My trip to Tulsa

[PhiAlpha]

I'm a long time active reader, but very seldom post anything. However, I was really eagerly waiting to hear his independant assesment and impression of my city, which I love just as much you apparently love Okc. I was also prepared to take everything with a grain of salt, realizing the undertones that run through this board. However, more of the same right off the top, for me it's very disappointing and disheartening. I guess I shouldn't have expected more this time, but I did. Am I wrong for expecting anything different?

I've been in Okc a great deal over the last several years, and I've unexpectedly learned to appreciate many great aspects and qualities that the city has to offer. Is Okc perfect, of course not. Is Okc everything you guys believe it is, of course not. But I'm not here to spew everything I hate about Okc, because believe me there are a lot of things not to like, and I believe the quality of life is superior in Tulsa (there are 1M people living up the turnpike to prove that!)

Again, I enjoy in-depth analysis of the issues facing both of the major cities in our state, along with the following discussion of potential solutions and problemsolving ideas. But more of the same Tulsa rhetoric causes me to pause and go dark or just move along. Thanks for your time.

I'm not really sure why you picked that post to avidly disagree with. I'm in Tulsa very often and when I mention that I live in OKC...I inexplicably get similar responses, even from friends. I don't think I've ever heard that type of derogatory commentary thrown in the other direction. It does seem like a large portion of the Tulsa population has a major inferiority complex when it comes to OKC.

To counter your point, there is a lot that I love about Tulsa, is Tulsa perfect...not even close. Is Tulsa everything that it's unabashed supporters think it is...NO, and I would argue that Tulsans have much larger delusions of grandeur about the state of Tulsa than the majority of OKCTalk participants do about OKC. There are plenty of things not to like about Tulsa as well, but unlike many residents of your city in their opinions about OKC, I choose to keep those comments to myself as opposed to spewing them every time someone says they are from Tulsa.

[Pete]

And I think that perception is held by many here in disproportion to the general populous of OKC.

Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many people down there all day, every day. No way the majority of those people (or even close to it) are from out of town.

[PhiAlpha]

Why or why do people always forget about Bricktown?? The canal and ballpark opened in the late 90's.

I always wonder about this as well. I actually just got into an argument with friends about Bricktown last weekend. For whatever reason, it has some major perception issues with the young professional crowd here.

[Urbanized]

The chain thing is straight garbage. I'm tired of fighting that fight on here. More than 30 bars and restaurants in Bricktown are local. That's more local places than just about any two other districts put together. And oh, by the way, as long as we are talking about other districts, they have chains too. Midtown, for instance, has a far greater proportion of chains than Bricktown does, with Louie's, Garage, Fassler, Dust Bowl, McNellies, 1492 and Irma's - off the top of my head - ALL falling in that category. Yet somehow other districts get a complete pass in this discussion. This isn't a knock on Midtown - where I probably spend more of my own personal time than anyplace else - it's just an illustration of how one-sided this discussion always is. It is total and complete horse ****.

And if you think Midtown, Uptown, Automobile Alley and Plaza don't also have a significant number of tourist and non-local business, you are delusional. People are sent to these places daily by hotel staff, by people working in attractions, by people working in other restaurants, by friends and family, by work colleagues, by the Convention and Vistors Bureau, by social media, by vistors' guides, by Google...and don't kid yourselves, the merchants in those districts LOVE that business. They CRAVE that business. It's good for them, it is good for the economy, and it is good for your quality of life as a local, since those places don't have to depend on just you and your cheap friends to keep the place going.

Do you think you can just look at someone and know whether they are a local or whether they are a tourist? In most cases the answer is no. You just THINK you can. You cheat by looking at someone in Bricktown and assuming they are a tourist, and by looking at someone in Midtown or Plaza and assuming they are local. Do you bother to ask? I do, because it is my business to do so. I reiterate: there are lots of locals frequenting Bricktown, and lots of visitors frequenting other districts. Stop being such snobs, people. ****.

OK, back to Tulsa...

[Pete]

^

You don't get off that easy!

What would you say is the local / tourist percentage breakdown in Bricktown? I know it varies if there is a convention in town, but generally speaking, what would you guess?

