Nordstrom's to Tulsa?

[Swake]

There’s a rumor with a some traction on TulsaNow that two very long time Tulsa institutions at Utica Square are going away. Miss Jackson’s, an upscale department store for women and Petty’s Fine Foods will be replaced by a new Nordstrom’s location. Utica will also add a Fresh Market in a new building at the southeast corner of the square.

[Pete]

Would be the world's tiniest Nordstrom.

Would even be small for a Nordstrom Rack.

[Swake]

I wouldn't think that they would keep the current buildings. Petty's is a one story building and Miss Jackson's building is three.

[Pete]

Still, the footprint of those two stores is very small; not nearly big enough for a Nordies, even if it was 3 stories tall.

[Spartan]

What is corroborating these rumors? Nordstrom will likely want subsidy...

[bchris02]

I know Tulsa punches a good deal above its weight, but are there any other metropolitan areas its size that have a full-fledged Nordstrom?

[gopokes88]

Future Nordstrom Store Openings

80% of the new locations are Racks
5% are relocations
15% are new full fledged Nordstroms they are in Toronto, Manhattan, Norwalk CT, Austin, Milwaukee, Minn, and Vancouver. Not saying Tulsa isn't in their sights but those are all big cities with lots of money. (Norwalk is part of the NYC metro)

[Swake]

The rumor is from some of the same people that knew very early about Trader Joe's. And Tulsa does have a funding mechanism in place to bring in new retail. Costco is getting some of that money, REI has decided to forego it in order to not have city council oversight on their development.

Cities about Tulsa's size or smaller with a full Nordstrom location:
Tulsa – 961,561

Metro areas with Nordstrom stores:
Salem, OR - 400,408
Orem, UT – 555,551
Richmond, VA – 1,260,029
Spokane, WA – 540,953
Anchorage, AK – 396,142
Hartford, CT – 1,212,381
Honolulu, HI – 953,207

That said, this is just a rumor at this point and the site is pretty small unless they go up 3+ floors or extend out into what is currently parking.

[gopokes88]

The rumor is from some of the same people that knew very early about Trader Joe's. And Tulsa does have a funding mechanism in place to bring in new retail. Costco is getting some of that money, REI has decided to forego it in order to not have city council oversight on their development.

Cities about Tulsa's size or smaller with a full Nordstrom location:
Tulsa – 961,561

Metro areas with Nordstrom stores:
Salem, OR - 400,408
Orem, UT – 555,551
Richmond, VA – 1,260,029
Spokane, WA – 540,953
Anchorage, AK – 396,142
Hartford, CT – 1,212,381
Honolulu, HI – 953,207

That said, this is just a rumor at this point and the site is pretty small unless they go up 3+ floors or extend out into what is currently parking.

I get all that but their future expansion patterns suggest they are banking hard on the rack concept and not as much of a full fledged store.

[bchris02]

Metro areas with Nordstrom stores:
Salem, OR - 400,408
Orem, UT – 555,551
Richmond, VA – 1,260,029
Spokane, WA – 540,953
Anchorage, AK – 396,142
Hartford, CT – 1,212,381
Honolulu, HI – 953,207

Hartford and Richmond are a tier above Tulsa population wise and in overall importance (though Tulsa does hold its own against those places in terms of amenities and quality of life). For the smaller cities, I think competition would also play a factor. In how many of those places is Nordstrom the sole upscale department store? Tulsa already has a lot of high-end retail, including Saks Fifth Avenue in the same shopping center. Considering that Tulsa isn't really growing very fast it makes me skeptical. Not to say it won't happen though.

[Zorba]

I wouldn't be shocked if Nordstrom's went into Tulsa, but my money would be replacing Sears at Woodland Hills. Utica square doesn't have any extra room, and the spaces being discussed are pretty small. Plus I think there is a lot more money, especially new money, in South Tulsa.

[SomeGuy]

If they ever open a Nordstrom in Tulsa, it should take Sears' spot in Woodland Hills imo.

[HOT ROD]

those smaller city locations (especially on the w coast) are there mainly when Nordstrom was a regional player in the Pac NW. As Nordies expanded and got more nationwide these locations were retained to retain the market but they are not major players for the company as a whole and many of them are basically Racks with commissioned sales teams (ie no to very little high end).

BTW, I worked at Nordstrom Corporate office in downtown Seattle (Finance) for a year in 2011 while I was inbetween roles at Microsoft [yes, I've worked at all 3 of Seattle's heritage companies at some point Microsoft, Boeing, Nordstrom] - and one of the decisions on our plate was what to do with medium sized markets without a Nordstrom presence. Ala - OKC has a Nordstrom Rack and I am an OKC expat (so put two and two together, YES - I was sure to note Oklahoma as an opportunity for the company).

