OKC Vs. Tulsa

[Pete]

Pete, what do you think is holding OKC back from being able to get a seat at the Texas boom table with Dallas, Austin, Houston, and San Antonio? Do you think it is the state of Oklahoma holding it back moreso than the city itself. If OKC was in Texas would it be in on the boom?

It's too early in the decade to know if are keeping up with the Texas cities or not. We're certainly getting closer.

20% MSA growth in a decade is more or less the Boom Town standard and we may achieve that; we should know in another couple of years if we are on pace.

If we stay at or above that 20% target, it won't matter to me that Austin is still growing at 35%.

But I think that 20% growth rate should be our standard and expectation and then lots and lots of good things will flow from that.


I don't use the state and the crazy politics as an excuse because Texas has the exact same situation and it certainly hasn't held them back.

[BDP]

True, it's one traffic circle. However the public space around the traffic circle was quite special, and is not anywhere to be found in OKC.

I wouldn't discount everything Tulsa at all, but this is kind of a good example where something in Tulsa is held up as "special" and then when you look at it, it's like "eh, I guess that's cool". I mean, I think they did a good job with it, but special or impressive are not the words I'd probably go for. Now, I wouldn't speak of our traffic circles that way either, but I don't look at the two and immediately think we have to redo ours to be like this one.

Lots of things in Tulsa are nice, but I don't ever really remember thinking "now THIS is special" about anything really. I'm certainly not saying that everything in OKC is better or more often more impressive in any way. Again, to me, it's not that the quality of development in Tulsa is bad, just that it's so often oversold, imo.

[BDP]

Or, we can continually ask, "Why can't we be a lot more like Austin or Denver or Charlotte or Nashville?"

I think this is starting to happen and what's interesting about it is how much of it is coming from our younger entrepreneurs and developers. It does seem like more of them are staying and that they, as a group, are less cynical about OKC than when I came out of college. Even more than asking "why can't we be more like those markets", they just go out and try and make it that way.

[okclee]

I always like how Bricktown gets overlooked in the Tulsa v Okc discussion.
Also I also feel like having an NBA team does not get the credit it deserves.
If Tulsa had Bricktown and or the Thunder, you would never hear the end of those accomplishments.

[BG918]

Yeah, TulsaNow kinda sucks. It makes me really appreciate this site and the work that Pete and Steve do.

TulsaNow hasn't been an active forum in several years, especially compared to OKCTalk. I wouldn't use it as a general indicator of what is happening in Tulsa or the surrounding area. From a construction/development standpoint there is more going on in OKC which ties back to the difference in growth rates and overall economic strengths between the two metros. I worked for Flintco and the OKC office always had more work than the Tulsa office even though Tulsa is the HQ. That being said there is a lot of new development especially downtown as outlined in this NYT article: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/12..._r=0&referrer=

[Pete]

FYI, I own TulsaTalk.com and would be interested in starting it up but don't want to squash Tulsanow.

I should talk to them and offer to migrate over a lot of their info and provide the software and some of the other things we have implemented here.

I bet a lot of people here would like to not only see their development better organized and documented, but also participate.

[jerrywall]

If there was any distinguishable feature that separates the two cities it is Riverparks/Turkey Mountain, as OKC doesn't have something really like it. Yes there are the Oklahoma River trails but they are not as popular and central to the surrounding neighborhoods and overall psyche of the city as Riverparks. Turkey Mountain is a huge asset with its location and hiking/biking trails, not many cities anywhere have anything quite like it in the middle of the city.

Aren't they looking at doing private development (a mall or something) on Turkey Mountain?

[BG918]

Aren't they looking at doing private development (a mall or something) on Turkey Mountain?

There is a proposed outlet mall about a half mile from Turkey Mountain. It has been opposed by many because it would be so close to the park, and some trails cross that property even though it's technically private property. There are doubts whether it will actually get built though.

[Pete]

New NY Times article on downtown Tulsa's revitalization:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/12...referrer=&_r=2

[AP]

New NY Times article on downtown Tulsa's revitalization:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/12...referrer=&_r=2

400 apartments...

[Plutonic Panda]

New NY Times article on downtown Tulsa's revitalization:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/12...referrer=&_r=2

When Tulsa gets on the front page of the paper, I might be impressed. However, it should be important to note I have seen multiple cities shined in the limelight of the NY Times, so I think that is just something that they do. It's also in their real estate column which is weird. Most articles of up and coming cities I've seen by them were in opinion blogs or their US News section.

[Pete]

My dream is to have a xxxTalk.com in every Tier 2 & 3 city (Tier 1's are pretty well covered) and then keep comparable metrics in number of living units, hotel rooms, office square footage, and total investment for every year.

