I-35 / I-240 Exchange

[NoOkie]

Ironically I was just talking to someone from rural Kansas, now living in Kansas City the other day and they kept going on about how terrible the condition of Missouri roads are and how much needs done.

When I lived in KC, roads were almost always better in Kansas(This may have changed with state funding problems since becoming Brownbackistan). Also, the Triangle(US-71/I-470/i-435 interchange) was under construction for almost the entire 6 years I lived there. The Missouri side did have much better snow removal, though.

That being said, I think our cash-only rules for state agencies are silly. Debt is tool for individuals, businesses and governments. With interest rates low, ODOT could have issued bonds and gotten the major projects done in a reasonable time. 8 years to finish work on the busiest interchanges in the city is absurd, but 8 years to pay off the bonds for that work is perfectly reasonable.

[HangryHippo]

That being said, I think our cash-only rules for state agencies are silly. Debt is tool for individuals, businesses and governments. With interest rates low, ODOT could have issued bonds and gotten the major projects done in a reasonable time. 8 years to finish work on the busiest interchanges in the city is absurd, but 8 years to pay off the bonds for that work is perfectly reasonable.

Exactly! Very well said, NoOkie.

[gopokes88]

You lose economies of scale funding somethin over the course of 8 years with stop and start construction. All the interest the government saves goes right out the window because they aren't getting a buying in bulk discount. Econ 101.

[bombermwc]

That's making the assumption that each subcontracted job purchases through a master entity and that supplies of the same type are all purchased through the same method for each piece....that's not the case. It's up to each subcontractor to secure their supplies, and they purchase those from various sources....including what stock that company currently has. Remember, the bid is set for a set dollar amount and the contractors work to keep their own budgets in line with that. The cheaper expenses simply mean more profit on the project for the contractor.

[catch22]

That's making the assumption that each subcontracted job purchases through a master entity and that supplies of the same type are all purchased through the same method for each piece....that's not the case. It's up to each subcontractor to secure their supplies, and they purchase those from various sources....including what stock that company currently has. Remember, the bid is set for a set dollar amount and the contractors work to keep their own budgets in line with that. The cheaper expenses simply mean more profit on the project for the contractor.

I don't think he means a literal bulk discount on concrete, rebar, and jersey barriers.

I think he means by consolidating phases, the same contractor may be used which would reduce the overall cost.

For example, Phase 1 of Project XYZ may cost $450,000, with a 2 year break in work before Phase 2 which costs a separate $450,000. If Phase 1 and 2 were the same phase, the reduced cost from NOT stopping and starting work may bring the total bid to $800,000. A $100,000 savings over bidding them separately multiple years apart.

[jompster]

I don't think he means a literal bulk discount on concrete, rebar, and jersey barriers.

I think he means by consolidating phases, the same contractor may be used which would reduce the overall cost.

For example, Phase 1 of Project XYZ may cost $450,000, with a 2 year break in work before Phase 2 which costs a separate $450,000. If Phase 1 and 2 were the same phase, the reduced cost from NOT stopping and starting work may bring the total bid to $800,000. A $100,000 savings over bidding them separately multiple years apart.

I see what you're saying, and we face the same thing on some of our projects where one customer has multiple phases. It does save overhead costs to add phases as change orders to the original contract because you may avoid administrative costs, mobilization, etc., and while those translate to lower cost/higher profit for a contractor, the contractor could also pass those savings on to the state. However, it all depends on which contractor comes in with the best bid for each phase. If a second contractor bids your theoretical Phase 2 at $375,000, then the total bid would still be less.

[catch22]

I see what you're saying, and we face the same thing on some of our projects where one customer has multiple phases. It does save overhead costs to add phases as change orders to the original contract because you may avoid administrative costs, mobilization, etc., and while those translate to lower cost/higher profit for a contractor, the contractor could also pass those savings on to the state. However, it all depends on which contractor comes in with the best bid for each phase. If a second contractor bids your theoretical Phase 2 at $375,000, then the total bid would still be less.

That same contractor would likely bid less on the total contract anyhow, for example 775,000. Either way- the state would be better off.

[catch22]

Another thing, a contractor would likely charge a lower price for a contract of longer duration as it would equal more security for the company. A 5-year contract might be more attractive than a 2 year contract with no guarantee of getting the second contract several years later.

