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Thread: Maps III

  1. Default Maps III

    I have heard talks about a MAPS III. Some ideas being tossed around are inprovements to the State Fairgrounds and extending the Bricktown Canal to go in between the Ford Center and the Cox Convention Center and make its way to the ponds in the Botanical Gardens. I think that both of these things would be great for OKC.

    There have also been talks about a light rail system. I like that because I think that OKC should continue to look ahead and be progressive in thought... plan for the future. Also, has anyone heard about talks of building a town center somewhere in downtown?

  2. #2
    Patrick Guest


    I'm glad that talks for a MAPS 3 are about to begin. Hopefully we can leave Tulsa in the dust. I've heard about all of the ideas that have been mentioned.
    I think they're all great. I'm glad that we finally have a mayor with a visionary mind. Kirk Humphreys was okay, but I'm glad to see young blood in there. Mick has a great vision for our city. And most of all, he supports light rail.
    Here's what I'd like to see in MAPS III.

    1. Continued renovations and expansion of Cox Center
    2. New library in far NW OKC (desparately needed).
    3. Further improvments on N. Canadian River (more parks and landscaping)
    4. A start-up light rail system downtown using either Union Station or Santa Fe station
    5. Extension of canal to meet up with Myriad Gardens, and extension of south canal to meet Zone G of the canal.
    6. Downtown multipurpose stadium (football, MLS soccer)
    7. Oil derrick landmark (similar to space needle in Seattle)- this would give our city a symbol
    8. Landscaping and streetscaping projects throughout the city. This MAPS needs to really focus on beautification of our city. I drove by Flower Park the other day just south of NW Expressway on Classen, and didn't see a flower one.

    9. Further improvements at Will Rogers World Airport

  3. #3
    Patrick Guest


    Wasn't sure how to edit my post, but I didn't include imnprovements to the State Fair Grounds on my list. That probably needs to be first on the list.

  4. Default Maps Iii

    We need to take a breath here. A MAPS III would be the product of the creative class wish list that is the project of the human capital and diversity taskforce that the chamber of commerce is forming. I don't think it's set in stone yet.

    The projects that come out of MAPS III may not even be capital in nature. A point of Richard Florida's book is that big-ticket capital projects are not what members of the creative class look for in a city. He states that their desires (which merit separate discussion) are in what I call the softer elements -- leisure and recreation, interesting neighborhoods, low barriers of entry into society (do you have to be somebody to make things happen?), creative opportunity. These are fleshed out in trails and parks, art galleries, unique shops, condo developments and apartments, cafes with common areas, performing arts venues.

    In other words, what the creative class looks for isn't typically what cities have built in the past (except parks). It has not been the role of government to build bars, galleries, or waterfront condos. If capital projects come as part of this MAPS III, they will not be the result of this wish list, but an adjunct to it.

    Having said that, here some creative class-inspired ideas for MAPS III:

    - a new building (classrooms and forum space) for a beefed-up Downtown College Consortium (and change that name)

    - a creative business incubator with galleries, studios, computer labs, state-of-the-art conference rooms (and first floor supply shop and coffeehouse) in addition to office space

    - a redesigned Omniplex

    - commuter/light rail linking Norman, OKC, and Edmond (N-S) and airport to downtown to the adventure district (E-W)

    - a Grayline-type trolley bus connecting OKC's unique districts (N. Western, Little Asia, Paseo, Capitol Hill, Stockyards City)

    - as Patrick mentioned, Canal extensions and river development (tennis courts, a golf course, and boat slips)

    - a mall or boulevarding on Robinson, connecting downtown to the river

    - start up funding for the nonprofit group Oklahoma City Public Art (we can dream, can't we?)

  5. Thumbs up

    Take the light rail system and turn it into the worlds longest monorail system. Start by updating and keeping the one at the fair grounds, making it a historical landmark (only a hand full of monorails exist), and run it throughout the metro.

  6. Default

    Does OKC have an opera? After spending six months in Italy, I would like to see OKC fund an opera.

