OKC Vs. Tulsa

[Plutonic Panda]

Here is one of the photo threads I was able to find. It was beautiful. There is one more I need to look as well. Beautiful city!

The *Official* Milwaukee Photo Thread - SkyscraperCity

[Spartan]

Presently the built environments of OKC and Tulsa are pretty similar. The development picture changes that so dramatically that the comparison makes Tulsa look more stagnant than it really is. OKC is booming while Tulsa is stable.

[Pete]

I think I'll take a stab at summarizing hotels, living units and office buildings in Tulsa, at least on a high level.

It would be a good place to start in assembling the same info for other key cities, and keeping track of it.


Human experience is so unreliable when it comes to comparison. I remember a couple of years ago someone from the site visited Wichita's Old Town and came back raving about how many more bars and restaurant it had. It was then pointed out that it only had half of what is in Bricktown.

[bchris02]

Human experience is so unreliable when it comes to comparison. I remember a couple of years ago someone from the site visited Wichita's Old Town and came back raving about how many more bars and restaurant it had. It was then pointed out that it only had half of what is in Bricktown.

This certainly shows the importance of placemaking. Placemaking really enhances the human experience. Old Town Wichita does a pretty good job with that as does Old Market in Omaha. I am excited to see what becomes of Bricktown as the surface lots fill in. I am glad Steve did an article on this not long ago.

[Pete]

This certainly shows the importance of placemaking. Placemaking really enhances the human experience. Old Town Wichita does a pretty good job with that as does Old Market in Omaha. I am excited to see what becomes of Bricktown as the surface lots fill in. I am glad Steve did an article on this not long ago.

Right on all counts but there is also a very strong tendency to misjudge something that is new to you vs. something familiar.

For example, visitors tend to rave about Bricktown whereas most locals are quick to dismiss it.

[BG918]

I think I'll take a stab at summarizing hotels, living units and office buildings in Tulsa, at least on a high level.

That would be an interesting comparison between OKC and Tulsa. Take the downtowns for each city (where the bulk of new urban development is happening) and see the number of residential units built vs under construction or planned, and the same for hotels and office space.

Go to either downtown and there has been a lot of new development with plenty of room for improvement i.e. Surface lots in Bricktown and in Blue Dome, more residential density, the need for grocery store, and more retail. OKC has made two big steps forward with the streetcar plan and the downtown elementary. Tulsa has two higher education institutions (TCC and OSU) but neither is very well connected to the rest of downtown but present future opportunities for growth, as well as the OSU Medical Center. In OKC's case better connecting downtown to the OUHSC should be a priority.

[hoya]

OKC has started from a nearly blank canvas. There was so little downtown pre-MAPS that we were basically starting from nothing. There is a post on this board somewhere, from me, I think before the vote on MAPS 3. In that post I say that OKC sucks, but we are trying to make it suck less. The words were pretty harsh, but I think it drives the point home that we had fallen so far behind that drastic action was needed. The progress we have made over the last 20 years (and particularly the last 10) is a starting point, not an ending point.

Right now is where we should be putting our foot on the gas, not turning on the cruise control. Tulsa needs to get their act together because however they compare to OKC today, they aren't going to hold a candle to OKC in 2024 if they don't get moving.

[Pete]

^

That's harsh all right, but also pretty fair coming from someone who clearly cares a great deal about the community.

If someone from outside of OKC said some of those things, I'd be plenty pissed and offer lots of evidence in debate. But frankly, I think we need more critics, at least those that are committed to making the city better.

I've said it more gently but it's pretty darn shocking to think how bad things had become in the core by the mid 80's, so of course everything that is happening now looks miraculous. But it's a poor of comparison and we should be stacking ourselves up against the best practices of other cities, not our own woeful past.

[bchris02]

I've said it more gently but it's pretty darn shocking to think how bad things had become in the core by the mid 80's, so of course everything that is happening now looks miraculous. But it's a poor of comparison and we should be stacking ourselves up against the best practices of other cities, not our own woeful past.

I completely agree. OKC should celebrate its resurgence since MAPS but shouldn't settle for simply better than the early '90s. Comparisons to other cities is a good thing especially in a city starting with a blank canvas like OKC. It can mean the difference between developments like Legacy at Arts Quarter and high-quality developments like the Steelyard. When you get down to it, prospective residents and businesses as well as natives contemplating leaving don't care as much about how much better OKC is today than it was in 1990 as they do about the quality of life the city offers in 2014.

