OKC Vs. Tulsa

[Pete]

I think having a single downtown compilation thread would be good, located in the Tulsa subforum. It's better that way because it's a bunch of mostly smaller projects that don't need their own threads. Maybe a midtown development thread as well since there is quite a bit happening there too. The big projects like Gathering Place and the River Spirit tower probably deserve their own threads. Swake knows a lot more than I do about Tulsa development (he lives there, I don't) and could start it and update it if he wants. I could add things periodically as I am in Tulsa every few months for work.

If you and Swake (and any other responsible parties) would like to maintain it, I can create a wiki function in the Tulsa forum where you can create summary articles then continually edit them.

Otherwise, the thread format gets very drawn out with info scattered everywhere.

Then, we could do housing, hotel and other summaries similar for what we do for the OKC urban core.


Otherwise, the message board format makes it too difficult. Good for discussion but not content. It's why I added with wiki function which has gone pretty much unnoticed (after a while) but has gone miles towards keeping info organized.

[BG918]

Could the Chickasaw Tribe and all they money that have possibly do something like this near the DT area? They could even build a mega resort with perhaps indoor skiing! I mentioned this on another thread but they have huge bucks and could make this happen. Imagine a huge resort and hotel with indoor skiing? It could look something like this.

https://www.google.com/search?q=indo...l%3B1200%3B900

A brand new flagship Riverwind on the south banks of the Canadian River next to I-35 could be possible if the Chickasaws wanted to build a new casino resort to draw from the OKC metro and compete with the Creek and Cherokee flagships in Tulsa. Maybe they could figure out a way to keep water in it which is the same dilemma the Creeks are facing with the Arkansas River.

[soondoc]

How come they have their name on the Bricktown Ballpark.

[bchris02]

A brand new flagship Riverwind on the south banks of the Canadian River next to I-35 could be possible if the Chickasaws wanted to build a new casino resort to draw from the OKC metro and compete with the Creek and Cherokee flagships in Tulsa. Maybe they could figure out a way to keep water in it which is the same dilemma the Creeks are facing with the Arkansas River.

I would love to see this.

I don't particularly support a downtown Casino, but would really like to see the metro have a flagship casino/resort that can compete with the Winstar or the ones in Tulsa.

[adaniel]

How come they have their name on the Bricktown Ballpark.

Completely different scenario.

They have simply given their money as a sponsorship deal with the Ballpark.

To operate any sort of casino or other tribal owned enterprise, they must be on tribal owned land. There is no tribal owned land of any sort in OKC proper, or the vast majority of Oklahoma and Cleveland County for that matter.

[Swake]

Completely different scenario.

They have simply given their money as a sponsorship deal with the Ballpark.

To operate any sort of casino or other tribal owned enterprise, they must be on tribal owned land. There is no tribal owned land of any sort in OKC proper, or the vast majority of Oklahoma and Cleveland County for that matter.

Not just tribal owned land. A tribe can own land outside of their national boundaries or even inside but not in trust. But then that land has no special status and all state and local laws apply. The Chickasaw tribe owns Remington Park but Remington is still not an Indian Gaming site, all state laws regarding gambling apply there. The tribe is simply the owner.

A tribal casino has to on BIA reserved land and reserved land has to be within the tribes national boundaries. A tribe can apply to change those, but it’s highly unlikely to succeed. The tribe would have to show a strong historical link to the land to even make the application. Oklahoma City is not inside of any tribe national boundaries. Maybe the Kiowa or Wichita tribes could show such a link. Probably no other tribes could.

[HOT ROD]

Great information everyone!

[Plutonic Panda]

Well Panda, if you actually read what I've said... you'll see in fact see I haven't left Chisholm Creek out. I even said I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to get their act together before Glimcher and land a Trader Joe's there.

I'd love to see your list. Post it an a separate thread though. Brookside is the only place that boasts "high-end" retail huh? Guess Utica Square doesn't count right?