    My Ideas for MAPS III:

    -Fully Funded Opera
    -Improvements to State Fair Park
    -Light Rail (I have come to enjoy public transportation)
    -Canal extensiion and river development (I like the idea of tennis courts)
    -Continued renovation of Cox Center (The arena needs some work)
    -Redesigned Omniplex (I like this idea... make this place look better)
    -Funding for Art (public art, another art museum, funding to encourage downtown galleries, etc.)
    -Streetscaping and Landscaping
    -Sports Stadium (My love for soccer has grown quite a bit)
    -Creative business incubator (I really like this idea)

    There are many ways that we can improve OKC. A lot of great things have happened in OKC the past ten years. It is exciting to know that things are going to continue to improve. The quality of life is getting better.

    The work that they are doing at Will Rogers World Airport is great. It will be a really nice airport when it is all said and done, but I hope that they continue to make improvements and keep it a first rate facility.

    We also need to continue to improve our parks. Continued improvements to the parks near the on the river are necessary for attracting the creative class to live in downtown OKC.

  7. #7
    Patrick Guest


    I fully agree with floater. MAPS III ought to focus more on beautifying our city. More public art, streetscaping and landscaping, more trails, more parks, improve the parks we have and landscape them, etc. And focus on education.......Give OU some land to build a better facility downtown. Build better libraries. I also like the creative business incubator idea. Light rail is definitely a must. And improving our Fair grounds is a must.

    We surely need to improve the appearance of our highways.

    Maybe we should fund OKC Beautiful and make them a city agency, instead of letting them just exist off donations. They do a good job with what they have, they just have so little money to work with.

    I know Omniplex isn't that appealing in looks, but it is actually a pretty decent science museum. I'm not sure if it's a top priority right now, as there are so many other things that need to be done.

    I'd say there are 3 priorities:
    1. City beautification
    2. State Fair Grounds (Keep the race track, but either modernize it, or build a new one- and tear down All Sports Stadium- it's an eyesore). I know increasing the hotel tax will pay for part of this, but not all. The fair grounds will stil need $200 million more, after the $100 million from the increased hoel tax. BTW, vote yes for that in November. We haveone of the lowest hotel taxes in the nation, so it won't hurt for us to raise it, and it will help keep horse shows in town by putting money into the livestock areas at State Fair Park.
    3. Light Rail

    Also, I agree that the convention center needs more work. If they want to keep the arena in there, then renovate it. If not, turn ut into meeting space.....large gathering rooms, similar to the ballroom that was added on.
    I think we should make an addition to the south side of the Cox Center that's identical to the north side. Make it look uniform, while giving us a second ball room, and 20 more meeting rooms, like was added on in the last ronations. These improvements would continue to spur hotel development downtown and attract more conventions.

  8. Default Opera

    OKC actually does have an opera company, the Cimarron Circuit Opera Company. I've never attended a concert (for shame) so I don't know how it matches up with other American companies.

  9. Default

    Where does the opera company perform? I would love to see one perform in the Civic Center Music Hall.

    We should try to get an Art Institute in downtown. Maybe also try to get culinary arts institution. OSU has a great school for Hotel and Restaurant Administration. If you graduate with that degree, you can acquire a culinary arts degree in two years instead of four from many institutions, but it would be cool if they would open a program for a degree in Culinary Arts in downton OKC. I was reading where Nona's Painted Door is working on becoming a certified training institution for culinary students.

    Art Institute has degrees in many forms of art... design, fashion, culinary, media arts and culinary. That could atract many young creative people to live and play in the core of OKC.

  10. Default

    Ahhh, the ideas come spilling forth...sorry, the CCOC is based out of Norman but they tour out through the metro area.

    Yeah, I imagined one of the tenants of the incubator could be a cooking school...right now that void is filled by some vo-techs in the area, as well as a program headed by OKC's premier chef, Kurt Fleichfresser (something like it) of Coach House fame.

    I think an art institute is long overdue in OKC. People may think there is no market (student base) for such, but most people are not born with appreciation of design. It takes some acculturation, and an institute could go a long way toward that. It could include all those you mentioned, plus conventionally practical fields such industrial design, architecture, and urban design. An industry-oriented town such as this one would do well to develop expertise in industrial design.