[Pete]

As far as now being the right time to put our foot on the gas, I really think this aggressive philosophy is what drives Larry Nichols.

The amount of power and influence he wields makes me uncomfortable; well-intentioned rich men were behind the previous disastrous urban renewal efforts, after all. And there is this uniquely American idea that wealthy people know everything about everything.

But Nichols -- in his own low-key way -- has got the pedal to the metal.

Not only did his company invest 3/4 of a billion in the new HQ, he also insisted on remaking the Myriad Gardens and the entire downtown road network and streetscape. When Centennial Park had cost overruns, he wrote a check.

He's also been very instrumental in getting Continental to move to town and is no doubt behind the Preftakes block, both investment and future development.

And maybe even most importantly, he was the driving force in creating the Alliance for Economic Development in order to consolidate and coordinate resources to better recruit and develop projects and companies. Not inconsequentially, it also allowed for lots of things to happen (such as negotiations for all types of public incentives) completely outside open meeting requirements.

More recently, he continues to shape the Convention Center in terms of priority, location and size. Obviously, he feels it's instrumental to the growth and image of OKC.


It's an interesting time, and very tough to balance our ambitions with proper civic due process.

Nichols isn't the only one walking this line and while these methods may be expeditious, we have to be cautious about just letting it happen without scrutiny and on-going discussion.

[Spartan]

Nichols has obviously done more than any one person, but the extent of that influence ends there. He hasn't fueled the downtown residential boom, which in my estimation is the most significant development occurring. It's those rooftops building up now that will enable restaurant and bar owners to have some consistency between rushes, and maybe even push the envelope on actual retail a little bit.

Just to emphasize, it's not that Nichols hasn't whipped out his checkbook to make a condo appear, but more so that I don't even think he considers it much. That aspect isn't surprising, it's just notable. Nichols has and will continue to make a lot of big things happen -- meanwhile it will take a village to make the downtown housing happen, which will outlast the impact of any one thing.

Most cities have a "Mayor's Trophy Case" whereas we have "Larry's Trophy Case."

[PhiAlpha]

Most cities have a "Mayor's Trophy Case" whereas we have "Larry's Trophy Case."

Fortunately, I think we have both.

[Spartan]

The Taco Bell diet? Lol

[Pete]

Nichols has obviously done more than any one person, but the extent of that influence ends there. He hasn't fueled the downtown residential boom, which in my estimation is the most significant development occurring. It's those rooftops building up now that will enable restaurant and bar owners to have some consistency between rushes, and maybe even push the envelope on actual retail a little bit.

Just to emphasize, it's not that Nichols hasn't whipped out his checkbook to make a condo appear, but more so that I don't even think he considers it much. That aspect isn't surprising, it's just notable. Nichols has and will continue to make a lot of big things happen -- meanwhile it will take a village to make the downtown housing happen, which will outlast the impact of any one thing.

Remember that in addition to everything I mentioned about Nichols, he's also chairman of the Alliance for Economic Development, Chairman of OCURA, and Vice Chair of the OKC Chamber of Commerce.

Virtually every new business and development not only comes through these three key entities, the Alliance and OCURA directly negotiate all the incentives that are part of almost every single downtown development of the last 10 years. Almost nothing happens downtown without pretty significant incentive packages.

People don't seem to grasp how much power and influence he has on virtually everything that happens downtown.

[Rover]

Do we know if Larry is ANTI residential downtown, is ambivalent, doesn't focus on it, or just doesn't understand its relevance?

[Rover]

Who in Larry's circle can we reach to influence him?

[Spartan]

Do we know if Larry is ANTI residential downtown, is ambivalent, doesn't focus on it, or just doesn't understand its relevance?

It's more a case of those latter possibilities than actually taking a position AGAINST. I think.

But I remember back when the streetcar discussion was living on the edge of Nichols' changing whims and broadcasted thought patterns, which must have been hilarious for him personally to see something he just doesn't think much about get so sensationalized.

Larry Nichols is the greatest civic figure OKC has ever had. Colcord and Classen and Couch (the civic leader one, as opposed to..) all had rivals. Today we all fall in line behind Larry, I think in part, bc there is unanimity.

[Pete]

But I remember back when the streetcar discussion was living on the edge of Nichols' changing whims and broadcasted thought patterns, which must have been hilarious for him personally to see something he just doesn't think much about get so sensationalized..

It's pretty clear he's thought about it a lot and has never been crazy about it.