If your standards are that high after living in almighty Dallas... then you'd think everything in Oklahoma sucks including Western and Chisholm Creek. Addison Circle and Legacy Park are two examples that are considerably nicer and more urban than Chisholm Creek will be.

and if you read my post, you would see that I specifically stated "one of" which refers to their being a few places around Tulsa.

Yes, after coming from a city like Dallas that higher standards than a city like Tulsa, which is full of itself and quite frankly one of the sh!ttiest, most depressing cities I've ever been to, I would say I have that right to have higher standards that what Tulsa offers.

With Film Row, Core To Shore, Nichols Hills Plaza area(Glimcher, Classen Curve), Penn Square(which is a ton better than Woodland Hills yet still an average mall), Midtown, Deep Deuce, a CBD that actually has some life, not great, but its something compared to Tulsa which pretty much dies unless there's a concert at the glorified BOK Center, Auto Alley, Boathouse Row, Capitol Hill, Quail Springs area, Campus Corner in Norman, the up and coming downtown Edmond/UCO area, OUHSC, Adventure District, NW 23rd, up and coming east side, Bricktown, Paseo, Stockyards, Plaza District, Sosa, and eventually Linwood BLVD. connecting with May and the area around the fairgrounds. There is no comparison.

Tulsa has what? Brookside, Blue Dome, Cherry St. Brady District, CBD, Utica Square... I'm missing a couple I think.

Yeah, I'd consider Tulsa a competitor to OKC right now. At current trends and assuming realistically increased growth for both cities, 5 years the debate is over and OKC will be almost unrecognizable, 10 years the city is unrecognizable and we'll be widening I-44 to six lanes to handle all of the people coming from Tulsa for a weekend getaway... 20 years? Well, comparing OKC to Tulsa would be like comparing OKC to Houston.

Give me a break. Tulsa sucks.

BTW, OKC is far from a perfect city. There is still tons of blight that needs to be addressed, but it is changing and I suspect the current change will induce even faster change in the future. Tulsa has some nice projects going on, but they are nowhere near the vast size and scope of what is occurring here.

[bchris02]

I hope you are right, PluPan. I want to play devil's advocate here though. One thing that always comes up in these OKC vs Tulsa debates is where OKC will be compared to Tulsa in five or ten years. Right now, in 2014, the one thing that clearly sets OKC ahead of Tulsa is having an NBA team. Outside of that, its much more evenly matched and Tulsa is still ahead in a few key areas.

Once we see the following in place.

-Current commercial and residential development proposals in place
-Film Row, Capitol Hill, and the Wheeler District developed
-Infill to critical mass in Midtown
-Quality grocery store in the urban core of OKC
-Improved retail scene
-MAPS3 projects complete including streetcar and convention center

THEN it will be indisputable to say that OKC a tier above Tulsa. It will be interesting to revisit this debate in 2020 to see how things played out.

[Motley]

Do you think Tulsa (or Dallas) would have the reservations and debates that are going on about Preftakes and Clayco or would they embrace them without regard to the buildings they are replacing?

[Plutonic Panda]

Do you think Tulsa (or Dallas) would have the reservations and debates that are going on about Preftakes and Clayco or would they embrace them without regard to the buildings they are replacing?

It wouldn't suprise me. I'm not sure about Tulsa, but Dallas isn't exactly the most conservative city out here in terms of saving old buildings.

[Jake]

Considering Tulsa is the "Parking Lot Capital of America", it would not surprise me at all.

[Motley]

I believe the Dallas newspaper recently had an article about the loss of old buildings in downtown. And not to pile on Tulsa too much, but I can imagine they would be hyped about the projects, if only to rub in OKC's face.

[LandArchPoke]

The comments here crack me up. They are not objective what so ever.