Given my knowledge, I would bet the house that if Tulsa is on the radar (which they should be) then it would be a Nordstrom Rack and not a full Nordie because as has been mentioned the push is to International now (Canada) and I do recall the early negotiations with the City of Vancouver + Caddilac Fairview (the real estate titan that owns the Pacific Centre) just getting started when I was there. No shame in getting a Rack though, it's not an outlet it's just not commissioned sales and the clothes sit on 'racks' - that's the major difference along with being smaller.

[In_Tulsa]

Nordstrom Rack has been in Tulsa for a while now. It on 71st street.

[Swake]

the first shoe has now dropped. Miss Jackson's will be closing in January after 105 years in Tulsa.

The article doesn't say it, but Helmerich and Payne own both Utica Square and Miss Jackson's.

105-year-old upscale Tulsa retailer Miss Jackson's to close in January - Tulsa World: Local

[BG918]

I could see Crate & Barrel moving in there. Hope Petty's can remain in that spot.

[Plutonic Panda]

the first shoe has now dropped. Miss Jackson's will be closing in January after 105 years in Tulsa.

The article doesn't say it, but Helmerich and Payne own both Utica Square and Miss Jackson's.

105-year-old upscale Tulsa retailer Miss Jackson's to close in January - Tulsa World: Local

It seems others think H&M is going in there.

H&M, Five Below among the new retail concepts interested in Tulsa - Tulsa World: Real Estate

That seems to be a better fit anyways. I'd rather Nordstrom come to OKC but if they did locate in Tulsa it'd be better if they built a full sized store and went to the Woodland Hills mall and started a revamp because that mall is an embarrassment. It would be good if an upscale department store built a new add on to that mall.

[In_Tulsa]

Na

[In_Tulsa]

It seems others think H&M is going in there.

H&M, Five Below among the new retail concepts interested in Tulsa - Tulsa World: Real Estate

That seems to be a better fit anyways. I'd rather Nordstrom come to OKC but if they did locate in Tulsa it'd be better if they built a full sized store and went to the Woodland Hills mall and started a revamp because that mall is an embarrassment. It would be good if an upscale department store built a new add on to that mall.

You must mean Tulsa Promenade. Woodland Hills mall is the premier mall in the state.

[Plutonic Panda]

if they did locate in Tulsa it'd be better if they built a full sized store and went to the Woodland Hills mall and started a revamp because that mall is an embarrassment. It would be good if an upscale department store built a new add on to that mall.

You must mean Tulsa Promenade. Woodland Hill is the premier mall in the state.

No. I guess we have different opinions of what premier malls are. I wouldn't expect Tulsa or OKC to have a mall like the Galleria in Dallas or Northpark, but Woodland Hills seemed worse than Penn Square. Also, last time I checked, Penn Square was listed as the most luxurious and best shopping mall in the state. Now, when I think of malls, I think of Penn Square as a medium rate mall as far as high-end shopping malls go and unless it gets a huge remodel, it won't change. I wish they'd build a new high-end shopping mall somewhere, but at the same time, I don't want the other malls to die, so I think the metro needs about a million or so more people until a new high-end indoor shopping mall can be really successful. New indoor shopping malls are starting to be built again.

Have they done anything to it since two years ago?

BTW man, I'm not trying to dog on Tulsa. I used to do that a lot and it was pretty immature and I haven't done that. I even made a compilation for the city on citydata so people could see what's going on. Drove through Tulsa a couple days ago and it looked nice.

[Plutonic Panda]

Also, how is the Tulsa Promenade? I have never been in that mall.

[Swake]

Also, how is the Tulsa Promenade? I have never been in that mall.

Promenade is very similar to Penn Square, at least in the physical buildings. Both used to be outdoor shopping centers that were enclosed in the 1980s which leads to very narrow corridors and an aged feeling, and not in a good way. The mix of stores is much better at Penn Square since it is OKC's only version of an upscale shopping center and promenade has a good deal of vacancies, but the actual buildings are similar. Promenade is hurt by Utica just being three miles away and taking all the higher end stores. Promenade is nicer than Penn in that is has all structured parking and is better integrated into the surrounding area. Promenade is in a much nicer part of town, too. The area around Penn is pretty ugly.