    I envision the tenants of the incubator (in the absence of such an institute) conducting seminars, forums, and talks about different expressions and innovations. It would have galleries of graphic arts, fashions, etc that would entertain visitors. I would serve as an economic generator, tourist opportunity, educator, and discussion moderator, all at the same time.

  11. #11
    Patrick Guest

    Default Jazz Lab

    Not sure if any of you have been up to the UCO Jazz lab in Edmond, but I think something like that would be really cool, eiter in the arts district, or in Deep Deuce. Maybe UCO or another university's music program (like OU) could open up a combined art institute and jazz lab in the art's district.

    The one thing we really need right now in the Art's district is art studios. We have a museum and plenty of musical stuff and drama at Stage Center and Civic Center. But we need actual live artists downtown.....like Greg Burns for instance. If we could get him to move out of Casady Square and into the Art's District that would be awesome. Maybe it would start something.

  12. Default

    A jazz lab would be cool. I have a dream that there will come a day when there are many great music venues in downtown... mainly the Deep Deuce and Bricktown area. The area in between the two could be a pretty nice place to develop music venues.

    I went to a small hole in the wall jazz lounge in Amsterdam called the Alto. It was a tiny bar... the size of a trailer maybe, really long and narrow. It was packed with people and the drinks were flowing. We went there three nights in a row. There were different bands everynight. Obviously, as more people begin to live downtown, more stuff will be built. I know many young people that are living in Deep Deuce and I know that it is becoming quite the thing to do. I am hope that young people continue to migrate towards downtown. They need to maintain a healthy mix of young and old and in between, but young people wanting to live in downtown is key.

  13. #13
    Patrick Guest


    I agree...we need more live music venues downtown. Under Moshe Tal's plan for the canal, he called for the Oklahoma Opry to move to the canal and a Country Music Complex to be built. I like those ideas, and wish Hogan would incorporate them into his plan.

    A Toby Keith venue and restaurant will be built next to the Bricktown theater, so that's a start. Maybe other music venues will follow.

  14. Default Re: Maps III

    Time to dream again. What if the Downtown College Consortium (or some other college/university) found funding through a MAPS III to expand its offerings and physical presence downtown? How could it fit, in or close to the business district?

    Here's how four architectural firms envision ASU's ambitious campus move to downtown Phoenix:

    Continue the Renaissance

  15. Default Maps III Ideas

    Here are some ideas I have for MAPS III that could further enhance central Oklahoma City, mainly the downtown area.

    - Create a major city plaza to enhance the Deep Deuce district with excellent shopping that would compliment Bricktown's dining and entertainment options. This idea is actually being brainstormed by a group of local developers, and I hope Oklahoma City leaders back them up on this.

    - Link every downtown district and inner city attraction with pedestrian and biking trails. This would be a major enhancement to residents living in the area's historic neighborhoods. It would be nice to be able to rollerblade from the Paseo Arts District to the Arts District downtown and Bricktown. Residents living in Bricktown or downtown midrises could easily ride their bikes to work in the biotech research park at OU Medical Center or the St. Anthony Medical Campus.

    - Build a major city park along the north bank of the river to compliment the skate park along the south bank, which is getting ready for construction soon. This major city park would include excellent tennis facilities, a golf course, top-notch soccer fields and lush gardens.

    - And of course, the major overhaul of State Fair Park, unless that becomes a completely seperate project. Oklahoma City leaders definitely need to be sure that the new structures at State Fair Park must be architecturally eye-catching. And if racing fans insist that State Fair Speedway has to stay, at least remodel the Grandstand. It is a 1950's eyesore.

    Any other ideas fro MAPS III?

  16. #16
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Maps III

    Hey floater, wow....you're starting to remind me of Larry Fry, with all of this leg work on finding these sites. Those plans for ASU are awesome. Could you imagine if we had a college locate downtown, the type of impact it would have on our city. I wouldn't necessarily want a college to move from another location to downtown, but why not start a new college downtown, or have OSU build a second main campus downtown? I would've said OU since I'm a student at OUHSC and side that way, but we already have OU close by. Or even a new regional university similar in size to ECU or NEOSU locating downtown would be great. Hmmmm......how bout calling it Bricktown University? Just kidding!