[Urbanized]

Pete, it depends on how you define "local." If you mean from the larger metro, (Edmondish to Normanish, Shawneeish to El Renoish), I would say (total - but educated -guess) that somewhere around half of the annual users are local. This number is fed by day-in-day-out business; lunches, drinks after work, live music, and event business (Thunder, Dodgers, concerts, circus, etc.). A huge amount of local business occurs during Downtown in December. Other than during events they aren't always here in overwhelming numbers...much like other districts. They make up a lot if not most of the weekend business at bars, clubs, etc. We also often see locals here when they are entertaining out-of-town family and guests.

The remaining 50% is probably half in-state business - which is here year-round - and half regional/national/international travelers. The last group is really visible in large numbers during the spring and summer.

Just remember, the 50% of the district's annual business that is "local" is probably still more than the annual amount of locals in any other district, owing to the massive overall number of users. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than any two other districts combined. You've said it yourself, the district is generally crawling with people, especially when the weather is nice. Until just recently, people on this board were (incorrectly) saying that Bricktown was "dead" except for summer weekends, which is more of the same horse **** repeated by people who by their own admission don't frequent the place.

Now, all of that said, some people's definition of "local" is different. For lots of them, unless you live within the Grand Avenue bubble and carry a Keep it Local OK card, you don't qualify. By the way, I myself qualify on both counts. But for people who fit that (made-up) definition (I like to call them uberlocals), it is fashionable to say you don't go to Bricktown, just like it is fashionable for some people to say that they don't watch TV. Those people are an admittedly small percentage of the users of Bricktown, though places like Skinny Slim's and Tapwerks still lure them here at times, and the Criterion will DEFINITELY cause them to be here more often.

[dankrutka]

The chain thing is straight garbage. I'm tired of fighting that fight on here. More than 30 bars and restaurants in Bricktown are local. That's more local places than just about any two other districts put together. And oh, by the way, as long as we are talking about other districts, they have chains too. Midtown, for instance, has a far greater proportion of chains than Bricktown does, with Louie's, Garage, Fassler, Dust Bowl, McNellies, 1492 and Irma's - off the top of my head - ALL falling in that category. Yet somehow other districts get a complete pass in this discussion. This isn't a knock on Midtown - where I probably spend more of my own personal time than anyplace else - it's just an illustration of how one-sided this discussion always is. It is total and complete horse ****.

First, let me say that I totally agree with your larger point that Bricktown is unfairly viewed as a place for chains and tourists. You've changed my thinking on the issue. Keep up the good fight.

Having said that, I believe a local "chain" (particularly considering many of them only have one or two locations) is very different than a national one. That Louie's started in Norman and almost exclusively exists in Oklahoma (with a few out-of-state locations) means that it is far more locally invested than, say, Hooters. Anyway, I'm sure there's something that I'm missing...

[Pete]

^

But if you apply that same standard, there are still very few chains in Bricktown.

[bchris02]

Others can maybe give more insight into PhiAlpha's claim that Bricktown has a perception problem with young professionals, but for me, I prefer the atmosphere and crowd in Midtown, 23rd, and Plaza establishments over Bricktown. That is my personal preference. Bricktown however is still the premier urban district in the city and is very important to the city's image. I just prefer the more intimate, neighborhood feel of the establishments elsewhere.

The Steelyard and Criterion will bring more people to Bricktown who have likely left the district for the other neighborhoods as well as bring more warm bodies actually living in Bricktown. This should really help push the district in the right direction. The placemaking initiative that was posted here will also be a big help.

Something else that could really help Bricktown is better use of and more focus on the canal.

[Pete]

Skinny Slim's in Bricktown is perhaps the most intimate, friendliest bar in town.

[jerrywall]

Part of the problem Bricktown has is the perception that it's "inconvenient" to go to. And this is partly fair, although it's getting people used to the idea that you're not going to be able to pull right up to the bar/restaurant you're going to, park up front, and park for free. When I'm trying to get friends to meet up somewhere, I have an easier time getting them to meet up at Deep Deuce grill, or Skinny Slims, rather than say Hudson's or Tapworks. I run into similar resistance in the Plaza District.

And second on that Skinny Slim's endorsement (although I spend most of my time at the Edmond one).