Would be very interesting to track how various cities are fairing.

As it is now, every city feels like they have so much going on but how does it compare to Kansas City or Denver?

I would think the number of new living units and hotels rooms in downtown OKC would compare very favorably, but it would be interesting to see the numbers.

[adaniel]

400 apartments...

.
They gotta start somewhere.

FYI, I own TulsaTalk.com and would be interested in starting it up but don't want to squash Tulsanow.

Squash away. TulsaNow is really terrible.

[Plutonic Panda]

My dream is to have a xxxTalk.com in every Tier 2 & 3 city (Tier 1's are pretty well covered) and then keep comparable metrics in number of living units, hotel rooms, office square footage, and total investment for every year.

Would be very interesting to track how various cities are fairing.

As it is now, every city feels like they have so much going on but how does it compare to Kansas City or Denver?

I would think the number of new living units and hotels rooms in downtown OKC would compare very favorably, but it would be interesting to see the numbers.

Do you have any plans on doing that or something laid out? That would be awesome and I'd support it any way I could. There's City-Data, but they don't really compare the cities like you are. They post random stats about each city which is cool. Although I would love to see a development comparison.

[Pete]

When Tulsa gets on the front page of the paper, I might be impressed. However, it should be important to note I have seen multiple cities shined in the limelight of the NY Times, so I think that is just something that they do. It's also in their real estate column which is weird. Most articles of up and coming cities I've seen by them were in opinion blogs or their US News section.

It's true that every city has a Chamber of Commerce and local groups that can put together great PR and assemble favorable press clippings.

But remember you can say the same thing about OKC.


There is a big danger into buying into your own hype.

Every city I visit has tons going on, too. A couple of years ago I took a planned 5-mile walk in Milwaukee and it depressed me to see where they were (Milwaukee!) compared to OKC.

The simple truth is it feels like so much is happening right now because we previously had so little. There is a lot to be proud of and excited about, but perspective is important.

[Pete]

Do you have any plans on doing that or something laid out? That would be awesome and I'd support it any way I could. There's City-Data, but they don't really compare the cities like you are. They post random stats about each city which is cool. Although I would love to see a development comparison.

I have a business plan and have purchased lots of domain names. Have also identified the cities with the biggest unmet need. Kansas City is high on my list.

But, to really pursue it I would have to go all-in, full-time; hire people, create a two-way database, mapping tools, etc. The way things are done here are quite manual, so I couldn't just scale things up.

I already own USATalk.net; would like to do a national site that would be an umbrella, with the cities underneath, and common tracking tools where data could be easily consolidated. I've given thought to setting all this up in OKC, looking into incentives, maybe even going through i2e or another business incubator. Would almost certainly have to take on investors.

Then, things would get very interesting. How many hotel rooms are currently under construction in the US? How many urban apartments are planned for the next year and the year after that?

Also, this would have to make money so while this may all seem interesting to us development fanboys, there would have to be a wider market.


If you haven't seen Curbed.com, they do something similar but on a pretty high bloggy and feature level, and only in select cities.

[AP]

They gotta start somewhere.

Sure, but that article is trumpeting the resurgence of downtown Tulsa and 400 apts is hardly a resurgence.

[Pete]

BTW, one real easy way to put things into perspective is by looking at universities.

In the last 10-15 years, OU (and OSU too, I just don't follow them as closely) has spent hundred of millions (really, well over a billion), vastly improved their admission standards, quadrupled their endowment and is generally regarded to have massively upgraded in general.

Yet, you know how many notches they climbed during that time, according to the US News rankings? Maybe 5. And they still have over 100 colleges ahead of them.

Why? Because every single university is doing those exact same things, many to an even greater extent.


Cities are the same way. Try to find one that isn't pumping billions into its central core, transit, etc.

I would love to come up with a way to track this sort of thing in an objective manner. Create a ranking system for urbanization. Would be very interesting to see, wouldn't it? And more importantly, it would give cities real metrics to measure against and aspire to.

The only thing we really have now is population trends and unemployment rates, with tons of anecdotal stuff that is hard to put into context.

[Urbanized]

...There is a big danger into buying into your own hype.

Every city I visit has tons going on, too. A couple of years ago I took a planned 5-mile walk in Milwaukee and it depressed me to see where they were (Milwaukee!) compared to OKC...

