OKC Vs. Tulsa

[Plutonic Panda]

I know you are young and have made a number of serious mistakes.

When do you choose to grow up?

Define "growing up." I could be 60, and I'll still be what society considers "growing up."

[Plutonic Panda]

Nobody cares how much you hate Tulsa. I don't see what makes Tulsa vastly different from most other mid sized American cities, but perhaps there is something that only you can see that is truly awful about it.

If you have to go on complaining about Tulsa, you should do it in a more intelligent way than simply declaring that everything just "sucks."

No one cares? Well, I somehow disagree with that. I have landarchepoke who is going out of his/her way to come up with insignificant districts, some of which are ghetto af, and for whatever reason is trying to say I never visit Tulsa, which is fine. I don't have to prove myself. People don't want to believe me, I could care less. The thing is, I find it funny how this guy seems to think Brookside is better than Western. On street view it might look nice, in person, it's a pretty small stretch of semi dense development and that's it. Then he flat out lies and says I missed Brady and Blue Dome, which those districts are garbage as well aside from a couple nice venues.

You want me to go in depth on Tulsa, I will tomorrow, even though I already have and no one was able to say anything or " chose not to."

[ZYX2]

No one cares? Well, I somehow disagree with that. I have landarchepoke who is going out of his/her way to come up with insignificant districts, some of which are ghetto af, and for whatever reason is trying to say I never visit Tulsa, which is fine. I don't have to prove myself. People don't want to believe me, I could care less. The thing is, I find it funny how this guy seems to think Brookside is better than Western. On street view it might look nice, in person, it's a pretty small stretch of semi dense development and that's it. Then he flat out lies and says I missed Brady and Blue Dome, which those districts are garbage as well aside from a couple nice venues.

You want me to go in depth on Tulsa, I will tomorrow, even though I already have and no one was able to say anything or " chose not to."

I don't understand the personal thing you have against Tulsa. And that's what it is, some kind of personal bias against the city. It isn't rooted in fact. If you think that the Brady, Brookside and Cherry Street districts suck, then that's your opinion, but it isn't reality, especially in comparison to OKC.

The lack of disrespect you have for other people is incredible. Conduct yourself respectfully and others might consider what you have to say.

[Urbanized]

Well, I'm the one he was attempting to argue with regarding Brookside, and I just want to be on the record that I really like Brookside. I'll also stipulate that for the short stretch that is primary Brookside, it IS better than Western. He's just completely missing my point, probably because he's wearing his Tulsey glasses.

My point is that if you are willing to look at the much longer stretch of developed Western as an aggregate, it's pretty comparable from an amenities standpoint. In either place you'll have to use a car to get from one location to the next, so what does it really matter? Frankly, because of this sprawl Western has more longterm potential, due to much greater infill opportunities. But no question, Brookside currently (and for decades) enjoys much more development and sense of place if you look at a compact area.

That said, none of it is really walkable in the urbanist sense, and the idea that it has a "street wall," as mentioned in a previous post in the Trader Joe's thread, is laughable. At best it is a really great suburban-type strip. Sometimes people talk about it in reverent tones like it's a great urban district, and that is a MASSIVE stretch.

[bchris02]

What I personally dislike about Tulsa is the fact that people there continually assert its superiority above OKC. That has given me a strong distaste for the place. I will concede that Tulsa is ahead of OKC in a lot of ways. Their greater urban core is a good deal ahead and more developed (though actual downtown OKC is ahead of actual downtown Tulsa). Their Gathering Place park looks like it will blow OKC's Central Park out of the water. Tulsa has done a better job in some areas of placemaking and beautification than OKC has. Of course, Tulsa completely dominates in terms of live music and concerts. They have the retail edge as well at all levels from high-end down to grocery stores. Tulsa already has by far the best museums in the state and it will be even better if they get the pop culture museum. Tulsa's casino-resorts make the ones in the OKC area look tiny.