    OKC Pulse, your ideas for MAPS III are outstanding. A shopping plaza in Deep Deuce would be great. We're gradually beginning to run out of space on Bricktown canal middle segment, as the theater, Sonic Building, Toby Keith venue, Embasy Suites, and other restaurants locate there. I'm sure there's plenty of room on the north canal for more shops, but we really need a shopping district or plaza as you mention somewhere close. San Antonio has Market Square just a few blocks north of the Riverwalk.....it fits in their downtown area very nicely, and has several shops and cafes. I'm glad to hear local developers are looking into such a plan.

    Maybe the city could later extend the canal down Oklahoma Avenue, below Sheridan, east on Main St., and then north up through the Deep Deuce Square area. That would be nice and would give both areas a connection.

    I'm also a big proponent of your trails plan. Fortunately, our city is too. City hall continues to add to the Master Plan for the city-wide trail system. Frm what I've seen, the plan rigt now is to connect the Lake Hefner Trails with those at Lake Overholser....connect those with those on te N. Canadian River, and then connect those to Stanley Draper. Of course that's an ambitious plan and many years into the future, but I think it's a great idea. But I like your idea of tying neighborhoods together with major attractions.

    I think one of the main things we're missing in OKC that Tulsa has are good neighborhood districts. I've noticed our city promoting the Western Avenue distric more, and I think that's great. It remind me somewhat of Brookside in Tulsa.
    We have several other districts in town we need to promote and build up more,
    and many more we can create. Stockyards City is okay, but really could use expanding. Fortunately, there's already so much there to work with. We just need to promote it more. Capitol Hill could be the capitol of Mexican cuisine, Mexican art, and Mexican dance. Paseo could use a facelift and street-scaping.
    Little Saigon is already becoming quite an Asian cultural district. The Farmer's Market area also could be a really awesome place if the right developer got a hold of it.

    For the most part, all of these areas could use more publicizing. I love Bricktown, but sometimes I feel that in the midst of the focus we place on Bricktown, we lose focus on our neighborhood districts. It's funny me saying this though, because the folks in Tulsa are saying the exact opposite...they say they like Brookside, Cherry Street, and Greenwood, but wish tey'd focus more on downtown.

    If only we could have it both ways!

    I completely agree with the major park idea for the Oklahoma River! I know there are some parks already on the river, but many of them just aren't that attractive. We could really use a lot more quality parks on the river. Starting off with an anchor park would be a good move, and then we could build smaller parks all along the river, complete with picnic tables, baseball fields, trails, playground equipment, fishing piers, boat docks, pavilions, etc. The anchor park could have all of these amenities, plus the extra ones you mention. We could build a state of the art, lighted 36 hole championship golf course and call it Oklahoma Golf Course.......the best course in the state!

    I fully agree that the State Fair needs to be on the top of the priority list for MAPS III. The buildings need to be completely renovated, and the grounds need a major overhaul. From the highway right now, our fair grounds look like an eyesore, especially the area where All Sports Stadium is located, and on the south side where the open field parking is located. All of the lights need to be replaced and updated with modern lamp posts. The fields need to be paved, and in the midst of the parking lots, lush gardens need to be planted. The names of the buildings at the fair grounds needs to be changed. There hasn't been anything international in the international building for years. Nothing Modern in the Modern Living Building for years. About the only building that sticks with its title is the arts and crafts building. All of the others need to be renamed.

    I think the main thing we need at the fair grounds is a decent landscaping plan. Right now the grounds as a whole look horrible! Not sure who is in charge, but there obviously is not landscaping plan!

    In my opinion, the monorail needs to stay, we just need to buy some modern cars for it. We should keep a Grandstand, but maybe tear down the current one, and build a new modern facility. The one at the Tulsa Fair Grounds is pretty nice.

    Great ideas! Keep them coming!

  17. #17
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Maps III

    I'll contact Mick Cornett and Burns Hargis and tell them about the great MAPS III ideas being passed around on this forum.

  18. Default Re: Maps III

    I doubt that OSU will ever do much with OKC. They have a master plan to have over 10,000 students at the Tulsa Campus. It is really close to downtown Tulsa and I believe that they have plans to expand more towards downtown. I know that they are getting some money from Vision 2025.