41st and Yale, where Promenade is, used to have three malls. The nicer and largest of the malls was Southroad's, which was converted into a power center maybe 15 years ago. The third small mall, The Annex Mall, was demolished for strip centers. It would have been better if Promenade was torn down and Southroads remained as a mall instead.

Woodland is nice enough, it's like two malls in one with a more expensive nicer side with Dillards and Macy's and a cheaper side with JC Penny's and Sears. Once Sears leaves then I think you will see Nordstrom's or something similar locate at Woodland and that end of the mall will improve. I really just don't think there's space at Utica for Nordstrom's.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah Penn Square Mall really needs a huge revamp. It's nice for what it is, but that whole area and it's a shame because it sits within a stones throws and one of the richest parts of OKC. I think Penn Square Mall could be further remodeled and made nicer, but if OKC ever desires to have a true upscale mall it will need to be built from scratch, which I think will need another 500,000-1,000,000 people in the metro for it to be successful. We already have Penn Sqaure and Quail Springs with Sooner Mall in Norman, Crossroads in South OKC, and that mall on NW 23rd which I think needs to go.

I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is that Von Maur is very interested in Tulsa and plans an expansion there so a Von Maur and a Nordstroms would do wonders for that mall. All that'd be left JC Penny's to remodel their store at the Woodland Hills and then everything else would pretty much fall into place with the smaller stores all going more upscale. The only other thing I'd like to see is structured parking added and the mall expanded or mixed-use residential built similar to how the Stonebriar Mall in Frisco is set-up. That'd be a good location for an iFly as well.

[Zorba]

Promenade is very similar to Penn Square, at least in the physical buildings. Both used to be outdoor shopping centers that were enclosed in the 1980s which leads to very narrow corridors and an aged feeling, and not in a good way. The mix of stores is much better at Penn Square since it is OKC's only version of an upscale shopping center and promenade has a good deal of vacancies, but the actual buildings are similar. Promenade is hurt by Utica just being three miles away and taking all the higher end stores. Promenade is nicer than Penn in that is has all structured parking and is better integrated into the surrounding area. Promenade is in a much nicer part of town, too. The area around Penn is pretty ugly.

41st and Yale, where Promenade is, used to have three malls. The nicer and largest of the malls was Southroad's, which was converted into a power center maybe 15 years ago. The third small mall, The Annex Mall, was demolished for strip centers. It would have been better if Promenade was torn down and Southroads remained as a mall instead.

Woodland is nice enough, it's like two malls in one with a more expensive nicer side with Dillards and Macy's and a cheaper side with JC Penny's and Sears. Once Sears leaves then I think you will see Nordstrom's or something similar locate at Woodland and that end of the mall will improve. I really just don't think there's space at Utica for Nordstrom's.

I always liked Promenade, but they never could seem to keep stores. I used to go over there all the time for the AMC and then the Hollywood Theater in Promenade, but after The Tulsa got built I stopped going over there nearly as much, and I grew out of the going to the movies twice a week to make out phase.

I think the most likely place for a Nordstrom's to go in the state would be in the Sears location at Woodland. I have no idea how that Sears is doing, but I doubt it is doing well. If Nordstroms doesn't take it over, then I am sure Von Maur will. I really don't see either going anywhere else in Tulsa, unless they did a standalone store somewhere.

The Macy's at Woodland needs to renevate to become a real Macy's instead of a Foley's with a new name. I doubt that will happen unless a Nordstroms moves in, though.

[PhiAlpha]

Yeah Penn Square Mall really needs a huge revamp. It's nice for what it is, but that whole area and it's a shame because it sits within a stones throws and one of the richest parts of OKC. I think Penn Square Mall could be further remodeled and made nicer, but if OKC ever desires to have a true upscale mall it will need to be built from scratch, which I think will need another 500,000-1,000,000 people in the metro for it to be successful. We already have Penn Sqaure and Quail Springs with Sooner Mall in Norman, Crossroads in South OKC, and that mall on NW 23rd which I think needs to go.

I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is that Von Maur is very interested in Tulsa and plans an expansion there so a Von Maur and a Nordstroms would do wonders for that mall. All that'd be left JC Penny's to remodel their store at the Woodland Hills and then everything else would pretty much fall into place with the smaller stores all going more upscale. The only other thing I'd like to see is structured parking added and the mall expanded or mixed-use residential built similar to how the Stonebriar Mall in Frisco is set-up. That'd be a good location for an iFly as well.

I don't think that is true nor is a new mall likely to be built. Penn Square is fine size-wise, it could probably use another anchor buildout, change in tenant mix, and maybe a remodel. Quality-wise, it isn't any different than Woodland Hills, just smaller.