What Tulsa does NOT have is an NBA team. What they are NOT is a true big league city like Memphis, Jacksonville, Austin, or Charlotte despite the fact they think they are. Tulsa still compares pretty unfavorably to those major cities in other states. When Tulsans try to say they are the Dallas of Oklahoma its difficult to take them seriously. They also are NOT significantly more sophisticated and cosmopolitan than OKC is despite what they think. It's important for OKC to not use Tulsa as its measuring stick of what a great mid-sized city should be because it falls very short.

As for the future, their growth and proposed projects are on a level much lower than what OKC has been experiencing. Providing the bottom doesn't fall out of the local economy, in 5-10 years OKC will be in a league above Tulsa.

[Swake]

What I personally dislike about Tulsa is the fact that people there continually assert its superiority above OKC. That has given me a strong distaste for the place. I will concede that Tulsa is ahead of OKC in a lot of ways. Their greater urban core is a good deal ahead and more developed (though actual downtown OKC is ahead of actual downtown Tulsa). Their Gathering Place park looks like it will blow OKC's Central Park out of the water. Tulsa has done a better job in some areas of placemaking and beautification than OKC has. Of course, Tulsa completely dominates in terms of live music and concerts. They have the retail edge as well at all levels from high-end down to grocery stores. Tulsa already has by far the best museums in the state and it will be even better if they get the pop culture museum. Tulsa's casino-resorts make the ones in the OKC area look tiny.

What Tulsa does NOT have is an NBA team. What they are NOT is a true big league city like Memphis, Jacksonville, Austin, or Charlotte despite the fact they think they are. Tulsa still compares pretty unfavorably to those major cities in other states. When Tulsans try to say they are the Dallas of Oklahoma its difficult to take them seriously. They also are NOT significantly more sophisticated and cosmopolitan than OKC is despite what they think. It's important for OKC to not use Tulsa as its measuring stick of what a great mid-sized city should be because it falls very short.

As for the future, their growth and proposed projects are on a level much lower than what OKC has been experiencing. Providing the bottom doesn't fall out of the local economy, in 5-10 years OKC will be in a league above Tulsa.

Why does it bother you so much that someone that has chosen to live in another city thinks that city may be superior in ways to another city that you have chosen to live in? Isn't that part of the way you decide where to live? Why is that bad or threatening? I would kind of assume that nearly all or at least most people that have chosen to live in Oklahoma City feel they have made the right choice and that for them it's the better city. Talk about inferiority complex.

[Swake]

Well, I'm the one he was attempting to argue with regarding Brookside, and I just want to be on the record that I really like Brookside. I'll also stipulate that for the short stretch that is primary Brookside, it IS better than Western. He's just completely missing my point, probably because he's wearing his Tulsey glasses.

My point is that if you are willing to look at the much longer stretch of developed Western as an aggregate, it's pretty comparable from an amenities standpoint. In either place you'll have to use a car to get from one location to the next, so what does it really matter? Frankly, because of this sprawl Western has more longterm potential, due to much greater infill opportunities. But no question, Brookside currently (and for decades) enjoys much more development and sense of place if you look at a compact area.

That said, none of it is really walkable in the urbanist sense, and the idea that it has a "street wall," as mentioned in a previous post in the Trader Joe's thread, is laughable. At best it is a really great suburban-type strip. Sometimes people talk about it in reverent tones like it's a great urban district, and that is a MASSIVE stretch.

Then why not look at a longer stretch of Peoria for the Brookside District? You want to consider three miles of Western Ave to three blocks of Peoria, but most people actually consider Brookside to extend from 31st all the way to I-44, the 33rd to 36th section is just the core of the area.

[Urbanized]

Honestly, I know very few OKC folks who dislike Tulsa. Personally I love spending time there. I have lots of friends there, favorite haunts, etc.. In a lot of ways it feels like part of the same community in which I live.