[HOT ROD]

i would guess on average MY GUESS is Bricktown would be 60% local 40% tourist, except days/nights when there is a convention or national event going on (then obviously, it likely switches to 20% local 80% tourist).

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
Also a reasonable breakdown I think, and doesn't really conflict with my own estimate. On a day-in-day-out, night-in-night-out basis more than half the users are locals, but when the district is really slammed (especially in summertime) it lurches a little bit more toward visitor.

This is an example of something else I often say about Bricktown; for most people Bricktown is only what it is when they themselves experience it. If they only come occasionally on late nights, Friday and Saturday, it is a club/bar district, and unless they are the type of person who frequents nightclubs they might feel REALLY out of place. If you come on a Saturday afternoon, you think it is mostly a family destination. If you visit on a Monday morning, it's a sleepy business district. If you visit on a Monday night, it's a humming business DINNER district.

The problem is that most people only experience the district during one type of time, and they think it ALWAYS is what they've experienced.

OK, seriously, this is derailing the Tulsa talk.

[gopokes88]

The chain thing is straight garbage. I'm tired of fighting that fight on here. More than 30 bars and restaurants in Bricktown are local. That's more local places than just about any two other districts put together. And oh, by the way, as long as we are talking about other districts, they have chains too. Midtown, for instance, has a far greater proportion of chains than Bricktown does, with Louie's, Garage, Fassler, Dust Bowl, McNellies, 1492 and Irma's - off the top of my head - ALL falling in that category. Yet somehow other districts get a complete pass in this discussion. This isn't a knock on Midtown - where I probably spend more of my own personal time than anyplace else - it's just an illustration of how one-sided this discussion always is. It is total and complete horse ****.

And if you think Midtown, Uptown, Automobile Alley and Plaza don't also have a significant number of tourist and non-local business, you are delusional. People are sent to these places daily by hotel staff, by people working in attractions, by people working in other restaurants, by friends and family, by work colleagues, by the Convention and Vistors Bureau, by social media, by vistors' guides, by Google...and don't kid yourselves, the merchants in those districts LOVE that business. They CRAVE that business. It's good for them, it is good for the economy, and it is good for your quality of life as a local, since those places don't have to depend on just you and your cheap friends to keep the place going.

Do you think you can just look at someone and know whether they are a local or whether they are a tourist? In most cases the answer is no. You just THINK you can. You cheat by looking at someone in Bricktown and assuming they are a tourist, and by looking at someone in Midtown or Plaza and assuming they are local. Do you bother to ask? I do, because it is my business to do so. I reiterate: there are lots of locals frequenting Bricktown, and lots of visitors frequenting other districts. Stop being such snobs, people. ****.

OK, back to Tulsa...

I'm not being a snob just answering why people forget about bricktown and the answer is that it is perceived as touristy. A major problem is the two most visible restaurants are major and national chains. Zio's and Hooters.

All the midtown places you listed are local-ish. I'd call them state level local. So it's not horsesh*t, it's a valid opinion to say Bricktown is perceived as touristy and chain filled. You could open a bomb local burger place on memorial but that isn't going to change it's dallas-esq highway feel. Same thing with Bricktown, until both of those places are gone or Bricktown grows so much their visibility shrinks, that will be the perception.

As far as AP's point about it's negative reputation it's pretty simple. Perception is that Bricktown is full of club rats and a bunch of people from the country at the wormy dog. Skinny Slims being the exception, although its location gives it an almost deep deuce feel. (It is as amazing as Pete says and if you are showing off OKC that's a bar to take people too) DD also pulls a lot of people away from Bricktown, they have a cool little area between DDG, WSKY, A loft and Slaughters Hall.

It's just a perception is reality situation. It looks touristy, it's marketed to tourists (directly, and indirectly TNT loves cutaway shots of the canal), and it some of its highest profile restaurants are national chains.

That said, The Criterion could change every bit of that.

[AP]

As far as AP's point about it's negative reputation it's pretty simple.

Though I do agree with PhiAlpha's statement that the YP crowd in OKC has a negative perception of Bricktown, it wasn't me that first made the statement. You got us confused!

