Maps 4 Neighborhoods

[mkjeeves]

You make it sound so easy..."heck"...like it's the very LEAST that could/should be done. I honestly think people throw out ideas like this without considering scale, at all. Remaking OKC like that - touching EVERY neighborhood - would of course be great. But it would also cost billions and take decades. It's not something that could be accomplished with a MAPS-sized project.

Spreading the MAPS approach throughout the city sounds great in theory and may even work in practice, but people would need to understand that they can't get the same bang for their buck that they've had in previous iterations, which were designed to build game-changers that ostensibly benefit the ENTIRE community. A city-wide implementation would have to consist of mostly small, incremental changes and improvements, not dramatic ones. The city is just too big, geographically.

That's why I think if a new MAPS reaches beyond the inner city it should concentrate on key corridors, with the hope that adjoining neighborhoods and commercial properties build upon that momentum with private investment.

Maps 1 and 3 alone cost a billion, has taken two decades and it's not done yet. Yes, it will take money and time to affect the rest of the city. That's not a reason to not do it and let it fall apart over the same period.

It would benefit the entire community. 99+ percent of the people in the entire community work, live, shop, play, visit friends, have family and/or rely on resources outside of downtown.

Yes, incremental change makes the most sense. We can't fix everything at once and certainly not with a token amount of money.

Old proverb: The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. The next best time is now.

[mkjeeves]

On best ROI...and "the most bang for our buck"

I'm a business man. I own a business going on 26 years. I have money in investments, including real estate. I get it.

That said, when the carpet is filthy or worn out in your house you replace it. That's not because it's going to magically put more money in the bank, or increase the resale value. I'm not planning on selling my house anytime soon. I might wear it out and replace it two or three more times before I do. It's because you live there, and you work, earn money and pay taxes for a reason. Sometimes you make improvements to your surroundings because you can and your life would be more enjoyable, even when/if putting the money in some other activity might be a "better" investment. It all depends on what the metric is to make the decision about what's better. Happiness and well being for the people dealing with their immediate environment is pretty darn high on the list of metrics IMO.

[Just the facts]

You don't replace the carpet if you can't afford that much carpet. A wise man doesn't buy more than he can afford to maintain, but that is exactly what OKC has been doing for 60 years. Now it is getting junky and rundown and the amount of money to fix it is more than we can get and the growth model stopped working.

[bchris02]

Downtown is the city's living room, used by people from all of the different bedrooms. When you don't have enough money to re-carpet even a small percentage of the bedrooms and to do it right, and the living room is still a work-in-progress, wouldn't money be better invested continuing work on the living room?

[hoya]

You don't replace the carpet if you can't afford that much carpet. A wise man doesn't buy more than he can afford to maintain, but that is exactly what OKC has been doing for 60 years. Now it is getting junky and rundown and the amount of money to fix it is more than we can get and the growth model stopped working.

Its like my uncle who's got 12 cars in his yard. Most of 'em don't run, but he's got 'em. He'll fix them "one day".

[Just the facts]

Well it's too bad we can't have a dilapidated car registry where we can fine him or make him fix them.

[ctchandler]

Downtown is the city's living room, used by people from all of the different bedrooms. When you don't have enough money to re-carpet even a small percentage of the bedrooms and to do it right, and the living room is still a work-in-progress, wouldn't money be better invested continuing work on the living room?

Bchris,
I really believe what you say makes sense, but at my age and with my health problems, I don't spend much time in the living room (downtown) anymore, so why should I be interested in new carpet there when my bedroom needs it and that's where I spend most of my time? Actually, I would vote yes for a MAPS project designed for what we are discussing. You did make a very good point.
C. T.

[Just the facts]

At 45 I'm not all that old and I don't have any interest in waiting 25 years for any of this - bedroom, livingroom, or otherwise.

[Filthy]

That said, when the carpet is filthy or worn out in your house you replace it.

You don't replace the carpet if you can't afford that much carpet.

With all due respect, I think you guys are looking at it all wrong. This is OKC, so when your carpet gets worn, just build/buy a new house out in the "newest, latest/greatest" suburban sprawl hotbed, and rent your "worn out carpet house" to the lol poors! 3-5 years later, you can do it again! Rinse and Repeat! Never have to worry about worn out carpet ever again.