I think if anything OKC residents are puzzled and irritated by the negative attitude many Tulsans have toward OKC. But that is an attitude that comes from many decades of ingrained cultural arrogance, which was sometimes even deserved. I think many Tulsans are getting past that now and are recognizing that OKC has great momentum and some advantages here and there, just as Tulsa does.

[Rover]

Part of Tulsa's problem is that people there have long felt that they have already arrived and are defensive when others think they have a ways to go. And, after years of feeling superior to OKC they are particularly defensive when compared. Tulsa has under achieved for decades now and only recently have allowed themselves to admit they need to step up their game. Places like Brookside are quaint, but not exactly a leader in cool urban. It has some cool little bookstores and restaurants, but also lots of surface parking, stretches of neglect and tiredness. Hopefully, TJs, the park and some other things will help it actually become as cool as Tulsans think it already is.

[bchris02]

Why does it bother you so much that someone that has chosen to live in another city thinks that city may be superior in ways to another city that you have chosen to live in? Isn't that part of the way you decide where to live? Why is that bad or threatening? I would kind of assume that nearly all or at least most people that have chosen to live in Oklahoma City feel they have made the right choice and that for them it's the better city. Talk about inferiority complex.

It's the old saying "Tulsa class...OKC trash." I get tired of hearing how much better Tulsa is all the time. Even people living in OKC who are from Tulsa (there are more and more all the time) feel the need to point out that Tulsa is better in casual conversation. Urbanized is correct in that most people in OKC have a positive impression of Tulsa. Many take regular trips up there for shopping, nightlife, parks, live music, the casinos, etc. Why then do people in Tulsa have to run down OKC as a backwards, uncultured cowtown? Having read many of your posts on City-Data Swake, I know you are guilty of that probably more than anyone.

[Urbanized]

Then why not look at a longer stretch of Peoria for the Brookside District? You want to consider three miles of Western Ave to three blocks of Peoria, but most people actually consider Brookside to extend from 31st all the way to I-44, the 33rd to 36th section is just the core of the area.

OMG, when did I ever say 3 blocks? Or that Western was better? If you're confining it to 3 blocks that must mean that YOU think that's the only part worth talking about. I even said that I would stipulate that Brookside is currently much better-developed. My only point was to say that there were reasonable comparisons to be made, though Western was much more sprawled out.

Here, let me just admit that Brookside is one of the coolest districts in America. Dramatically urban, brimming with culture. Best street wall this side of Manhattan. Every city should be jealous and use it as the new standard for urban development. On its best day Western is a weak (and failed) attempt at imitation, and will never, EVER reach the apex of cool upon which Brookside rests. There...have you and the other guy recovered from your butthurt yet? Jesus.

Honestly, it's a nice little old-city suburban-style commercial strip, near some other delightful stuff. It's worth going to, and worth being happy to have, but still could use some work. Good grief.

[Urbanized]

By the way, the type of work that I'm referring to is the type that will hopefully soon be done on Western Avenue, as the City of OKC just accepted a streetscape plan from the OU Institute for Quality Communities. Should give Western a major shot in the arm, and I would expect to see more development quickly follow, as it did streetscapes in places like Automobile Alley and Plaza District. Hopefully one day Western will be 10% as amazing as Brookside.

http://iqc.ou.edu/project/western

[LandArchPoke]

Honestly I think the negative attitude Tulsans have is in most of your heads. You've all told yourselves that for so long you believe it. I have not said one negative thing about OKC. Honestly to me the cities are so different it's hard to compare them. We both have similar neighborhoods (Western - Brookside) but they really aren't anything alike. I just simply compared and showed facts, everyone else seems to just spout off and say it's "fact" "so in so is better than so and so". It's not a fact, it's an opinion. Brookside is denser than Western, that's a fact. Does that mean you like Brookside better? No, you don't have to. Western has a different charm to it, as most of it is 2 lanes and it has the pockets of retail. Brookside is more commercialized, and outside of that denser area from 41st to 31st, it's rather suburban and ordinary arterial street. I happen to have a fondness for Brookside because I did grow up in Tulsa, and it was really my escape from the suburbs. My friends and I would always go to the coffee houses and stroll the different retailers then walk over to Riverparks in my high school years (this was back in the day when the CBD was in fact dead, as Spaghetti Warehouse was pretty much it in the Brady). This was again started by posters on here that instead of being excited a new retailer is entering the State, started bemoaning themselves. Wake up and realize there is no attitude from the other side of the turnpike and be happy about where you live.