[jompster]

Right, and that makes sense as well. It's kind of a "six of one, half dozen of another" sometimes. It's all in how the projects are let out to bid. When you break it up into separately bidded phases, you will get some undercutting from competitors instead of selling all your eggs to the same bidder. But it really would seem better to let multiple phases to the same contractor. It would just be nice to get them all done much faster. I'm sure they're offering incentives on this as they are on the 235/44/77 interchange.

[bombermwc]

So what the above comments tell me is that it would be better (in that view) to not do phases, rather award the contract in one large lump...even if the work is completed in phases. It certainly would help speed things up, but with the way funding goes, even if we saved some overall, i dont think we'd have funds available to do that. We'd have to focus dollars on singular projects at a time instead of spreading them out around the state. So it's a change in view that the public would have to agree to. Are we ok with all dollars for 3 years going to one junction? Even if that junction is in Tulsa? Or do we feel better getting parts of it at a time while all of the state gets something?

[catch22]

So what the above comments tell me is that it would be better (in that view) to not do phases, rather award the contract in one large lump...even if the work is completed in phases. It certainly would help speed things up, but with the way funding goes, even if we saved some overall, i dont think we'd have funds available to do that. We'd have to focus dollars on singular projects at a time instead of spreading them out around the state. So it's a change in view that the public would have to agree to. Are we ok with all dollars for 3 years going to one junction? Even if that junction is in Tulsa? Or do we feel better getting parts of it at a time while all of the state gets something?

Well it is impractical the way things are set up in the Constitution. This is one of those times that using debt as a tool would be for the public and state's benefit. As it is currently setup, you are right it would have to focus on one or two larger projects at once and forget everything else for several years. Which is not good.

[king183]

A major part of the problem is ODOT is run by the contractors. Not literally, of course, but they exert major influence to get highly favorable contract terms and payments, with penalties that are rarely enforced and incentives that are for what they normally would do anyway (e.g., finish by X date). ODOT contract monitors roll over for the builders. In fairness to them, many want to be more aggressive, but know that when they are, they will promptly get a call from someone in the legislature complaining (because the contractor is a donor or friend).

[bombermwc]

I say all of this with the belief that tomorrow wont have this problem based on what was being said on the radio about the closure being until 3pm today.

2 left lanes of westbound were closed this morning. The result, complete stoppage all the way back to Sooner Rd as of 7:30am. A commute that normally takes me about 12 minutes, just shy of an hour today!!!!

I swear that the person that plans the westbound closures usually has his/her head up their rear and doesn't plan these things out worth a damn. If you need to close lanes, fine, close the outside lanes that you're working on, and leave the inside lane(s) open for the through traffic so the merging traffic is where the slow-down is, not the THROUGH stuff. Remember we're dealing with quite a few merging areas here...Easter, 35 from south, 35 from north, AND the 2 left lane closures......only to have it all swerve to the INSIDE lane.

So why was this done like this? I guess is to minimize the amount of effort expended to set up/take down the traffic cones for the above suggestion. Although i still feel like my method is the way they should have approached this from the beginning and not by doing the opposite (closing inside lanes and routing to the outside).

It's really frustrating when you drive through this every day and see so many people just sitting around playing with themselves too. Doesn't matter what time of day either. And what have we gotten out of this so far? A new center barrier that has new light and sign anchors, a rebuilt road surface that's lower than it was before (that'll totally help that flooding right) and is obviously temporary since it sucks so bad. I can't imagine what kind of crappy work is left on this portion since it was the 'easy' part.

[jn1780]

I bet they originally intended this to just be weekend work, but the bad weather Friday delayed things.

[bombermwc]

Well now it's the eastbound turn today. Only they took even longer to get started. By 730 am yesterday, the asphalt eater was already done with a full lane on the westbound side. Today at 730, they were still moving cones on the eastbound side to get ready for the work.

I REALLY dont understand why they are eating up the temporary asphalt already. So much of this project doesn't really seem to make sense....

[bombermwc]

Stupid contractor decision for Wednesday - make westbound close 2 left lanes, but then only have them closed for about 50 feet before it opens back up to 2 lanes. Let's go ahead and see how many people we can piss off today since the amount of road with cones on it was longer than the amount of road that actually had the lane closure. **** people.....

