West Village

[Urbanized]

Geez man, of all people I appreciate your tanacity and commitment to urbanism principles. But every single post here doesn't have to be a sermon.

[Bellaboo]

I seriously doubt the OKC economy is built on $100 oil. It hasn't been $100 forever. A conventional well is very profitable when oil is 42 per barrel. This morning oil was at 48, and it's been climbing lately. For horizontal wells to be profitable, it needs to be in the 60 to 70 range, and this all depends on the well, etc.

[bchris02]

Geez man, of all people I appreciate your tanacity and commitment to urbanism principles. But every single post here doesn't have to be a sermon.

+1

[Just the facts]

Geez man, of all people I appreciate your tanacity and commitment to urbanism principles. But every single post here doesn't have to be a sermon.

No, just explaining why this project will not get canceled because of a downtown in oil prices, and why in the long-term it will hope OKC thrive despite the ups and downs of the local oil companies.

[Rover]

Let me say this about oil price and OKC development. Sprawls is built on debt and surplus money. When times get financially lean urban density is the cure. The reason OKC fares so poorly when oil prices go down is because the local economy is built on $100 oil. If the so-called corporate visionaries in OKC would exercise a little thrift and good development patterns in the good times the bad times wouldn't get so bad.

You have become the Russel Westbrook of new urbanism. No matter what the issue, your answer is the same. Or maybe you are this generation's Chauncey Gardner.

[Rover]

No, just explaining why this project will not get canceled because of a downtown in oil prices, and why in the long-term it will hope OKC thrive despite the ups and downs of the local oil companies.

I can say with certainty you have no idea why and if this project may or may not get built or cancelled.

[Spartan]

Let me say this about oil price and OKC development. Sprawls is built on debt and surplus money. When times get financially lean urban density is the cure. The reason OKC fares so poorly when oil prices go down is because the local economy is built on $100 oil. If the so-called corporate visionaries in OKC would exercise a little thrift and good development patterns in the good times the bad times wouldn't get so bad.

I'm a little confused. In your hermetically sealed vacuum of ideology, you aren't considering that OKC's growth is a function of that same oil economy. We need oil to go back up, which it will. When we have growth is the time to take advantage for urban development. We really do need the growth machine.

You also neglect to consider the extent to which the economies of both downtown and the suburbs are interconnected. The suburban stretches of OKC proper knew they needed a strong downtown when they voted for MAPS I in 1993. This goes both ways.

I almost always agree with you (Kerry) on OKC's need to do better. This Hall Capital project is OKC doing better, so let's be cool here.

[Just the facts]

I'll just say this and then drop this portion of the subject. Look at Detroit. With all their problems and an industry that actually did self-destruct, they realize their only hope for survival is density. In 25 years they will be the model city every one looks to.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...ot-of-hope.php

http://www.wired.com/2013/09/detroit...slideid-259871

I'll give someone else the last word if they choose.

[Spartan]

I was in Detroit two weeks ago for the opening of the Detroit Auto Show. The city is very bombed out, except for anything along Woodward Avenue which is doing very well. Especially in the suburbs, where several urban suburbs (Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Pontiac, Northville, Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor, Grosse Pointe, etc) are keeping Metro Detroit stable. Michigan is still one of the top states in the nation for R&D.

Overall Metro Detroit and Michigan are doing very well. Detroit is just an epic disaster of sprawl as well - but for a metro of 5 million people, it still has a lot of vibrant and dense areas.

[ljbab728]

well, technically it is the same developer therefore the same project, although I can see where you're coming from.

I think the question we need to be asking ourselves here is: what is time. If you were alive in the early 50's, you'd be supraised to learn your are, in fact, a four dimensional character. Assuming I moved from point a to point b, you might say I used to be in another place which would imply past tense and therefore there would be a separation of present and past, but you can't prove that. Not even video evidence could really prove anything because we're in the present in our place. Do the math man. Albert Einstein was wrong about one thing; there could be an alternate universe for every second and thereafter at all times for infinity and beyond(that's right I went Buzzlightyear on you deal with it) always creating new universes for every second that passes for every possible outcome there could ever be. That includes me the in a town called Cougar Town, oh wait, they already have that, but this is their last season!!!! no matter, alternate universes take care of that and so does the Friends bar which I've been going to multiple times a week because it's such a nice bar.

Well, I better get off of here before Ljbab gets mad at me for being awake this time of night...

It's a good thing you posted this after I went to bed last night, plupan.

[ChrisHayes]

I just found out about this today and I love how this area could be redeveloped. To the average person from out of town, this area of downtown has blight and decay written all over it. I like the idea of preserving a couple buildings in addition to 21c, but the bulldozers can knock down the rest. I just hope it's developed right. Something different than sprawling apartment complexes

[Plutonic Panda]

Hall Capital investment fund buys two warehouses near Will Rogers World Airport in Oklahoma City | News OK

[Pete]

I've heard from good sources this project is still very much on track.

FlashBack RetroPub will be first to blaze a trail in this general area but it won't be long before 21c, the music hall and the surrounding properties join them.

This area is going to start to change very quickly.