I actually love OKC, and the fact when you look at both cities they complement each other very well. I love everything that is going on in the Midtown - AA Alley area. I happen to frequent the food truck park as well as Elemental Coffee (one of my favorite coffee places outside of Foolish Things in Tulsa). You all should spend more time talking about how amazing the State of Oklahoma is with Tulsa and OKC's neighborhoods. How many state's when you put up both OKC/Tulsa against has as many cool things? If we can ever get the state on the same page we could do a lot of great things.

Here are a few things I think makes OKC great...

1. Your mayor. Hands done he has done a great job, and he's really helped change a lot of misnomers about OKC nationally.
2. Bricktown was really were the downtown renaissance in the State started. It does a great job of bring in tourism to the city as well.
3. NBA team because it has in a media standpoint brought a lot of attention to the city.
4. Universities, with UCO, OCU, OU all in the metro area OKC see in influx of young professionals that many cities can only dream they had.

There’s more, but I’m not going to continue to list them off. Get the point? Be proud of your city, and do it in a positive way. Doing it negatively and trying to tell every other city how much they suck just makes you look like you have the complex. There’s probably a reason way a Tulsan has given you attitude (if they in fact have), because I would imagine you told them something about how their city sucks which no one enjoys.

[LandArchPoke]

OMG, when did I ever say 3 blocks? Or that Western was better? If you're confining it to 3 blocks that must mean that YOU think that's the only part worth talking about. I even said that I would stipulate that Brookside is currently much better-developed. My only point was to say that there were reasonable comparisons to be made, though Western was much more sprawled out.

Here, let me just admit that Brookside is one of the coolest districts in America. Dramatically urban, brimming with culture. Best street wall this side of Manhattan. Every city should be jealous and use it as the new standard for urban development. On its best day Western is a weak (and failed) attempt at imitation, and will never, EVER reach the apex of cool upon which Brookside rests. There...have you and the other guy recovered from your butthurt yet? Jesus.

Honestly, it's a nice little old-city suburban-style commercial strip, near some other delightful stuff. It's worth going to, and worth being happy to have, but still could use some work. Good grief.

Here are a few quotes from you. By the way, you were the one who out of the blue started trashing Brookside. As always, it's someone on here that starts bashing Tulsa and then someone try's to say come back to reality and then everyone goes well Tulsa's just snobby.

"If Western's amenities were more compact and not stretched 36th to Wilshire it would frankly be superior. They're both good places as far as strips are concerned, but let's not get carried away with the Brookside platitudes."

- If you took Brookside from I-44 and 37th and condensed them in a more walk-able format, you can say the same thing. You'd triple the size of that small urban section. If you took OKC and condensed everything, the city would be as walk-able as Portland... see how that doesn't make an argument?

"But that doesn't disagree with the point I made. Western has similar (and in some cases superior) amenities"

- This is when I compared the two densest areas. I was just wondering where the superior amenities were? If you like the more cozy feeling of Western vs. Brookside, fine. That's something based in reality, and is your opinion. See?

"Brookside certainly isn't dense/walkable in an urbanist sense"

If we are judging everything by this, then the entire State of Oklahoma is a wasteland compared to a true urban experience. Let's come back to reality, and admit that Brookside (for Oklahoma/Texas standards of urban) is very walk-able. Compared to NY, DC, Chicago, San Fran? Yeah no it's not, but nothing here is.

