Dilly's and walked around for a good hour and almost nothing else was open and there was nothing for us to do. We ended up jumping in the car and driving around south Tulsa.


There is absolutely nothing in Tulsa that even sniffs Bricktown and yet somehow that is always left out of these comparison discussions and I just don't understand it. People visiting from other cities absolutely rave about Bricktown and it's the only place in the entire state where you can be out at any time and see crowds of people congregating and walking around.

Because as locals we see it as tourist town. That isn't a bad thing but it's full of chains (Zio's, yucatan, hooters, abuelos, melting pot) the local places are higher end and not every week eating (The Mantel, West) so outside of a thunder game there isn't really a compelling reason to go down there.

[Pete]

Because as locals we see it as tourist town. That isn't a bad thing but it's full of chains (Zio's, yucatan, hooters, abuelos, melting pot) the local places are higher end and not every week eating (The Mantel, West) so outside of a thunder game there isn't really a compelling reason to go down there.

I am down there all the time and there are lots of places that aren't chains.

And I assure you it's not just tourists as the area is always churning with people.


This is becoming a hot button issue for me because everyone just completely discounts Bricktown and it's 3x the size of any other urban district in the state with far, far more to offer.

There will soon be TEN hotels in Bricktown alone, ACM @ UCO, along with a movie theater, canal, boat rides, live music, clubs, AAA ballpark, all types of places to eat and drink on the water and a ton of other things to do.

The area is also adding a bunch of office tenants and will soon have 350 housing units with more planned, and already has a fully-sold mid-rise condo project.

There is nothing that is even remotely close to this in the state.

[bchris02]

However, both cities are growing now, but OKC's growth has been transformational. The Blue Dome and Brady District's have really come to the life at about the same time as the Bricktown, the Plaza District, Midtown, and Deep Deuce came alive. In the last year or so Tulsa has seen new potential areas in 3rd street and the Pearl District come alive. So, any way both cities are growing their urban cores, but I don't think there's any question that Tulsa was ahead of OKC for a long time.

Most of the great, cool bars/restaurants in neighborhoods like Midtown, the Plaza, Uptown/23rd have only come into their own in the last three years. OKC had Bricktown but its a very different experience compared to the lower-key neighborhood bar atmosphere you historically had in Tulsa and now have in OKC. I agree narratives and perceptions take some time to change. If somebody from Tulsa's last time going out in OKC was 5+ years ago, I am sure they have a very different perception than somebody who has been here recently.

In regards to Tulsa, here are the things I really like about it.

-Greenery and tall trees
-Compact urban fabric
-Great beautification in the urban core
-Parks/sidewalks
-Retail/grocery stores
-Philanthropic investment

Here is what I don't like about it.

-Condition of streets downtown
-Still too much surface parking near the CBD
-Tulsa's suburbs; don't care for Broken Arrow, Owasso, Jenks, etc
-Economic growth and population growth underperforming

[Mike_M]

I just think the conversation needs to change. In OKC, the first thing you'll here about is cost of living and disposable income. Which is great information for an economist. But in Tulsa, you'll instantly hear about all the things to do there. Thus the perception is that OKC is the cheap boring town to live in, and Tulsa is this underrated cultural hotbed that only the cool people know about. I think if you started the conversation mentioning Bricktown, Midtown, Uptown, and Automobile Alley, not to mention the Criterion and the soon-coming OKC music scene boom, people would see that it's probably just as good, if not better, of a place to be entertained as Tulsa.

[Bellaboo]

^^^ And the new Riversport Rapids can be accessed from Bricktown by walking starting in May.

[Pete]

I just think the conversation needs to change. In OKC, the first thing you'll here about is cost of living and disposable income. Which is great information for an economist. But in Tulsa, you'll instantly hear about all the things to do there. Thus the perception is that OKC is the cheap boring town to live in, and Tulsa is this underrated cultural hotbed that only the cool people know about. I think if you started the conversation mentioning Bricktown, Midtown, Uptown, and Automobile Alley, not to mention the Criterion and the soon-coming OKC music scene boom, people would see that it's probably just as good, if not better, of a place to be entertained as Tulsa.

Excellent points.

But I think the conversation has already changed. Now, we mostly talk about the amazing investment in the central core: Devon, the Myriad Gardens re-do, the Thunder, Bricktown, AA, Midtown, Film Row, SoSA, Boathouses / Riversport, the coming streetcar, etc.

It's exciting to think about being able to take the streetcar through most the core and actually show off everything that is happening in town, and within 2-3 years there will be much more infill along that line.

[Pete]

Anyway....

Tulsa really has sooo much going for it.

Those beautiful neighborhoods just south of downtown, the more affordable but still very nice neighborhoods around Brookside, downtown coming up quickly, the Gathering Place project as well as the river dams...

There are a lot of very desirable places to live very near downtown while the 'hoods to the south have access to nice parks, good shopping and restaurants in the direct vicinity, great grocery choices and then the recreation along the river.

If their economy ever kicks it up a notch or two, you could see how all of that could come together pretty quickly and make a nice city downright awesome.

And really, apart from being not too happy with that waitress, she was really coming from a place of loving Tulsa and said she had considered moving away but now really wants to be a part of what is happening there. I'm sure that attitude is reflected by many in Tulsa and just like OKC, that sort of thing just wasn't heard from young hipsters 5 years ago.

[BG918]

Peoria through Brookside is a very busy thoroughfare and even more so right now because Riverside is closed to build the Gathering Place. I think you will see continued development of Brookside due to its location near the park especially once the Crow Creek trail is built to connect it directly to the park and new children's museum.

On your next visit you should check out Cherry Street and the Pearl. Cherry St is more eclectic than Brookside and is slated to get a streetscape project that will help make the pedestrian environment much better. The surrounding neighborhood is interesting: old bungalows on the south side in the Swan Lake historic district and modern townhouses to the north. The Pearl around 6th & Peoria is still developing and is similar to what the Plaza District was like 5 years ago. The park next to it has a great view of the skyline.

[gopokes88]

I am down there all the time and there are lots of places that aren't chains.

And I assure you it's not just tourists as the area is always churning with people.


This is becoming a hot button issue for me because everyone just completely discounts Bricktown and it's 3x the size of any other urban district in the state with far, far more to offer.

There will soon be TEN hotels in Bricktown alone, ACM @ UCO, along with a movie theater, canal, boat rides, live music, clubs, AAA ballpark, all types of places to eat and drink on the water and a ton of other things to do.

The area is also adding a bunch of office tenants and will soon have 350 housing units with more planned, and already has a fully-sold mid-rise condo project.

There is nothing that is even remotely close to this in the state.

I agree 100% but perception can be reality. It is perceived as touristy.

The Criterion opening could be huge towards turning the corner.