[jompster]

Stupid contractor decision for Wednesday - make westbound close 2 left lanes, but then only have them closed for about 50 feet before it opens back up to 2 lanes. Let's go ahead and see how many people we can piss off today since the amount of road with cones on it was longer than the amount of road that actually had the lane closure. **** people.....

This is why I've been avoiding I-240 completely. The reason for so many cones is because people don't know what "_____ lane closed" or |\ and |/ signs mean and try to get over at the last second.

[bombermwc]

Excatlly, every day is a new puzzle to try to figure out. The engineer on this project has to be an complete idiot because the schedule of what to do when has absolutely no cohesiveness. In any other project, you tear out the old crap and build the permanent stuff. You just leave the other parts alone until you're ready to do that. WIth this project, for example, they should have taken the outside lane out and left the inside 2 lanes alone until the outside was 100% complete. Then you've got a full 2 lanes open the whole time. WHen the inside is done, rip out the inside lanes on both sides and you can build the new center crap at the same time. It's not as though the timelines would interfere with the next phase since we're what, 2 years away from that. It might also help then by being able to focus on one area at a time since they seem to be so scatter-brained and short staffed that if you happen to catch someone actually DOING something when you drive by, they're often just picking their butt.

[SoonerDave]

Excatlly, every day is a new puzzle to try to figure out. The engineer on this project has to be an complete idiot because the schedule of what to do when has absolutely no cohesiveness. In any other project, you tear out the old crap and build the permanent stuff. You just leave the other parts alone until you're ready to do that. WIth this project, for example, they should have taken the outside lane out and left the inside 2 lanes alone until the outside was 100% complete. Then you've got a full 2 lanes open the whole time. WHen the inside is done, rip out the inside lanes on both sides and you can build the new center crap at the same time. It's not as though the timelines would interfere with the next phase since we're what, 2 years away from that. It might also help then by being able to focus on one area at a time since they seem to be so scatter-brained and short staffed that if you happen to catch someone actually DOING something when you drive by, they're often just picking their butt.

In general I would agree that the process of construction has been....to say the least...curious, but I do think the next phase of the project - the EB I-240 to SB I-35 ramp - is actually supposed to dovetail with the end of this first phase - within something like a month or so, as I understand it (at least I think someone in this thread posted a contract release for it). It's the *NEXT* part that's two years out - and I think that's the startup on the part that actually interchanges with I-35. While it's long overdue, that's going to be a nightmare once it starts.

[Plutonic Panda]

What's really gonna suck is that if the budget issues can't get worked out this time around and OKDOT has to take more cuts, they said there will be major impacts to the 8 year plan which would likely include ones like these which are already spread out.

[bombermwc]

I've been watching the concrete walls going up for months now, wondering what they were going to do with the top since they didn't seem to be lining up. My fear was that they'd do something stupid to cap it of instead of something nice. Well my fears have been confirmed this morning. They're pouring concrete in a mold fashion, which is a different height for every column of stone so it looks like complete crap. I grantee that the thinner sections are going to crack and crumble off in the short term. So far every step of this project has appeared to be done on the cheap...and it shows. And we're not even to the complicated parts yet!

[bombermwc]

Well it might not be as bad as i thought. They started adding pre-cast caps on top of the crappy molded concrete yesterday. Looks a LOT better when those got put in.

[SoonerDave]

Well it might not be as bad as i thought. They started adding pre-cast caps on top of the crappy molded concrete yesterday. Looks a LOT better when those got put in.

I'm interested in what appears to be the startup for the ramp work - I think they're doing some prep and material movement into the area just SW of the interchange, and it looks to me like they're getting close (closer?) to starting to carve out the route for the new ramp....still has me a little puzzled.

[flyfisher07]

I believe the next phase of work begins on March 6.

[emtefury]

I drive by everyday on the way to work. I too was wondering what they were going to do with the uneven top. Seems the cap has solved the problem. I did notice the lines of the squares along the wall are not lined up in some areas. I am guessing this is due to putting up the wall in sections. I can only look for so long at the lines before I have look back at the road. They just look off and not done well. Not sure why, but it seems the wall is taking a long time to build.

Another thing, on the westbound lane are they going to get rid of the rest of the concrete slope (you can see it before the bridge right below the off ramp). It looks bad with the new wall stopping at the old sloped concrete. There is also a tiny bit left on the east bound lane after the bridge.