My trip to Tulsa

[Teo9969]

Another thing to note: Tulsa has Kilkenny's. We have no Irish Pub that comes even close.

[bchris02]

There it goes again. Nothing in Okc is on its way to catching Cherry St. Or Brookside. Not to mention Utica Square. You paint it as if Tulsa is standing still. There is development as we speak in both Brookside and Cherry St. And planned major development in Utica. But I don't deal in if's and but's. Currently Tulsa has the best midtown districts. Bricktown is great for what it is and for what it was created to be.

I do think that Brookside and Cherry St are still ahead of anything in OKC other than Bricktown, but I don't think the difference is as big as it was even just two years ago. OKC has come a long way in terms of developing neighborhood bar districts recently. I agree though, some people act like Tulsa is stagnant when that isn't the case at all. As I've said before, I think civic boosters in both cities tend to be dismissive of what the other has to offer. By and large, in my opinion it comes down to personal preference for which one is actually better as each have their pluses and minuses.

[jompster]

Having grown up in Tulsa, and moved here at 23 for a change of scenery, I can honestly say I love both cities for different reasons. I don't find one better than the other in any way. Tulsa has more in terms of the arts, and OKC just simply has more things to do, which is why I chose to move here in the first place. But reading the comments in this thread reminds me of a few of my friends who just act disgusted any time the "which city is better" thing comes up at gatherings. It's a real headache being dragged into that kind of discussion every time. The one I hear from them the most would be that Tulsa has most of its "bad" neighborhoods north of Admiral, and that OKC has them spread all over the place. I'm always impressed by the leaps and bounds OKC has made just in the eight years that I've been here. The momentum is very nice. I wish Tulsa had more of the same momentum, but (as it has been pointed out already) their city government is just a complete mess.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

True on the Midtown Districts, though I think the Plaza, Uptown, Western, and to some extent Film Row are well on their way to catching/surpassing Cherry St. & Brookside and are all ahead of the Pearl. Also if the plans come to fruition, I think the Classen Curve + Nichols Hills Plaza + The Triangle + Glimcher's new construction will likley surpass Utica. Tulsa also doesn't have anything that really compares to the Paseo

Okc will be hard pressed to ever develop anything like Utica. Aside from the quality of shopping the walkability of that place is top notch. It doesn't have roads like grand, Classen, or western mixed in like the curve + triangle area does, which in my eyes will keep that place from ever being quite like Utica.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

And just to throw it out there, I rarely face any animosity from anyone about being from OKC.

[Celebrator]

And just to throw it out there, I rarely face any animosity from anyone about being from OKC.

Not sure if animosity is the right word, but everywhere I go (especially the Pac. NW) people wonder why (and imply it TO MY FACE, which always amazes me) I would live here. And as Pete said above, it's just rude. No matter where someone tells me they are from, I always try and find something nice to say about it. But when I was from Orlando, people in, again especially the Pac. NW, would simply look at me like I was dumb for living there, and make COMMENTS putting it down. It has always just amazed me. And I wish more people brought up the Thunder as the first thing out of their mouths, but almost always it is tornadoes---like no other place ever has them. I just tell people I see them every morning as I go out to grab my paper. Many times they laugh and kind of realize that it's a bit of a narrow comment. It just gets old dealing with so much ignorance of this great place.

[Thomas Vu]

I usually saw OKC people like Tulsa and Tulsa people like OKC. I was raised in Tulsa and came to OKC in 2006.

[PhiAlpha]

There it goes again. Nothing in Okc is on its way to catching Cherry St. Or Brookside. Not to mention Utica Square. You paint it as if Tulsa is standing still. There is development as we speak in both Brookside and Cherry St. And planned major development in Utica. But I don't deal in if's and but's. Currently Tulsa has the best midtown districts. Bricktown is great for what it is and for what it was created to be.