[gopokes88]

Though I do agree with PhiAlpha's statement that the YP crowd in OKC has a negative perception of Bricktown, it wasn't me that first made the statement. You got us confused!

PA and AP, dyslexia strikes again.

[bchris02]

Back to Tulsa, one of the most impressive things about it is what they've accomplished and what kind of developments are in the pipeline there despite a dysfunctional city government and lackluster economic growth (even during the oil boom). If the city got its act together, it could really become something special. Tulsa has so much built-in potential such as a beautiful natural setting, a real riverfront, and plenty of historic buildings to work with.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

I grew up in OKC, went to school at OU, and moved to Tulsa 2 years ago for work. I feel like this gives me a good viewpoint to compare both cities.

To me it's pretty simple. OKC is much farther along in terms of downtown development, however where Tulsa takes the cake is in its midtown districts. Cherry street, utica square, and brookside have just been around longer and had more of a chance to develop. Okc on the other hand has had momentum downtown for decades and there is nothing like bricktown at all in Tulsa. Only now does Tulsa have something going (mostly thanks to Elliot Nelson).

Both cities rock and I always seem to catch myself playing devils advocate when talking to someone about them. I love the hills and river in Tulsa but do miss OKC's charm. It seems a bit more southern to me and not nearly as Midwestern as Tulsa. Most of all though, I miss the BBQ and johnnies burgers from okc.

[PhiAlpha]

Though I do agree with PhiAlpha's statement that the YP crowd in OKC has a negative perception of Bricktown, it wasn't me that first made the statement. You got us confused!

Noooooo!!!!!! j/k

And just to be clear, I really like Bricktown but the negative perception (at least among some of the YP crowd) is definitely there and GoPokes' comments are right on the money as far as the sentiments I've heard expressed. It's really unfortunate because there are plenty of cool local bar options like Tapwerks, Skinny Slims, JJ's Alley, Hudson's, Drinkz (though the z is frustrating), RedPin, The Bricktown Brewery, Knuck's, the biting sow (or whatever it's called now), among others. Even the Cosmopolitan is kind of cool in non-club way. As others have said, I think a combination of the additional residential options, criterion, additional parking garages and additional retail associated with each of those will help adjust the perception. Some additional utilization of canal frontage would go a long way as well and that seems to be happening.

[PhiAlpha]

however where Tulsa takes the cake is in its midtown districts. Cherry street, utica square, and brookside have just been around longer and had more of a chance to develop. Okc on the other hand has had momentum downtown for decades and there is nothing like bricktown at all in Tulsa. Only now does Tulsa have something going (mostly thanks to Elliot Nelson).

True on the Midtown Districts, though I think the Plaza, Uptown, Western, and to some extent Film Row are well on their way to catching/surpassing Cherry St. & Brookside and are all ahead of the Pearl. Also if the plans come to fruition, I think the Classen Curve + Nichols Hills Plaza + The Triangle + Glimcher's new construction will likley surpass Utica. Tulsa also doesn't have anything that really compares to the Paseo

[Rover]

Because as locals we see it as tourist town. That isn't a bad thing but it's full of chains (Zio's, yucatan, hooters, abuelos, melting pot) the local places are higher end and not every week eating (The Mantel, West) so outside of a thunder game there isn't really a compelling reason to go down there.

You obviously don't spend time there or you would know better.

[Rover]

I'm not being a snob just answering why people forget about bricktown and the answer is that it is perceived as touristy. A major problem is the two most visible restaurants are major and national chains. Zio's and Hooters.

All the midtown places you listed are local-ish. I'd call them state level local. So it's not horsesh*t, it's a valid opinion to say Bricktown is perceived as touristy and chain filled. You could open a bomb local burger place on memorial but that isn't going to change it's dallas-esq highway feel. Same thing with Bricktown, until both of those places are gone or Bricktown grows so much their visibility shrinks, that will be the perception.

As far as AP's point about it's negative reputation it's pretty simple. Perception is that Bricktown is full of club rats and a bunch of people from the country at the wormy dog. Skinny Slims being the exception, although its location gives it an almost deep deuce feel. (It is as amazing as Pete says and if you are showing off OKC that's a bar to take people too) DD also pulls a lot of people away from Bricktown, they have a cool little area between DDG, WSKY, A loft and Slaughters Hall.