Remember, long after the MAPS 3 vote passed (and where the streetcar was one of the most popular aspects) and committee plans were very far down the road, there was suddenly demand among "downtown stakeholders" for the entire project to be reevaluated, complete with a consultant interviewing said stakeholders for their feedback. Where do you think that came from?

Then, Nichols makes some pretty negative comments about the streetcar:

“Having the wrong sort of streetcar will not enhance development, it will impede it,” Nichols said. “We all have the same goal. But a noisy, ugly streetcar may be a detriment to some of these areas rather than an enhancement.”

Remember, in addition to everything I've already listed, Nichols is also heavily involved with on-going decisions around Project 180.


I've said many times that Nichols is a gentleman and only wants what he thinks is best for OKC. But if he decides he doesn't like the streetcar, heaven and earth must be moved to try and appease him because if that doesn't happen, everyone understands the likely consequences.

[okclee]

I've informally run into Larry a couple times the last year or two and ironically each time that I've said hello to him, he was walking around downtown, and he was walking alone.

[Rover]

It's pretty clear he's thought about it a lot and has never been crazy about it.

Remember, long after the MAPS 3 vote passed (and where the streetcar was one of the most popular aspects) and committee plans were very far down the road, there was suddenly demand among "downtown stakeholders" for the entire project to be reevaluated, complete with a consultant interviewing said stakeholders for their feedback. Where do you think that came from?

Then, Nichols makes some pretty negative comments about the streetcar:


Remember, in addition to everything I've already listed, Nichols is also heavily involved with on-going decisions around Project 180.


I've said many times that Nichols is a gentleman and only wants what he thinks is best for OKC. But if he decides he doesn't like the streetcar, heaven and earth must be moved to try and appease him because if that doesn't happen, everyone understands the likely consequences.

And yet, we are getting the streetcar. Under your assumptions, he must not be that much against it. And, I see nothing wrong with someone saying we need to get the best we can afford. If everyone thinks any streetcar system is the same as any other, then fine...I am admitedly not a street car expert (though I have ridden many and can opine that there are significant differences). He wasn't saying ALL streetcars are noisy & ugly, but that we don't want those that are. So, what is so negative about that? I have seen sleek, quiet, comfortable and relatively quick and that's what I hope we get.

[warreng88]

Pete, what do you think is holding OKC back from being able to get a seat at the Texas boom table with Dallas, Austin, Houston, and San Antonio? Do you think it is the state of Oklahoma holding it back moreso than the city itself? If OKC was in Texas would it be in on the boom?

Not Pete, but I would say that is the main reason. Imagine OKC where ODOT didn't control every road and did some construction with debt. Imagine no smoking in bars, the ability to buy higher point, cold beer and wine in grocery stores, the ability for the cities to set their own minimum wages, pay our teachers better, the ability to tax vacant properties or just lots higher than improved properties, the AICCM finished and sprawl managed properly.

[Rover]

Not Pete, but I would say that is the main reason. Imagine OKC where ODOT didn't control every road and did some construction with debt. Imagine no smoking in bars, the ability to buy higher point, cold beer and wine in grocery stores, the ability for the cities to set their own minimum wages, pay our teachers better, the ability to tax vacant properties or just lots higher than improved properties, the AICCM finished and sprawl managed properly.

Imagine no personal income tax.

[adaniel]

Imagine property taxes 3x greater.

[Pete]

And yet, we are getting the streetcar. Under your assumptions, he must not be that much against it. And, I see nothing wrong with someone saying we need to get the best we can afford. If everyone thinks any streetcar system is the same as any other, then fine...I am admitedly not a street car expert (though I have ridden many and can opine that there are significant differences). He wasn't saying ALL streetcars are noisy & ugly, but that we don't want those that are. So, what is so negative about that? I have seen sleek, quiet, comfortable and relatively quick and that's what I hope we get.

We haven't got it yet and at the behest of Nichols & Co. they just moved a big chunk of a very minimal contingency budget to the convention center. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the streetcar gets cut back before it's all over, while the convention center is growing.

In that quote, Nichols was specifically criticizing the electric wire system that was always going to be a part of the implementation in OKC and long after that had been decided, he started going off about how it would "ruin" site lines, etc.

I think Larry Nichols is a very smart and even a kind, well-intentioned man. But so were the downtown businessmen that pushed through the last big urban renewal projects and that should be a cautionary tale to not let any one or few people have that much power, especially when we are talking about tax dollars.

[Rover]

We don't have to bet....I'll buy you some donuts when you are in town.