OKC Vs. Tulsa

[Plutonic Panda]

Imagine property taxes 3x greater.

I would support that. Higher property taxes in exchange for no income tax.

[Snowman]

Imagine no personal income tax.

Unless what they plan on spending less if that is stopped, which is not happening, the money is coming from somewhere.

[HOT ROD]

And yet, we are getting the streetcar. Under your assumptions, he must not be that much against it. And, I see nothing wrong with someone saying we need to get the best we can afford. If everyone thinks any streetcar system is the same as any other, then fine...I am admitedly not a street car expert (though I have ridden many and can opine that there are significant differences). He wasn't saying ALL streetcars are noisy & ugly, but that we don't want those that are. So, what is so negative about that? I have seen sleek, quiet, comfortable and relatively quick and that's what I hope we get.

Along those lines - He didn't say OKC needs a sleek modern one either. He took a stand, one side, and that was it.

They don't get any quieter than electric pantograph modern streetcar that OKC has proposed all along. Anybody suspect he wanted a noisy, smoky, diesel or natural gas powered one, perhaps?

OKC has to be very careful with allowing one person to guide decisions. Nichols is an OKC and downtown champion, but the best leaders should listen to their constituents or at least hire a group of experts that enhance your decisions and often may vote against you. This would benefit Nichols tremendously in his desired effort to attract talent to downtown and his company.

[BG918]

The riverside district (I think that is what it is called at 36th and Peoria). Very small urban stretch -- tons of people out walking around, small shops and crowded sidewalk patios.

That is Brookside, the commercial corridor between 31st and 41st on Peoria with the main walkable portion from 33rd to 36th. Neighborhoods on either side between Riverside and Utica are also part of Brookside, mostly smaller homes from the 40's and 50's though the area east of Peoria has bigger homes and lots of newer infill construction. It will eventually be connected to the new Gathering Place park a half mile to the west along the river via a jogging/biking trail along Crow Creek which is the northern limit of the commercial district. Brookside is very similar to Western Ave around 43rd in OKC though with more restaurants and retail.

Speaking of the difference between districts in the two cities Tulsa's Brady (north side of downtown) looks similar to Bricktown with the warehouses and ballpark but is completely different being more of an arts & music district. Blue Dome (east downtown between 1st and 4th) is similar in many ways to Midtown in OKC and even will have some of the same establishments (McNellies, Dust Bowl, Fassler Hall) and both have the biggest future potential for more nightlife and urban residential. Cherry Street (15th between Peoria and Utica) is like Uptown/NW 23rd though with a 15 year head start on gentrification.

South Boston (area around 18th & Boston) and the Pearl (6th & Peoria) share similarities with the Plaza district. The area east of Blue Dome around 3rd & Kenosha is like Film Row, an area with good bones but not a lot of new development yet.

[bchris02]

BG918, you seem to know Tulsa better than a lot of people on this board. Is the fact of the matter than Tulsa got a head start on revitalizing its urban districts? If so, why is that being that both cities suffered from the same early 1980s oil crash? How did Tulsa avoid falling into the dire situation OKC found itself in by 1990? What districts would you say that OKC currently has that are ahead of their Tulsa equivalent?

[Rover]

Tulsa had a strong base of civic minded entrepreneurs who gave lots of money and provided pretty unified direction for a very long time. But their strength of that became their weakness. They still don't have the renaissance of leadership that OKC has experienced, but seem to be getting there. Tulsa's politics are sometimes crippling. The old guard doesn't give up easily.

[Bellaboo]

BG918, you seem to know Tulsa better than a lot of people on this board. Is the fact of the matter than Tulsa got a head start on revitalizing its urban districts? If so, why is that being that both cities suffered from the same early 1980s oil crash? How did Tulsa avoid falling into the dire situation OKC found itself in by 1990? What districts would you say that OKC currently has that are ahead of their Tulsa equivalent?

Penn Square Bank was in OKC.... that had a lot to do with it being worse than dire.

[Spartan]

This is Tulsa's downtown development picture:
Downtown Tulsa living options grow as 313 units planned in 2014 projects - Tulsa World: Real Estate

About 700 housing units in the next two years. OKC has that in two projects alone.

[BG918]

This is Tulsa's downtown development picture:
Downtown Tulsa living options grow as 313 units planned in 2014 projects - Tulsa World: Real Estate

About 700 housing units in the next two years. OKC has that in two projects alone.