Just a note on Milwaukee: it doesn't sound sexy from here, but it has been a leader in the urban revitalization movement since the late eighties. Their Mayor in the late 80s and early 90s was John Norquist, who is a thought leader in the New Urbanism movement and who was President and CEO of the Congress on New Urbanism for a decade, until earlier this year. When I attended the International Downtown Association conference in Los Angeles in 2000, Milwaukee Downtown (their version of Downtown OKC, Inc.) was heavily drawn upon for presenters and facilitators, and EVERYONE was paying rapt attention, including places like the Times Square BID and the LA Fashion District. So the reality is that they are one of the best examples of downtown and urban revival in the U.S.; it just isn't well known outside of downtown development circles.

But your point is well taken; I have said for years and completely agree that in OKC a major problem has been an attitude that we are the only ones doing what we are doing, when the reality is that much of what we are experiencing is happening everywhere and in some cases has been happening for decades. I honestly think a part of the problem has been the way much of ours came together; lots of public works projects that gave us massive shots in the arm all at once. I also think that the innovative nature of the MAPS funding vehicle made us a little bit arrogant. Sure, nobody else had done it that way, but that's not to say that nobody else was doing it. I do think though that this attitude is changing as our leaders and citizens are exposed to similar (and in many cases even more ambitious) revivals in other communities.

[Pete]

^

You could also say that OKC *had* to do something like MAPS, because our urban core was so incredibly dire. It really is shocking to think about how bad things had become where virtually every bit of Midtown -- an area sandwiched between affluent neighborhoods and the CBD -- was abandoned. Dozens and dozens of lots cleared not by urban renewal but by owners who just didn't want to deal with them. Plaza Court completely shuttered along with the majority of other buildings in the area. It took big incentives to get Saint Anthony to even stay! And of course, Midtown was a million times better off than Deep Deuce or 95% of Bricktown and on and on...

The Milwaukee comparison is a bit unfair because like most cities built on navigable water, they've always had quite a bit of housing in their core which in turn supported the area even during suburban flight that every other city experienced. They also have several colleges near downtown (Marquette, MSOE, UW-M) and maintained a decent amount of industry nearby, even though a lot left as well.

It really is hard to compare cities because they are all so incredibly unique but I've loved every single American city I've ever visited, and I've seen almost all of them. Or I should say, I've found a lot to love in the cores of all those cities.

I was in wedding in Cleveland in the early 90's -- somewhat before new urbanism became such a national rage -- and I *loved* their downtown! I was shocked to see so much new development and redevelopment. I mean, Cleveland is a city that everyone jokes about yet they were absolutely light years ahead of OKC in this regard.

[bchris02]

I do notice there is a tendency in OKC to compare to itself in the early 1990s rather than other cities its size across the country. In the grand scheme of things I would say OKC is developing and improving faster, but it also started from much farther behind. I really think the next five years of development are going to be crucial for OKC. In my personal opinion, for this city to compare favorably with other metro areas between 1 and 1.5 million in population, one needs to be able to live comfortably without a car downtown here. That cannot be done in 2014. It more than likely will be doable in 2019 barring unforeseen circumstances.

[Pete]

The real key is to see what happens when the economy slows down.

As I said before, an oil boom masks a lot of sins. Right now, it's hard to even mess up as a developer. And if you do, you just flip it to someone else who'll give you a nice profit.

OKC is in a much, much better position than in the early 80's but my concern is keeping the momentum moving forward, especially when things get tight.

[hoya]

My dream is to have a xxxTalk.com in every Tier 2 & 3 city (Tier 1's are pretty well covered) and then keep comparable metrics in number of living units, hotel rooms, office square footage, and total investment for every year.

I'm already a member of XXXtalk. It's a very different website than this one.

[Plutonic Panda]

It's true that every city has a Chamber of Commerce and local groups that can put together great PR and assemble favorable press clippings.

But remember you can say the same thing about OKC.


There is a big danger into buying into your own hype.

Every city I visit has tons going on, too. A couple of years ago I took a planned 5-mile walk in Milwaukee and it depressed me to see where they were (Milwaukee!) compared to OKC.

The simple truth is it feels like so much is happening right now because we previously had so little. There is a lot to be proud of and excited about, but perspective is important.

I agree with this. I haven't been to Milwaukee, but I saw some photos of it on skyscraper page and it was incredible. The skyline is amazing and beautiful and the street life there is bustling!

[Pete]

Milwaukee is awesome! I was born there and have a family reunion every summer and I always walk from their 3rd Ward (south of downtown, somewhat like Bricktown but mostly residential)) along the Milwaukee River and up parallel to the lake to the "East Side" where my parents grew up, just south of UW-Milwaukee. In that 3-4 miles there is amazing new urbanism and history on every block and people everywhere.

Of course, none of my aunts, uncles, cousins and other relatives actually live within the city limits. But there are plenty of young people who do.