[mkjeeves]

Downtown is the city's living room, used by people from all of the different bedrooms. When you don't have enough money to re-carpet even a small percentage of the bedrooms and to do it right, and the living room is still a work-in-progress, wouldn't money be better invested continuing work on the living room?

Not even close. For the vast majority of Oklahoma City citizens it's primarily an amusement park they may or may not visit occasionally.

[Urbanized]

With all due respect, I think you guys are looking at it all wrong. This is OKC, so when your carpet gets worn, just build/buy a new house out in the "newest, latest/greatest" suburban sprawl hotbed, and rent your "worn out carpet house" to the lol poors! 3-5 years later, you can do it again! Rinse and Repeat! Never have to worry about worn out carpet ever again.

Touché

[bchris02]

Bchris,
I really believe what you say makes sense, but at my age and with my health problems, I don't spend much time in the living room (downtown) anymore, so why should I be interested in new carpet there when my bedroom needs it and that's where I spend most of my time? Actually, I would vote yes for a MAPS project designed for what we are discussing. You did make a very good point.
C. T.

This takes us back to the issue of priority. If there is only enough money for new carpet in a few rooms, how do you select which rooms get new carpet? How do you convince people in rooms not getting new carpet to vote for it for those who get selected?

NW 10th and Rockwell isn't important to a vast majority of people who live in OKC. Unlike downtown, most people in OKC never venture out there nor do they have a reason to.

[OSUFan]

Not even close. For the vast majority of Oklahoma City citizens it's primarily an amusement park they may or may not visit occasionally.

By that logic no part of the city deserves any investment because the vast majority of citizen don't primarily live or work in any one place of OKC compared to the city as a whole.

[Laramie]

At 45 I'm not all that old and I don't have any interest in waiting 25 years for any of this - bedroom, livingroom, or otherwise.

Has time passed?
Kerry, you're a young buck--same age as my daughter. I thought you were at least 25 when I first met you some 30 years ago at the old downtown library on 4th & Walker (Rem: free lance transit meetings). Got to admit, you look much younger now--lay off that fill & freeze, let the skin creators along with the crown of glory epitomize your age .

His (bchis02) analogy was simple and straight forward.

OKC has had extended periods of niagravated neglect; you're not going to wave a magic wand with overnight development. It's going to take as much time to fix up what was neglected for 20-25 years. May be the boost needed with those neighborhoods that are in revitalization.

[mkjeeves]

Not even close. For the vast majority of Oklahoma City citizens it's primarily an amusement park they may or may not visit occasionally.

By that logic no part of the city deserves any investment because the vast majority of citizen don't primarily live or work in any one place of OKC compared to the city as a whole.

I didn't say downtown didn't deserve investment, I've said many times including in this thread I voted for it, helped pay for it for the last twenty plus years, (still am every time I buy something in OKC) and it's a good thing.

Otherwise, that's exactly on point. My downtown (or living room) for all practical purposes isn't Downtown OKC. It's over here on the west end of OKC where I live, have my office and do most of my shopping and a good bit of fun. It's different for just about everyone in the city, thus, why we need to work on all those parts too.

[hoya]

Bchris,
I really believe what you say makes sense, but at my age and with my health problems, I don't spend much time in the living room (downtown) anymore, so why should I be interested in new carpet there when my bedroom needs it and that's where I spend most of my time? Actually, I would vote yes for a MAPS project designed for what we are discussing. You did make a very good point.
C. T.

No offense CT, but aren't you like 150 years old? Shouldn't you be spending all your money on hookers and drugs instead of carpet? Or like, praying for forgiveness to make up for anything bad you ever did? I can tell you for sure I'd be racking up some insane credit card bills, and laughing while I did so.

Just saying, it's a little bit different situation than the city finds itself in.

Edit: Point being, analogies to how we behave in our personal lives only go so far before they aren't applicable any more.

[mkjeeves]

Its like my uncle who's got 12 cars in his yard. Most of 'em don't run, but he's got 'em. He'll fix them "one day".

Just like Downtown OKC before we started.

[ctchandler]

No offense CT, but aren't you like 150 years old?

Hoyasooner,
Hey, give me a break, I'm only 108! I'm anxiously waiting for all of those folks older than me to croak so I can be the oldest toot in the world and be famous.
C. T.