Motley, people it Tulsa are actually happy for Oklahoma City, but at the same time wishing they could somehow complete these projects in a more urban manner. No matter what you all think.. what is good for one city is good for the other. The majority of Tulsan on TulsaNow and what I've spoke to in person about these developments are glad nothing like this is happening in our downtown. We have so far done a great job at not demoing the building stock we have left for new development. If we could just run Kanbar out of Tulsa the downtown office market would take off, that group is a mess so be thankful you don't have anyone like that involved in Downtown OKC.

Panda, you are missing several areas. I thought you come to Tulsa all the time? And know exactly how ****ty it is? If you really do (as I suspect you don't) then you could speak to your prejudice against Tulsa in a more tactful and believable way, instead of coming off insecure and jealous. It's just a Trader Joe's - the sky isn't falling.

To say the CBD has no life is a joke. When's the last time you were there again (tell the truth)? Boston Avenue has a presence unlike any other in the state. There has been so many new retailers in the CBD in the last year that they had to cancel the annual "pop-up shops" during Christmas because there is no retail space left. You have the Blue Dome, East Village, Brady Arts District, and the SOBO areas all in the downtown core that are full of all types of retail. There is also approximately 1,000 housing units that will be under construction and complete by the end of 2016. There's also several out of state developers circling the downtown area looking to add 200-400 units each, so that number could easily increase to closer to 2,000 if any can acquire the land needed.

Tulsa has a really interesting developing neighborhood called the Pearl District just outside of the downtown core. Cherry Street is also slowing running over, and you're seeing interest grow on 15th Street east of the Broken Arrow Expressway. Brookside, the main section of Cherry Street, and Utica Square are obviously the well established urban areas outside of downtown. Woodland Hills still has the state's nicest and largest Dillard's and nicest Macy's. Woodland Hills and Penn Square are both basically the same square feet, but Penn Square does have high sales per square foot. I could honestly care less about mall's though, as I rarely visit them and if I go I generally go to a department store (Macys, Dillards, Von Maur) and leave as fast as I can. Who brags about malls anyways? No one. Because they are obsolete and a dying segment of American real estate.

I'd also rather spend that money you think will be spent to widen I-44 to 6 lanes on high speed rail between the cities. If you really think that in 20 years comparing OKC and Tulsa will be like comparing OKC and Houston now... well I'd love to have whatever you are smoking because it must be very strong.

[Swake]

I wouldn't get too high on new developments that haven't stated in either city. The oil bubble has seemingly burst and the Saudi's are intended on killing new exploration in the US to preserve their own market share. With the added ancillary benefit of hurting Syria, Iran and Russia.

[Plutonic Panda]

The comments here crack me up. They are not objective what so ever.

Motley, people it Tulsa are actually happy for Oklahoma City, but at the same time wishing they could somehow complete these projects in a more urban manner. No matter what you all think.. what is good for one city is good for the other. The majority of Tulsan on TulsaNow and what I've spoke to in person about these developments are glad nothing like this is happening in our downtown. We have so far done a great job at not demoing the building stock we have left for new development. If we could just run Kanbar out of Tulsa the downtown office market would take off, that group is a mess so be thankful you don't have anyone like that involved in Downtown OKC.

Panda, you are missing several areas. I thought you come to Tulsa all the time? And know exactly how ****ty it is? If you really do (as I suspect you don't) then you could speak to your prejudice against Tulsa in a more tactful and believable way, instead of coming off insecure and jealous. It's just a Trader Joe's - the sky isn't falling.

To say the CBD has no life is a joke. When's the last time you were there again (tell the truth)? Boston Avenue has a presence unlike any other in the state. There has been so many new retailers in the CBD in the last year that they had to cancel the annual "pop-up shops" during Christmas because there is no retail space left. You have the Blue Dome, East Village, Brady Arts District, and the SOBO areas all in the downtown core that are full of all types of retail. There is also approximately 1,000 housing units that will be under construction and complete by the end of 2016. There's also several out of state developers circling the downtown area looking to add 200-400 units each, so that number could easily increase to closer to 2,000 if any can acquire the land needed.