[bchris02]

I've heard from good sources this project is still very much on track.

FlashBack RetroPub will be first to blaze a trail in this general area but it won't be long before 21c, the music hall and the surrounding properties join them.

This area is going to start to change very quickly.

Great news. I was worried that the Convention Center debacle would bring this into question but its awesome to see that its still on track. That side of the core has so much untapped potential.

[Spartan]

I've heard from good sources this project is still very much on track.

FlashBack RetroPub will be first to blaze a trail in this general area but it won't be long before 21c, the music hall and the surrounding properties join them.

This area is going to start to change very quickly.

It had the potential to be an amazing big-picture transformation, but apparently not enough people saw it that way back when it mattered (while the boulevard was under design).

[Architect2010]

It had the potential to be an amazing big-picture transformation, but apparently not enough people saw it that way back when it mattered (while the boulevard was under design).

Why wouldn't it have any potential now? I'm confused. Didn't known the success of this project hinged on which form of the boulevard was selected.

[LakeEffect]

Why wouldn't it have any potential now? I'm confused. Didn't known the success of this project hinged on which form of the boulevard was selected.

The grid option would have afforded more chance for development south of this area, but the district that's really affected by the chosen blvd option is the Farmer's Market District. They'll lose potential.

[Spartan]

Why wouldn't it have any potential now? I'm confused. Didn't known the success of this project hinged on which form of the boulevard was selected.

The success of THIS project doesn't. The success of anything on the other side of the boulevard, however, obviously does. I would argue that the Film Row area would have been more successful as well with a better boulevard, and being more connected to the Farmer's Market area. The post I was responding to suggested a "big-picture" overview of west downtown, which in order to see, you have to pan out a little from any single development.

[Chitty]

Could be completely unrelated, but as to who could be behind/involved with the Music Hall, I happened to see Scott Booker (ACM@UCO pres/flaming lips manager) and his right hand man Derek Brown walking into the offices of Hall Capital just about a week ago.

[Pete]

Don't look now, but OKC is on the verge of going from about a 2 to at least an 8 on the live music scale:

• Chesapeake Arena no longer under construction and thus fully available apart from the Thunder
• Bricktown Events Center completely remodeled and much better venue
• Criterion Concert Hall under construction and attached to Live Nation
• Tower Theater will almost certainly be a live music venue with a strong booking component (newish info)
• ACM@UCO continues to have live shows
• Hall Capital Music Hall soon to start
• Chisholm Creek will have an amphitheater and indoor music venue, likely booked by Live Nation

And then you still have all the existing places.

[soonerguru]

Wow. This is very exciting news.

[Teo9969]

I really have to wonder if one of the biggest plagues to OKC in the last 25 years has been a large abundance of relatively wealthy individuals spending their money in other economies. Obviously at different times it's been worse or better, but it's insane to think that we've been so far behind in the restaurant/retail/music scene/entertainment for so long until recently. All of those things are getting better every single year by quite an impressive margin.

It's all very excellent news!

[bchris02]

I really have to wonder if one of the biggest plagues to OKC in the last 25 years has been a large abundance of relatively wealthy individuals spending their money in other economies. Obviously at different times it's been worse or better, but it's insane to think that we've been so far behind in the restaurant/retail/music scene/entertainment for so long until recently. All of those things are getting better every single year by quite an impressive margin.

It's all very excellent news!

Good points. I've only been back since 2012 and its impressive how much that is taken for granted now wasn't here even then.

Because of OKC's central location and low cost of living, it really hasn't been a big deal for people who live here to spend the weekend in Tulsa or in Dallas. I once spoke with a guy who moved back here in the middle of the last decade from a big city, I forget where, and he said that when he first moved back he and his wife would spend almost every weekend in DFW. Today, as things have improved in OKC he doesn't go down there near as often.

[Rover]

For a very long time OKC suffered a very, very poor self image. It was much cooler to say you got something in Dallas than OKC. Good restaurants and shops here failed over and over for a long time. But much has changed. Being Okie now is no longer the negative it was. The national perception has changed dramatically due to four things: the way the local people handled the tragedy of the bombing; the willingness of the citizens to PAY for improving the city (we take Maps for granted); the arrival of the NBA and the resultant association with other important cities that brings with it; and, the resurgence of the energy business in the US and specifically natural gas and OKC companies' role in discovery and development.

All those things have made OKC feel better about itself. When you feel better about yourself, others view you differently.

Sometimes I get criticized on here for being too positive it seems. But, I have been here and have been a loyal business person in this community for a long time. I have witnessed what happens to the city when disparate parties are working only for their own good and only from their own perspectives. When we learned to support each others' ideas with compromise without losing the drive for excellence, we began to rise. While we have lots to work on here, we shouldn't lose sight of how far we've come and how we got here.

[Pete]

As much as I look forward to the awesomeness of 21c and know the surrounding development will be a complete game-changer for west downtown, I'm going to miss the ultra-cool grittiness of all these buildings.

Couple of notes: 1) the metal structures in the 3rd photo are staying and should look really cool when everything is finished; 2) the two old buildings on the left of the last photo will be demolished; the music venue will be at the far right.