I spend a lot of time in both Tulsa and OKC's districts and am aware of the development in Brookside, Cherry, and Utica. While I very much enjoy all of them, I guess I just wasn't as impressed as you are. It isn't that Tulsa is "standing still" it just seems as though the pace of development is much more rapid in some of the OKC districts than what I've seen in Tulsa's. I agree with you, that currently Tulsa has the advantage in Midtown districts, but given the speed at which OKC's are catching up (especially with how much that development has accelerated over the last 3-4 years), I just don't think districts like Cherry, Brookside and Utica will hold that advantage much longer. Regardless, that is my opinion, I wasn't speaking in absolutes.

[Teo9969]

I wish Tulsa had more of the same momentum, but (as it has been pointed out already) their city government is just a complete mess.

To me, this is the big difference, and it's probably over magnified for us on this board. OKC pretty clearly has more momentum than Tulsa, but when you know all the development that is coming up in one city, but relatively little about the other city, that's when the rhetoric starts to go overboard a little.

This is also a forum more or less dedicated to urban development, and in that regard, while Tulsa is better established in certain areas, OKC has so much money being thrown around the urban areas by comparison…so much so that multi million dollar developments routinely receive little attention/discussion on this forum and especially outside of it.

[Eric]

Not knowing the districts in OKC quite as well (more recently), my opinion has always been that Cherry Street is probably the most urban district in the entire state. Once efforts are made to calm traffic a bit, the district will be even more pleasant. What it has that most others don't is a variety of housing options in the immediate area, most of the necessities one would need to live on a day to day basis (Reasor's full service grocer is only a half mile away as well in addition to smaller markets on Cherry Street). The most popular farmer's market calls it home as well. It has some of the best restaurants and bars in town. Churches. School. Banks. It's a true neighborhood. To boot Utica Square is just to the south as well.

Again, this is purely from an urban area perspective. Not a best place to visit/tour. And all the knocks on Bricktown remind me of similar criticisms of Times Square New York. Locals would avoid it like the plague at times. People like to be able to claim things, and if millions of other people can do the same it somehow makes it less desirable. Whatever.

And sometime...perception is a tough thing to break out of.

Oklahoma City (as a whole) being a much larger metro obviously will continue to have more "things to do" than Tulsa ever will. Outside of moving the capital to Tulsa, I don't see how Tulsa could ever truly catch up in that respect. Both cities excel at different things. The saying "to each his own" is appropriate. My perception of both cities is this:

[bchris02]

Not knowing the districts in OKC quite as well (more recently), my opinion has always been that Cherry Street is probably the most urban district in the entire state. Once efforts are made to calm traffic a bit, the district will be even more pleasant. What it has that most others don't is a variety of housing options in the immediate area, most of the necessities one would need to live on a day to day basis (Reasor's full service grocer is only a half mile away as well in addition to smaller markets on Cherry Street). The most popular farmer's market calls it home as well. It has some of the best restaurants and bars in town. Churches. School. Banks. It's a true neighborhood. To boot Utica Square is just to the south as well.

I can definitely agree with this, and this is one thing that I really like about Tulsa and other older urban cities. I really like self-contained neighborhoods where you rarely have to go very far for every day necessities. Little Rock's Hillcrest district is the same way as Cherry Street but on a smaller scale. It's an urban district but its also a complete neighborhood with a full-sized grocery store, beautiful historic churches, banks, etc in addition to the trendy bars and restaurants.

[dankrutka]

To me, this is the big difference, and it's probably over magnified for us on this board. OKC pretty clearly has more momentum than Tulsa, but when you know all the development that is coming up in one city, but relatively little about the other city, that's when the rhetoric starts to go overboard a little.

This is true also. How many OKC folks know about all the developments happening in Tulsa: 20 downtown development projects you should know about There's some info in the Tulsa Development Summary thread, but it's not nearly as comprehensive as what's on this site for OKC: http://www.okctalk.com/tulsa-suburbs...summary-6.html That few people have mentioned the Brady District is surprising, considering I think the momentum in that district is similar to what's happening in OKC's emerging district. You could make an argument that the Brady District has the most potential of any Tulsa districts (even over Brookside, Cherry Street, Utica Square, Blue Dome).