[bombermwc]

I would agree that OKC folks are tainted by the view Tulsans had for years about OKC. In many ways, OKC earned that label. We were begging on the side of the road for a while and it if weren't for MAPs, we'd be in just as bad of a place now. OKC was able to make such a strong recovery because of how far we had fallen. OKC leapfrogged Tulsa, but T-Town did earn itself a reputation over its life for income, which is still good. Oil treated Tulsa well, as it has more recently for OKC. OKC died by oil, and we live by it now. We're one bust away from going back into recession. Don't, for a second, think our economy has diversified enough to absorb that. Would it be like the 80's again, no. Regulations have corrected a lot of what happened then AFTER the bust (savings and loan). When you don't have far to fall, up is the only way you can go, which is what OKC did. Tulsa hadn't fallen so hard and so the feeling that something has to be done, just never surfaced. Population growth isn't as high in Tulsa, but it is still growing in the metro there.

Tulsa still has some nice aspects to it, just like any other town. OKC has grown by leaps and bounds over the last 20 years on so many fronts. Tulsa has made some strides, but continues to fight with itself on the big projects (which happen to be the ones that attract attention). Being those couple hundred thousand people smaller also changes markets. Tulsa has been able to maintain the lead in chain store development (whoopee for them...sarcasm) and mostly in the upper scale areas. To be honest, with the limited markets they serve, I don't really care. But lets not for a minute act like it fell off the face of the planet. It's still an economic strong point and Oklahoma's numbers MUST Include Tulsa as part of the big picture. OKC tends to think of itself as the entire state now, and that's not really true either. It's become the cultural/population/economic capital it should be. But lets not make up some story that Tulsa all of a sudden sucks either. It's far more similar to OKC than OKC would care to admit...even if I would hate living there.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't understand the personal thing you have against Tulsa. And that's what it is, some kind of personal bias against the city. It isn't rooted in fact. If you think that the Brady, Brookside and Cherry Street districts suck, then that's your opinion, but it isn't reality, especially in comparison to OKC.

The lack of disrespect you have for other people is incredible. Conduct yourself respectfully and others might consider what you have to say.

It's incredible meaning it can't be credited and as such isn't true, eh?

If you want to just leave it at it being my opinion, I am more than happy to do so. I am not going to conform to your ideal conversation of what you would consider respectful. I am stating it as nice as I can. I DO NOT LIKE TULSA. I have been to quite a few cities in my life and that will only continue and Tulsa has to be one of the most dull and bland cities I have ever seen. Yes, that is my opinion.

I have stated this before, I have a great aunt that lives in Tulsa and she loves it. Absolutely loves it. She moved there from L.A. after coming from Iran. She couldn't be happier. That's awesome. If Tulsa is her niche, then more power to her. I go there multiple times a month to help her our--as I said she is very old--and if some random poster who just joined doesn't believe me, then that is his/her problem.

Tulsa has some nice areas such as Cherry St. and Utica Square and they're fine for what they are. I suppose it might be the fact that after living in Dallas, and you have a city like Tulsa that is very run down for the most part, yet they still act like Dallas, it is a turn off. Dallas can act the way Dallas does because it's an amazing city with a lot to offer.

Anyways, this will play out the same way it always does: I'll say how much I hate Tulsa, some other poster will be "rationality master" followed by a series of other posters discussing how Tulsa is just fine and what is going on there and blah blah blah... happened a few times before and it'll happen again. Bring up Tulsa, and I'm going to give my 2 cents about it. Don't like it? I don't know what to tell you.

[Bellaboo]

One thing that I don't like about Tulsa is that they dump their sewage into the Arkansas River. Even though treated, it still dirties it up to a degree. I have good friends who live in the Tulsa area that make a living from the river, and they complain about it.