    I am currently in Dallas. I flew in today. I will be in OKC tomorrow for a glorious lunch at Taco Bueno. I am going to meet with some people in the next few weeks from the HRAD college at Oklahoma State. OSU has one of the top Hotel and Restaurant Administration programs in the country. They need to have a program in OKC. What better place is there? Soon, there will be a Hilton, Westin, Marriot, Renaissance and Embassy Suite in downtown. With those hotels and all of the restaurants and convention services, it is the ideal location for such a school. Maybe they can develop a graduate program or a culinary program or incorporate such a campus into the existing program.

  19. Default Re: Maps III

    Hey TS! Good to see you back home! Enjoy Taco Bueno when you make it to Oklahoma City. And, let us know what you think of the progress being make at Oklahoma City's airport once you make it in! BTW, it will be a good idea to put such a school downtown. The hotels will have excellent competition once they are all open and pushing for OKlahoma City convention traffic.

  20. #20
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Maps III

    I think a Hotel and Restaurant Administration program from OSU downtown would be great. But as floater ahas said, we also need to find a university that could build a consortium downtown. OU already has a small one in the Santa Fe Parking garage, but we can do better than that. Hmmmm. OU doesn't really have any spin off campuses anywhere and they do already have a consortium downtown, which they share with UCO. Maybe OU could build a new location downtown, possibly to the west of the Arts District. With David Boren's mind, I'm surprised he hasn't come up with the idea alreeady.

  21. Default Re: Maps III

    That would be interesting to hear Mayor Mick Cornett's thoughts on our ideas in this forum. And, it would be awesome to see the ideas of this forum come to fruition.

    Continue the Renaissance!

  22. #22
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Maps III

    I'll definitely tell Mick about the forum. As with other city leaders, not sure if he'd have time to read it, but he might take a look at it every once in awhile. I know back when we used to post on Talkback and MAPS Forum I let my council woman (I can't remember her name right now....she was before Sam Bowman in Ward 2....Amy???) know about our ideas, and she definitely listened and replied to me via email. Joe Schmoe, former webmaster for the city, said that city leaders read the ideas posted on the old city forum from time to time.

  23. Default Re: Maps III

    Before I even go to the last page and read, I would just like to say that I think it would be insanely ignorant for OKC to spend any more money in the Bricktown area. This area is alreaday moving along, so OKC DEFINITELY needs to focus on citywide beautification and maybe another downtown district. As far as the river trails and trees...the trees are pathetically small, and no offense to anyone because I know this is the OKC forum, but OKC riverparks will NEVER...NEVER be what Tulsa's is...will NEVER happen. So instead of copying again... Why not use that money to push more businesses along the river. That is something that OKC can do that could beat out Tulsa. Tulsa only has so much land to develop along the river with the riverparks, even been talk about creating a bridge/retail across the river just so they could get some development in...So don't use your riverfront to try and creat riverparks...let business be next to the river and then if there must be trails, put them behind the businesses. Now I will go on and read the rest of the thread!

  24. #24
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Maps III

    Have you been reading pages out of our River Trust's playbook??? LOL
    Yeah, it appears that the river project will focus more on private development than on parks and the like. There are already trails that have been built, as you noticed, and a few parks, but for the most part, Lake Hefner has become the main destination for trail users! It's also a pretty nice place to eat.....not sure if you've ever been out to East Wharf! Bahama Breeze is a treat!

    From what Ron Norick has said, there are already tons of proposals for apartments, office complexes, etc. along the river. But before any offers are made, the current project will have to be completed and a new Master Plan for development will have to be made....it's currently in the works!

    BTW, Water Taxi rides should begin on the Oklahoma River sometime next Spring or Summer. Water Taxi will run larger water craft on the river! Rides will run between Bricktown and the Meridian Ave. Hotel/Entertainment district. Fortunately our city planned ahead, as there are locks on the Western Ave. and May Ave. dams!!!

  25. #25

    Default Re: Maps III

    I've seen some of the master plan TAP Architecture put together for the Oklahoma riverfront. It looks like they want to create a dense area of mid-rise residential and office buildings on the southside of Bricktown by the river, where I-40 currently runs. There's a lot of industrial land just south of the current highway, what are the plans for all of that once I-40 is moved?

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