[BG918]

Oklahoma City (as a whole) being a much larger metro obviously will continue to have more "things to do" than Tulsa ever will. Outside of moving the capital to Tulsa, I don't see how Tulsa could ever truly catch up in that respect. Both cities excel at different things. The saying "to each his own" is appropriate.

I would say not having the state's flagship public university and hospital/medical research center is the biggest disadvantage Tulsa has compared to OKC, followed by state government offices and Tinker AFB. It is difficult for a city to have significant growth without one or more of those employment clusters especially in the high tech economy where college graduates and research associated with universities are such big economic drivers. If TU was more like a Vanderbilt or even TCU/Baylor it could fill part of that void but while its a respected private university it's currently not anywhere near the size or level needed to be a major force for Tulsa.

[Pete]

The problem with these comparisons is that there is no perspective; no objective measurements to contrast.

Every single American city has existing urban districts and most have lots of activity, due to the larger New Urbanism movement.

So, anyone can say, "We have so much going on! So much more than xxx" but virtually no one has the facts or stats for a meaningful comparison.

That is one reason I created the Urban Project Summary, the Downtown Hotel Summary and Downtown Housing Summary. Those are real metrics but do little good without compiled data from other cities.

[Pete]

Not knowing the districts in OKC quite as well (more recently), my opinion has always been that Cherry Street is probably the most urban district in the entire state.

It all depends on how you want to define "most urban".

Again, Bricktown and directly adjacent Deep Deuce have way more of everything than anywhere else in the state. Not even close, actually.

If you say you prefer a district for various reasons, that's one thing but if you get into these "most urban" statements then you have to look at everything from housing to shopping to restaurants to recreation to offices and transportation, etc.

If you want to get down to measurements there is simply nothing that is going to compare with Bricktown and Deep Deuce -- not by miles. Personal preferences aside.

11 hotels, thousands of living units, 50+ restaurants and bars, many large employers, multiple street car stops, grocery store, ballpark, dog park, retail and service stores, on and on.

[Eric]

This is true also. How many OKC folks know about all the developments happening in Tulsa: 20 downtown development projects you should know about There's some info in the Tulsa Development Summary thread, but it's not nearly as comprehensive as what's on this site for OKC: http://www.okctalk.com/tulsa-suburbs...summary-6.html That few people have mentioned the Brady District is surprising, considering I think the momentum in that district is similar to what's happening in OKC's emerging district. You could make an argument that the Brady District has the most potential of any Tulsa districts (even over Brookside, Cherry Street, Utica Square, Blue Dome).

It would seem that way at the outset, but a majority of the development is civic/museums/stadiums. There really is little in terms of rooftops. Blue Dome has a long LONG way to go to catch up with Cherry Street and Brookside. Blue Dome is still a place that necessitates a drive (or a bus trip).

[Pete]

^

Since both those Tulsa districts are surrounded almost exclusively by single family housing, I'm sure very few people are not using their cars to get there.

Not sure how truly urban a district can be when in all directions there are nothing but houses.

[Eric]

It all depends on how you want to define "most urban".

Again, Bricktown and directly adjacent Deep Deuce have way more of everything than anywhere else in the state. Not even close, actually.

If you say you prefer a district for various reasons, that's one thing but if you get into these "most urban" statements then you have to look at everything from housing to shopping to restaurants to recreation to offices and transportation, etc.

If you want to get down to measurements there is simply nothing that is going to compare with Bricktown and Deep Deuce -- not by miles. Personal preferences aside.

11 hotels, thousands of living units, 50+ restaurants and bars, many large employers, multiple street car stops, grocery store, ballpark, dog park, retail and service stores, on and on.