From NYT article last week:

Indeed, more than 600 downtown apartments are scheduled to open through 2015, according to the Tulsa chamber. Among other projects, seven hotels are also in various stages of planning or development, said Brittany Sawyer, executive director of the Metro Tulsa Hotel and Lodging Association.

How many are planned for OKC? I know there are more largely due to several bigger projects like The Rise and one by St Anthony's. Tulsa doesn't have very many of those in the works as the newer projects tend to be smaller.

In response to Bchris' question, Tulsa has always had a strong midtown area even when downtown was dead. Utica Square and the area around it has always been the nicest part of the city. Brookside and Cherry Street were old streetcar commercial districts that didn't fade away mainly because the neighborhoods around them were strong even in the 80's and 90's, with Cherry Street coming the longest way since that time. Downtown Tulsa really didn't have anything until about 10 years ago and has really come into its own in the past 5 years. Contrast that to OKC that already had things happening in Bricktown by the late 90's and about a 10 year head start on other downtown districts.

[HOT ROD]

I really love to read BG's posts as he gives a lot of detail about Tulsa that doesn't seem to be biased for or against; just appears to be factual. I like it. Also, I can not help but give Tulsa props for their urban design and development. It is truly something that could inspire OKC; and I for one would love to learn more about Tulsa and what they have and have done to keep it.

BG, would you and other Tulsa posters be willing to start a Tulsa oriented thread (something similar to how our Omaha and San Antonio friends have a thread for their cities)? I'd like a central location to hear about Tulsa developments, but even moreso - learn about Tulsa's districts, what are they and where, and how did they start and remain successful.

I honestly LOVE how you contrasted Tulsa's districts vs. OKC and think there could be some momentum gained on both sides if dialog (as objective as possible) could take place. I think the scale of development is and should be larger in OKC, but Tulsa seems to have always done things right more or less and it'd be great to learn what has taken place.

I can say that the times I've been to Tulsa I didn't know where to go and that helped me form an opinion of the city (perhaps placemaking is a problem in Tulsa as it is in OKC?). But hearing about Brookside/Cherry, so on - I wish I knew where for my own personal purposes but from a development prospective would love to hear how they got there.

[ljbab728]

We already have that.

Tulsa & Suburbs

[bchris02]

I don't think Tulsa has anything comparable to Auto Alley or the Paseo. Am I wrong there?

[Swake]

I don't think Tulsa has anything comparable to Auto Alley or the Paseo. Am I wrong there?

I’m not really familiar enough with Auto Alley to tell you what is similar in Tulsa. Not every part of each city has an equivalent in the other.

Tulsa’s arts district is the Brady Arts District. You probably will find more to contrast then compare.
Home | Brady Arts District

[Pete]

How many are planned for OKC? I know there are more largely due to several bigger projects like The Rise and one by St Anthony's. Tulsa doesn't have very many of those in the works as the newer projects tend to be smaller.

Over 1,200 under construction and another 800+ planned, not including the two Clayco towers, which would be another 506 units (253 each).

Downtown Housing Summary - OKCTalk

[bchris02]

When it comes to planned units, there really isn't any comparison. OKC is currently ahead of Tulsa by a longshot.

[Swake]

I really love to read BG's posts as he gives a lot of detail about Tulsa that doesn't seem to be biased for or against; just appears to be factual. I like it. Also, I can not help but give Tulsa props for their urban design and development. It is truly something that could inspire OKC; and I for one would love to learn more about Tulsa and what they have and have done to keep it.

BG, would you and other Tulsa posters be willing to start a Tulsa oriented thread (something similar to how our Omaha and San Antonio friends have a thread for their cities)? I'd like a central location to hear about Tulsa developments, but even moreso - learn about Tulsa's districts, what are they and where, and how did they start and remain successful.

I honestly LOVE how you contrasted Tulsa's districts vs. OKC and think there could be some momentum gained on both sides if dialog (as objective as possible) could take place. I think the scale of development is and should be larger in OKC, but Tulsa seems to have always done things right more or less and it'd be great to learn what has taken place.

I can say that the times I've been to Tulsa I didn't know where to go and that helped me form an opinion of the city (perhaps placemaking is a problem in Tulsa as it is in OKC?). But hearing about Brookside/Cherry, so on - I wish I knew where for my own personal purposes but from a development prospective would love to hear how they got there.