It's just a perception is reality situation. It looks touristy, it's marketed to tourists (directly, and indirectly TNT loves cutaway shots of the canal), and it some of its highest profile restaurants are national chains.

That said, The Criterion could change every bit of that.

This is an interesting discussion because I am in Dallas and Ft. worth today working on some real estate development issues and my being from OKC sparked three different conversations about Bricktown today and I had no questions about mid town, plaza, 23rd. Others take note of the vibrancy of Bricktown and OKC is now partly defined by Bricktown.

Btw, these developers spoke very favorably about Btown as an organic place. Reading some of these comments makes you think outsiders get it better than many okcitians

[918Town]

I'm not really sure why you picked that post to avidly disagree with. I'm in Tulsa very often and when I mention that I live in OKC...I inexplicably get similar responses, even from friends. I don't think I've ever heard that type of derogatory commentary thrown in the other direction. It does seem like a large portion of the Tulsa population has a major inferiority complex when it comes to OKC.

To counter your point, there is a lot that I love about Tulsa, is Tulsa perfect...not even close. Is Tulsa everything that it's unabashed supporters think it is...NO, and I would argue that Tulsans have much larger delusions of grandeur about the state of Tulsa than the majority of OKCTalk participants do about OKC. There are plenty of things not to like about Tulsa as well, but unlike many residents of your city in their opinions about OKC, I choose to keep those comments to myself as opposed to spewing them every time someone says they are from Tulsa.

I don't understand your questioning, Why I "picked" the post, or why I "avidly disagree with" it? If you don't see anything to disagree with or if you don't know why I chose that post out of all the "same", I'll explain. That was the first reply in the thread that lead into the usual Tulsa chant that's repeated over and over on here. And I type slow (while also being distracted with real world issues this morning. That's why my reply was posted later in the thread)

I was looking forward to reading about the things he saw and did on his visit and his impressions of the development. Anyway, I'm tiring of the same ol same ol. Just because you say it enough doesn't mean it's true. So it's known that a large portion of the close to 1M people in Tulsa have an inferiority complex? The sensitivity level is so high, that it's obvious the complex runs the other way. Believe me, Tulsans could give two f@#$ about Okc, the Thunder, or Bricktown.

I'm here as an exception, I like learning about development and other cities. The whole group think here is insane. Any dissenting opinion has to be disproved immediately. It can't be taken and used as constructive criticism. That's what a real discussion thread is about. Not cheerleading against Tulsa(ns). An opportunity for Okc will be analysed to death until it becomes a strength.

Have at it, peace out!

[918Town]

True on the Midtown Districts, though I think the Plaza, Uptown, Western, and to some extent Film Row are well on their way to catching/surpassing Cherry St. & Brookside and are all ahead of the Pearl. Also if the plans come to fruition, I think the Classen Curve + Nichols Hills Plaza + The Triangle + Glimcher's new construction will likley surpass Utica. Tulsa also doesn't have anything that really compares to the Paseo

There it goes again. Nothing in Okc is on its way to catching Cherry St. Or Brookside. Not to mention Utica Square. You paint it as if Tulsa is standing still. There is development as we speak in both Brookside and Cherry St. And planned major development in Utica. But I don't deal in if's and but's. Currently Tulsa has the best midtown districts. Bricktown is great for what it is and for what it was created to be.

[Teo9969]

918Town,

While I do agree that the rhetoric on here can be a bit dismissive of the qualities that Tulsa possesses and people that frequent this site are obviously fans of OKC, I think you are unfairly dismissing a qualm that has been presented by many posters through actual experiences they've had. When you're in Tulsa and you say you're from OKC, not always, but often enough that it warrants noticing, the conversation takes this awkward turn toward all the cool things about Tulsa. Perhaps it happens in OKC as well, and we don't know, and it's a relatively normal thing to happen between these 2 cities…but it doesn't seem that way.

And hey, a little bit of competition is good for both cities. It would be a shame if you left simply because people were misinformed. You'd be surprised that you could help people on this site understand your city better and help foster an appreciation for your city (even if posters remain competitive in their approach). There're several Tulsa posters here and they've made strides in helping create an interest in the 918.