Tulsa has a really interesting developing neighborhood called the Pearl District just outside of the downtown core. Cherry Street is also slowing running over, and you're seeing interest grow on 15th Street east of the Broken Arrow Expressway. Brookside, the main section of Cherry Street, and Utica Square are obviously the well established urban areas outside of downtown. Woodland Hills still has the state's nicest and largest Dillard's and nicest Macy's. Woodland Hills and Penn Square are both basically the same square feet, but Penn Square does have high sales per square foot. I could honestly care less about mall's though, as I rarely visit them and if I go I generally go to a department store (Macys, Dillards, Von Maur) and leave as fast as I can. Who brags about malls anyways? No one. Because they are obsolete and a dying segment of American real estate.

I'd also rather spend that money you think will be spent to widen I-44 to 6 lanes on high speed rail between the cities. If you really think that in 20 years comparing OKC and Tulsa will be like comparing OKC and Houston now... well I'd love to have whatever you are smoking because it must be very strong.

Tulsa sucks. I go there about 2-3 times a month. I hate it and can't wait to leave when I'm there.

[Plutonic Panda]

Oh, I forgot the Pearl District... knew I forgot one. Oh, and it sucks ass.

[Swake]

Oh, I forgot the Pearl District... knew I forgot one. Oh, and it sucks ass.

Come on, if you are going to troll you can do better than that.

[Plutonic Panda]

Come on, if you are going to troll you can do better than that.

Dude, are you seriously saying the Pearl District is a good district? It's almost as if when you're driving, there's a single sign that says beer and that's it. All you really see on Google. It's even worse in person. Not trolling bro, I don't do that. There are very few cities I dislike and Tulsa is one of them.

[Jake]

"My team is better than your team."

[Plutonic Panda]

"My team is better than your team."

Damn straight. If you believe the other team is better than yours, do you think you'd win?

[LandArchPoke]

Come on, if you are going to troll you can do better than that.

Seriously. This is the internet though, so troll on Panda.

Dude, are you seriously saying the Pearl District is a good district? It's almost as if when you're driving, there's a single sign that says beer and that's it. All you really see on Google. It's even worse in person. Not trolling bro, I don't do that. There are very few cities I dislike and Tulsa is one of them.

Forgot one? You missed the Blue Dome, Brady, East Village, SOBO. Here's a few more for you Kendall Whittier, Red Fork, and Route 66.

Feel free to Google Streetview them ... oh I mean "visit them/Tulsa 2-3 times a month"

If you've actually visited the Pearl you would know there is more than a building with a Beer sign. It has one of the states nicer urban parks, nearly 100 townhouses that sell for over $300K, and almost a dozen new retailers at 6th and Peoria with several others in the planning stages.

[Swake]

Damn straight. If you believe the other team is better than yours, do you think you'd win?

I know you are young and have made a number of serious mistakes.

When do you choose to grow up?

[ZYX2]

Damn straight. If you believe the other team is better than yours, do you think you'd win?

Nobody cares how much you hate Tulsa. I don't see what makes Tulsa vastly different from most other mid sized American cities, but perhaps there is something that only you can see that is truly awful about it.

If you have to go on complaining about Tulsa, you should do it in a more intelligent way than simply declaring that everything just "sucks."

[Plutonic Panda]

Seriously. This is the internet though, so troll on Panda.



Forgot one? You missed the Blue Dome, Brady, East Village, SOBO. Here's a few more for you Kendall Whittier, Red Fork, and Route 66.

Feel free to Google Streetview them ... oh I mean "visit them/Tulsa 2-3 times a month"

If you've actually visited the Pearl you would know there is more than a building with a Beer sign. It has one of the states nicer urban parks, nearly 100 townhouses that sell for over $300K, and almost a dozen new retailers at 6th and Peoria with several others in the planning stages.

Yeah, I would hardly consider those real districts, but whatever. In that case, I'll go ahead and list a ton more "districts" tomorrow when I wake up.