My family has lived in the Brookside area from when it was first developed in the early 1940s and it is just what it always was. My grandparents lived on 36th Street by Utica for 60 years and when they first moved there 36th was a dead end dirt road out in the country. As far back as the 1950s Brookside was a hopping nightlife district known as The Restless Ribbon. It has evolved to become more and more upscale, but these are gradual changes over time. Brookside does become more and more dense and development does creep into the neighborhood, but only slowly. The Brookside Neighborhood Association has always been very strong and fights the commercial district growing into residential areas. The name comes from the area being on Crow Creek which connects the Brookside area to the Arkansas River. The potential development area for The Gathering Place will be along Crow Creek to the west of the Brookside commercial area in the Brookside neighborhood.

Brookside


Cherry Street is a very old “suburban” Tulsa shopping district, one of the first outside downtown. The area which is actually along 15th Street from Peoria Ave to Utica Ave gets its name from the old name for 15th before Tulsa standardized the street naming convention sometime before 1920. The area has always been a shopping area but as part of an effort to improve the area and make it area more cohesive in the late 1970s it was dubbed “Cherry Street”. The new (also very old) Pearl District that is starting to come to life east of downtown along 6th Street and Peoria gets its name the same way, Pearl was the old name for Peoria Ave.

Welcome to Cherry Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma

Tulsa Pearl District | Reinventing the art of city life

[Laramie]

Oklahoma City vs. Tulsa will always we a hot topic. I lived in Tulsa in the late 70s & early 80s. Tulsa was a very clean and beautiful city in comparison to OKC which wouldn't be saying a whole lot about OKC in those decades.

Tulsa slowed down in the late 80's and early 90s; this was a period in which OKC made remarkable improvements. The competitive between both of Oklahoma's largest metropolitan areas is a good thing.

These two communities need to continue with their upswing...

[PhiAlpha]

Over 1,200 under construction and another 800+ planned, not including the two Clayco towers, which would be another 506 units (253 each).

Downtown Housing Summary - OKCTalk

What's the current unit count for everything that has been completed?

Edit: nm, you already updated the housing summary. Should've checked! http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?...Summary&page=2

[BG918]

I don't think Tulsa has anything comparable to Auto Alley or the Paseo. Am I wrong there?

Paseo is unique and OKC is lucky to have such an area. Most of the art galleries in Tulsa are in Brady or Cherry Street.

The closest comparison to Auto Alley is probably Boston Ave between 4th and 6th. Both are growing locally-owned retail corridors. Both also have impressive light displays during the holidays. Downtown retail is an area where both cities need to expand and improve.

[bchris02]

Paseo is unique and OKC is lucky to have such an area. Most of the art galleries in Tulsa are in Brady or Cherry Street.

The closest comparison to Auto Alley is probably Boston Ave between 4th and 6th. Both are growing locally-owned retail corridors. Both also have impressive light displays during the holidays. Downtown retail is an area where both cities need to expand and improve.

I agree about the Paseo. It is probably still my favorite place in OKC. Love the vibe there and the uniqueness of it.

Does Boston Ave in Tulsa have the neon displays like Auto Alley does? Auto Alley is striking and memorable to those not used to seeing it. As somebody who has traveled, lived in multiple cities, and is admittedly sometimes difficult to impress, Auto Alley really "wowed" me the first time I saw it at night.

[Spartan]

When it comes to p̶l̶a̶n̶n̶e̶d̶ under development units, there really isn't any comparison. OKC is currently ahead of Tulsa by a longshot.

Fixed it for you

[Jake]

Developer plans new downtown apartments, completes $95 million sale apartment complexes - Tulsa World: Technology

[Jake]

From TW:
In one of the biggest one-day apartment-property sale clusters in Tulsa County’s history, American Residential Group sold all four of its properties outside of the downtown area for a combined $95 million.

Thanks in part to the sale, American Residential is preparing to build two new properties downtown that could total well over 300 units.The transactions, which closed Tuesday, hands them to Weidner Apartment Homes, a Seattle-based apartment management group that manages more than 38,000 units across the country. Affected properties include Lincoln on Memorial at 7777 S. Memorial Drive; Villas on Memorial, located directly to the south of Lincoln on Memorial at 7877 S. Memorial Drive; Memorial Creek, located at 9602 S. Memorial Drive; and Woodland Park, located at 7350 S. Garnett Road. All current employees of these communities will be retained by Weidner.

Jay Helm, president and CEO of American Residential, said the move is a combination of a redeployment of capital and a refocus.
“We decided we wanted to focus on urban development, not just here but in other cities,” Helm said. That focus includes plans for two new developments in downtown Tulsa. The first, an unnamed project formerly known as Hartford Commons, will be $21 million in new construction at 215 S. Greenwood Ave., and will feature 162 units.