[bradh]

Well it's too bad we can't have a dilapidated car registry where we can fine him or make him fix them.

or a registry where they could sell cars to people who want to fix them. i think there are plenty of those folks out there

[Teo9969]

Just like Downtown OKC before we started.

Downtown already had infrastructure. We didn't completely build downtown from scratch. It had businesses, restaurants, walkability, density. All these things that are 100% true of every great urban area of the world were extant in downtown. Sure they still need updating after years and years of work, but the bones were there.

NW10th Street west of I-44 has never been great. It was never even good. It was poorly planned to start, it was a grave mistake to start, and a complete misallocation of resources both public and private from the outset. There are no good bones. There is no good infrastructure. It was set up in the 1960s/70s to FAIL. And it has. It has completed its mission and now those who have "invested" in the area (and similar other areas) are acting surprised.

That seems to be the problem in all these conversations we have on this website. Those who support suburban sprawl will never come to grips with the reality that it is planned failure, intentional or otherwise. It completely ignores everything about what has made good planning since the decline of nomadism thousands of years ago. That's not even to say that everyone should live in an area as dense as Manhattan. The real point is that for an area to succeed, there needs to be a compelling marketplace and those simply don't exist in most areas of OKC (or other sprawled areas of the United States of America) and would be prohibitively expensive to fabricate in rundown areas of the city.

As Urbanized said BILLIONS of dollars. Unless you're ready to pay 20% sales tax, Lantana and its neighbors are going to have to continue to suffer. That doesn't mean the city isn't serious when it says it wants to get better…it just means the city is being wise about spending the limited resources that it does have.

[mkjeeves]

and yet, OKC suburbia is so poor it's been able to cough up a billion dollars to spend on its amusement park; has most of the jobs; residents and tax base that runs the city. How many more billions in subsidy does downtown want from the neighborhoods?

[bradh]

I live out towards Deer Creek (in OKC city limits) north of Kilpatrick, and even though Teo has essentially called people of my kind racist in this thread, he's absolutely right on why this "MAPS for Neighborhoods" is a terrible idea. mkjeeves from what I gather you own and run a business along NW 10th (or in that area) so of course this is a passionate subject for you.

[mkjeeves]

I live out towards Deer Creek (in OKC city limits) north of Kilpatrick, and even though Teo has essentially called people of my kind racist in this thread, he's absolutely right on why this "MAPS for Neighborhoods" is a terrible idea. mkjeeves from what I gather you own and run a business along NW 10th (or in that area) so of course this is a passionate subject for you.

No secret, I've posted it here before, I live and work east of Lake Overholser. Not on 10th, same ward, but not that far away from 10th. I've lived and my primary workplace has been in the same area for decades, but my work takes me all over the metro and the state. Once in a blue moon, downtown even. My situation isn't much different than most residents in that way.

I'm not pushing for anything in my hood at the expense of all other parts. As I said, Lantana is a poster child. A maps for neighborhoods would be for all neighborhoods. I do like the idea to split money into each ward as a possibility for discussion.

Don't let Teo beat you up, downtown is the new white flight zone. Just ask him, or read his post about it upthread. It's the typical well known result of gentrification. This isn't really the thread for that discussion though. IMO.

[bombermwc]

The only way maps for neighborhoods is going to work, is if you put a little money into all areas for some sort of work. A lot of people get annoyed at seeing so much of the city ignored by maps programs and so much focused on downtown. I would argue that downtown's revitalization is a MAJOR player in bringing OKC to where it is today. But I can also appreciate the fact that even driving down roads in some sectors, is a major hassle because they're so bad. There are areas guaranteed to flood when there isn't much rain. We've got water and sewer lines that are still made from clay. The list goes on and on. These are the things that are TOTALLY unsexy to do, but are absolutely necessary to keep the city functioning. The same story is being told all over the U.S. with our aging infrastructure. All the pretty lipstick on downtown doesn't mean anything if the water lines can't keep your crapper flowing at home or your house floods when there's an inch of rain.

[bradh]

I'm perfectly comfortable in my decision, no one is "beating me up." We love downtown (and other inner loop neighborhoods as well) and spend a good chunk of our free time down there, despite living 18 miles or so out. Despite not living there I'm a firm believer that an attractive and strong core is a bigger plus (and better return) than trying to spruce up pockets around town.

(sidenote: we should have an OKCTalk business directory on here of posters who own/operate their businesses so we support our own, like yourself)