[Plutonic Panda]

By the way, the type of work that I'm referring to is the type that will hopefully soon be done on Western Avenue, as the City of OKC just accepted a streetscape plan from the OU Institute for Quality Communities. Should give Western a major shot in the arm, and I would expect to see more development quickly follow, as it did streetscapes in places like Automobile Alley and Plaza District. Hopefully one day Western will be 10% as amazing as Brookside.

http://iqc.ou.edu/project/western

So how serious is that? That is awesome for that part of Western. I understand they 'accepted it' but does that mean they accepted it as what they eventually want to do for the area or something they funded and is ready to start soon?

[ZYX2]

It's incredible meaning it can't be credited and as such isn't true, eh?

If you want to just leave it at it being my opinion, I am more than happy to do so. I am not going to conform to your ideal conversation of what you would consider respectful. I am stating it as nice as I can. I DO NOT LIKE TULSA. I have been to quite a few cities in my life and that will only continue and Tulsa has to be one of the most dull and bland cities I have ever seen. Yes, that is my opinion.

I have stated this before, I have a great aunt that lives in Tulsa and she loves it. Absolutely loves it. She moved there from L.A. after coming from Iran. She couldn't be happier. That's awesome. If Tulsa is her niche, then more power to her. I go there multiple times a month to help her our--as I said she is very old--and if some random poster who just joined doesn't believe me, then that is his/her problem.

Tulsa has some nice areas such as Cherry St. and Utica Square and they're fine for what they are. I suppose it might be the fact that after living in Dallas, and you have a city like Tulsa that is very run down for the most part, yet they still act like Dallas, it is a turn off. Dallas can act the way Dallas does because it's an amazing city with a lot to offer.

Anyways, this will play out the same way it always does: I'll say how much I hate Tulsa, some other poster will be "rationality master" followed by a series of other posters discussing how Tulsa is just fine and what is going on there and blah blah blah... happened a few times before and it'll happen again. Bring up Tulsa, and I'm going to give my 2 cents about it. Don't like it? I don't know what to tell you.

You didn't just say that you "don't like" Tulsa. You know what you said and I won't repeat it. I do not care at all whether or not you like Tulsa. What annoys me is that you completely trash the city any chance you get. Do you interact with people like this face to face? Respect matters.

I love living in Tulsa, and know many others who do. I like OKC a lot, too. But it's different than Tulsa. To me, OKC feels more corporate and big time. Tulsa feels smaller and more intimate. I like that. If you like OKC better, great. Live there.

[Plutonic Panda]

You didn't just say that you "don't like" Tulsa. You know what you said and I won't repeat it. I do not care at all whether or not you like Tulsa. What annoys me is that you completely trash the city any chance you get. Do you interact with people like this face to face? Respect matters.

I love living in Tulsa, and know many others who do. I like OKC a lot, too. But it's different than Tulsa. To me, OKC feels more corporate and big time. Tulsa feels smaller and more intimate. I like that. If you like OKC better, great. Stop consistently stomping on Tulsa whenever you can.

I tell you what, I'll never talk ill of Tulsa again on here if that will make you happy. I've spoke my peace and know what I know.

Oh, and as for the respect issue, I get told nearly everyday, multiple times a day, people are surprised that I'm so respectful and have as much common courtesy as I do at 20 years old. I'll let that speak for itself. I'm not going to say whether or not I think I'm respectful and refuse to critique myself, but one thing I will say and make it known that words on a screen have no emotional context. That is why trolls are able to make people so mad. That is why sarcasm is so hard to detect. That is why I think humans are starting to become more disconnected than we think and there is an illusion that we are becoming more connected. I do not like texting either, but I will text if I have to. So comparing how respectful you think I am because of my wording how I feel with a particular city on a talk forum is strange, but whatevs. If you felt I was rude to you, then I apologize as that was not my intention. There are a very select group of posters on here(less than 5 or so) who I could care less about and question their true intentions, and you are not one of them, so again, sorry if I came off as rude.

[ZYX2]

I don't care if you have criticisms. I just expect to be able to have a civil conversation.

And I understand that tone is difficult to convey through text. It didn't seem to me as though you were being sarcastic. I guess I misread your posts.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I've decided that they both suck...