Steve Ganzkow, senior vice president at American Residential, said they’re in the process of bidding out the final details of construction and plan to begin construction by the end of December.
Tulsa businessman Elliot Nelson, developer of McNellie’s Public House and various other businesses in Tulsa and Oklahoma City, has a small interest in the development, said Ganzkow.
The second, to be located on the southeast corner of Elgin and Archer near ONEOK Field, would be a new building with between 160 and 220 units. Plans for that development have not yet been finalized, though Ganzkow said they hope to start construction in the middle of next year.

American Residential currently has the land for that development under contract from the Stadium Trust. In addition, Ganzkow said they’d like to have a third project under development over the next three years. They’re currently investigating potential areas for development along Riverside Drive and the area between downtown and 21st Street.

Ganzkow said he felt the company’s non-downtown developments have been successful, but their passion lies closer to downtown.
“We’ve been involved with the suburban market and the urban market, and we’ve found that urban markets are very complicated and time-consuming,” he said. “But we believe that being able to give back something to the community and participate in the revitalization is exciting for us.”

The company is also considering building in the urban core of other cities, though they haven’t identified where yet. American Residential Group’s downtown-area communities, which will remain with the company, include Lincoln Park at 18th Street and Carson Avenue, Renaissance Downtown at 11th Street and Denver Avenue, the Tribune Lofts at 20 E. Archer St., and the Metro at Brady at 10 E. Archer.Lincoln Park was originally developed by Helm in 1984 for a different company, while the rest were built by American Residential. Tribune Lofts were made from the redeveloped former home of the Tulsa Tribune.

Helm said the properties were marketed for sale for four weeks before they entered into a contract with Weidner. He said the company received multiple offers, but went with Weidner because he felt the company would be a good fit for the residents and employees.

The purchase is Weidner’s first in the Tulsa area, though Helm said they’re looking for other communities in the area in which to buy.In September, Weidner purchased Liberty Pointe Apartments near Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City for $37.25 million. All of Weidner’s Oklahoma transactions were brokered by Brandon Lamb and Tim McKay with Apartment Realty Advisors.

[Spartan]

Cool, potentially another 200 units for downtown Tulsa - or were these units already counted in the pre-existing 600-700 count?

[Swake]

The count is more like 1,000 under construction or planned in Tulsa. Here's the projects I know about.

Urban 8 - 2nd and Kenosha, 8 new construction units for sale are under construction now


100 Boulder - 18 units new construction condos are nearly complete


Lofts at Main and Cameron by George Kaiser Family Foundation are under construction, it’s a warehouse conversion with retail on the first floor and unknown number of lofts above. Lofts are intended for Teach for America teachers.

Sager Lofts - 2nd and Detroit, 23 unit residential conversion of former hotel. It’s on hold, but half completed. Micheal Sager endlessly promises construction is restarting soon. First floor is filled with retail now.


Harrington Lofts - 7th and Boston, residential conversion of former department store, 24 units, nearly complete


Coliseum Apartments - 635 S Elgin, Rebuild of apartment building, 36 units from McNellie's Group


Transok Building - 2 W. Sixth St, 37 unit residential conversion of office building on the national register of historic places. Tax credit is approved and construction should start early next year.


East End Village - 2nd and Kenosha, 53 unit mixed used conversion of Bill White Chevy Dealership into lofts, retail and restaurant space. Under Construction.


Unnamed residential project at the SE Corner Archer and Elgin by American Residential (Hartford Commons, Metro at Brady, Tribune Lofts). 160 to 220 units. Construction is planned to start mid 2015.

Mincks-Adams Hotel Building, 403 S Cheyenne 56 unit residential conversion of former hotel building on national register of historic places. Existing retail will remain on first floor. Tax credit is approved and construction should start early next year.


Brady Flats - Main and Archer, 61 unit new residential construction apartments. This is long delayed but reportedly still on track.


GreenArch Phase II - SE Corner of Archer and Greenwood 70 unit new residential building, the planned second phase of the new GreenArch building. Planned.


YMCA Lofts - 5th and Denver, 82 unit residential conversion of former YMCA under construction.


111 W 5th - Residential conversion of art deco office building, 90 units. Tax credit is approved and construction should start early next year.


Hartford Commons - 215 S Greenwood. New construction residential building with 162 units. Construction starts next month.


Hartford Building, 90 residential units with retail and office in a combination new construction/office building conversion from Brickhugger (aLoft, Mayor Hotel, YMCA lofts, Vandever Building) - Planned.