I agree my statement was a bit vague (urban), however I think bchris02 caught it in that I meant a self contained, "urban" has everything a local would ever need or want. As much as Bricktown is infinitely larger than Cherry Street, they are two completely different animals. It's like comparing Times Square to Greenwich Village. Apples and Oranges.

So in summary, whatever the terminology for it is, I believe Cherry Street is the most it. While Walkscore is not the end all be all, this is kind of the direction/point I am trying to make.

Walkscore - OKC.JPGWalkscore - Cherry Street.JPG

[Pete]

^

Right, but there are very few people who live close enough to walk to and from either place!

In that respect, it's the antithesis of an urban neighborhood and essentially a shopping / dining strip.

A true urban neighborhood has *density* and neither of these two neighborhoods come anywhere close. Not only no dense housing, no office workers and no real public transportation.

Is anything in either district you are promoting even over 2 floors?

[Teo9969]

The issue with Cherry St. and Brookside (and Western Ave. and The Plaza) is that they are urban corridors in otherwise non-urban settings. Not all non-urban settings are unwalkable, especially if there is an urban focal point that operates inside of the non-urban fabric. Tulsa is better at these types of areas than OKC, for the moment.

Bricktown is a decidedly urban area, just as Blue Dome and Brady are decidedly urban areas (because surface parking essentially counts as neutral in urban/non-urban). The difference between OKC and Tulsa in relation to Urbanism is that OKC has focused on creating thriving fully urban settings for over a decade now and it's paying dividends. Bricktown/Deep Deuce is the most flushed out 16-20 block conglomerate in the state.

As 918Towner noted, OKC's "midtown" centers (or more correctly "non-downtown corridors") are decidedly more urban and better developed at this point in time…but that has to do with (and this is an assumption on my part) the surrounding historical residential neighborhoods maintaining their historical value better or at the very least gentrifying much sooner than OKC's versions (Crown Heights, Heritage Hill/Mesta Park, Gatewood, etc.)

Tulsa will absolutely get there. They have a major challenge in that their downtown is strangled by highways, but if they focus on making downtown a super special place, then it should be able to spill over into the other areas that are just on the other sides of those barriers.

[bchris02]

The issue with Cherry St. and Brookside (and Western Ave. and The Plaza) is that they are urban corridors in otherwise non-urban settings. Not all non-urban settings are unwalkable, especially if there is an urban focal point that operates inside of the non-urban fabric. Tulsa is better at these types of areas than OKC, for the moment.

Completely agree with this, with the exception that I still consider these neighborhoods to be urban even if they are comprised of mostly single family homes as opposed to multistory, multifamily housing, as long as the layout of the neighborhood is urban (grid streets, sidewalks, etc) and feeds seamlessly into the commercial focal point of the neighborhood. Another thing to look for is if the homes are oriented towards the street or the backyard. In urban single-family neighborhoods, the living room will have a large window overlooking the street. In the suburbs, usually a bedroom will be facing the street and the living room will be oriented towards the backyard.

OKC's best chance for these types of neighborhoods are the Plaza, Western Ave, and Uptown 23rd. All three of those places have really taken off in terms of trendy bars/restaurants, but still have a ways to go when it comes to other amenities that will truly make them self-contained neighborhoods.

[Pete]

Both those areas are just commercial strips along one main road.

Might be fun for bar-hopping and some light shopping but absolutely not urban neighborhoods.

[bchris02]

One more thing, I think what Deep Deuce really needs to complete it is a commercial corridor as its focal point. As is, there is a little retail and a few restaurants scattered throughout it but it lacks a central commercial focal point.

[Pete]

Almost everything in Deep Deuce is on 2nd Street, or just off it, so I don't know what you are talking about.

[Martin]

Almost everything in Deep Deuce is on 2nd Street, or just off it, so I don't know what you are talking about.

it would probably help if they changed the name of the district to reflect that focus. -M