[Urbanized]

Geez. Again, nothing I said was not based in fact, and certainly I wasn't trashing Brookside. I only said that Brookside and Western were more comparable than Tulsans would like to admit, and that people sometimes assign value to Brookside that isn't really reality-based. It's a great place, and certainly one of the best places in Oklahoma. But - just like Western - it is just a nice commercial strip, and there is still much room for improvement. The fact that you equate my pretty mild (and still mostly complimentary) statements to the "trashing" of Brookside is pretty telling.

Here are a few quotes from you. By the way, you were the one who out of the blue started trashing Brookside. As always, it's someone on here that starts bashing Tulsa and then someone try's to say come back to reality and then everyone goes well Tulsa's just snobby.

"If Western's amenities were more compact and not stretched 36th to Wilshire it would frankly be superior. They're both good places as far as strips are concerned, but let's not get carried away with the Brookside platitudes."

Again, either way it is an unfair comparison. If you look at ANY 3 blocks of Western, Brookside is clearly superior. But if you look at several miles of Western it clearly does have more TOTAL amenities. That's just math. But it's not fair to either place to do an apples-to-apples comparison. My point stands that if you squashed all of Western into the area that comprises what most people think of as Brookside, there is more stuff. Doesn't make Western better; just different.

- If you took Brookside from I-44 and 37th and condensed them in a more walk-able format, you can say the same thing. You'd triple the size of that small urban section. If you took OKC and condensed everything, the city would be as walk-able as Portland... see how that doesn't make an argument?

I don't think you understand the definition of walkable, from a planning/urbanist standpoint. Both Brookside and Western are bad examples of walkability. Blue Dome, Greenwood, Brady, others? FAR more walkable.

"But that doesn't disagree with the point I made. Western has similar (and in some cases superior) amenities"

And in many cases Brookside has superior amenities. The two are not mutually exclusive. Sorry if the idea that Western might actually have a few things here and there that Brookside might also like to have gave you such butthurt.

- This is when I compared the two densest areas. I was just wondering where the superior amenities were? If you like the more cozy feeling of Western vs. Brookside, fine. That's something based in reality, and is your opinion. See?

Not really looking to get into a bunch of scorekeeping (though it seems that you are), but the area around Classen Curve/Triangle/NHP/CHK certainly holds more long-term promise than anything in Brookside. Not really my scene up there, but when complete it should be about like taking Utica Square and relocating it to Brookside. Western has some great little pockets, but again, sprawled.

"Brookside certainly isn't dense/walkable in an urbanist sense"

If we are judging everything by this, then the entire State of Oklahoma is a wasteland compared to a true urban experience. Let's come back to reality, and admit that Brookside (for Oklahoma/Texas standards of urban) is very walk-able. Compared to NY, DC, Chicago, San Fran? Yeah no it's not, but nothing here is.

Again, even OKC and TULSA have areas that are far more walkable. Walkability isn't a concept limited to major cities. In fact, some of the best walkability in the U.S. can be found in small towns. You might try reading "Walkable City" by Jeff Speck, to develop a better understanding of what the term means in a planning/urbanist sense.

At the end of the day, both places are suburban commercial strips. They both look, act and feel that way, regardless of the fact that one enjoys more density. Lots of other places in the region and country are comparable...Lower Greenville in Dallas for instance. If you can accept the fact that it's just an extra nice, old-city suburban commercial strip, there is no reason that you can't enjoy the fact that Brookside is a great place nevertheless. And I agree that it is.

[HOT ROD]

guys, I think PluPan is being a little facetious. Don't read too much into his 'stated' hatred of Tulsa. ...

[Swake]

One thing that I don't like about Tulsa is that they dump their sewage into the Arkansas River. Even though treated, it still dirties it up to a degree. I have good friends who live in the Tulsa area that make a living from the river, and they complain about it.

This is inane. What exactly do you think Oklahoma City does with it's treated water? Or any city?