OKC Vs. Tulsa

[Pete]

I was in Tulsa yesterday, and honestly, was quite jealous of several things I saw. Really the first time I have been in Tulsa for leisure and had a chance to see the sights.

What specifically impressed you?

[catch22]

What specifically impressed you?

The Riverside trails, very nicely down, and very much used by the public. (TONS of people out running, biking, playing with kids/dogs, reminded me of some of the beach trails in LA area). I never see many people out on our trails, even on really nice days like Sunday was.

The riverside district (I think that is what it is called at 36th and Peoria). Very small urban stretch -- tons of people out walking around, small shops and crowded sidewalk patios.

Also, was impressed by the traffic circle downtown. That intersection is a fantastic example of placemaking.

[Plutonic Panda]

The Riverside trails, very nicely down, and very much used by the public. (TONS of people out running, biking, playing with kids/dogs, reminded me of some of the beach trails in LA area). I never see many people out on our trails, even on really nice days like Sunday was.

The riverside district (I think that is what it is called at 36th and Peoria). Very small urban stretch -- tons of people out walking around, small shops and crowded sidewalk patios.

Also, was impressed by the traffic circle downtown. That intersection is a fantastic example of placemaking.

There is one traffic circle downtown surrounded by one way, wide, streets that have huge cracks in them.

I was on the trails with my aunt a few weeks ago and the weather was beautiful; nobody was out on them when we were there.

[BG918]

The Riverside trails, very nicely down, and very much used by the public. (TONS of people out running, biking, playing with kids/dogs, reminded me of some of the beach trails in LA area). I never see many people out on our trails, even on really nice days like Sunday was.

The riverside district (I think that is what it is called at 36th and Peoria). Very small urban stretch -- tons of people out walking around, small shops and crowded sidewalk patios.

Also, was impressed by the traffic circle downtown. That intersection is a fantastic example of placemaking.

If there was any distinguishable feature that separates the two cities it is Riverparks/Turkey Mountain, as OKC doesn't have something really like it. Yes there are the Oklahoma River trails but they are not as popular and central to the surrounding neighborhoods and overall psyche of the city as Riverparks. Turkey Mountain is a huge asset with its location and hiking/biking trails, not many cities anywhere have anything quite like it in the middle of the city. On the other side Tulsa has nothing like Lake Hefner which is a great area for jogging and biking, and the restaurants on the east side offer a unique experience not common in inland cities. Seeing the sailboats and windsurfers on a nice day is a cool experience, and very few places have something like that in the city limits.

I wish both cities had more on-the-water restaurants like what you see in Austin; in Tulsa on the Arkansas River and in OKC on Lake Hefner, and eventually maybe on the Oklahoma River near downtown. Both the Arkansas and Lake Hefner suffer from the occasional lack of water and hopefully there is a future solution for both, especially in Tulsa where during the late summer and winter the Arkansas can be nearly completely dry except near downtown behind the dam.

[BG918]

Just out of curiosity, what is the #2 American energy hub? I'm assuming Houston is #1.

Houston is clearly #1 nationally and globally. I was thinking Denver #2 with OKC closely behind at #3 with DFW #4 and Tulsa #5. Pittsburgh #6 currently and would likely jump Tulsa and maybe DFW if gas prices rebound. For all of North America Calgary would be the solid #2; Edmonton is also up there. This includes all energy including renewables which IMO gives Denver the slight nod, as well as their position as the center of a vast energy-rich area in the Mountain West/Great Plains. OKC is the main center for Mid-Continent E&P; Tulsa is a secondary E&P center but is a larger midstream and services hub.

[bchris02]

OKC has a couple of traffic circles in Midtown. I don't see how the one in Tulsa is any more impressive than the ones in OKC.

I will say I am a bit jealous of 15th St through the Cherry St district. That area is like Western Avenue on steroids and placemaking is a little better.

[Plutonic Panda]

OKC has a couple of traffic circles in Midtown. I don't see how the one in Tulsa is any more impressive than the ones in OKC.

I will say I am a bit jealous of 15th St through the Cherry St district. That area is like Western Avenue on steroids and placemaking is a little better.

The base lights up at night, but other than that, it is just a traffic circle. Nothing special about it. Edmond has one south of 2nd St.

[Jake]

Riverside in Tulsa is cool. If the Arkansas River actually had water in it, it'd be even cooler.

[bombermwc]

Well they had that 2020 vision or whatever that COULD have done that. Remember, we used to mow the Oklahoma River and said the same thing about it. It's amazing what a few dams can do to a waterway. OKC had the benefit of a rather narrow waterway though because it's a flood flow "river". The Arkansas is a LOT wider so its going to be a lot more difficult to get it damed up and full without causing significant issues with downstream flow...it's just too wide. And in the hot summer, that much surface area can be a big evaporation area.

[AP]

Well they had that 2020 vision or whatever that COULD have done that. Remember, we used to mow the Oklahoma River and said the same thing about it. It's amazing what a few dams can do to a waterway. OKC had the benefit of a rather narrow waterway though because it's a flood flow "river". The Arkansas is a LOT wider so its going to be a lot more difficult to get it damed up and full without causing significant issues with downstream flow...it's just too wide. And in the hot summer, that much surface area can be a big evaporation area.

That doesn't change the fact that it would be a lot cooler if it had water in it.

[Edgar]

Biggest difference is aesthetics. Tulsa does things with much more style and taste. OKC downtown is bustling, with soul crushing anywhereAmerica corporate blandishments, or we have hick Oilies hiring the architects. Stick with finding fossil fuels. Compare the proposed parks for ex.- which one invites you in to explore and which one will be ready to host the zombie apocalypse. Isn't there already a Central Park somewhere? Instead of having a hand out like Hamm et al, Tulsa's Oillie Kaiser funded a Gathering Place. Both towns have cool midcentury neighborhoods. Tulsa cherishes it's heritage, cool midcentury homes are being razed in N.Hills for generic McMansions. As for live music, Tulsa is a music hub with historic venues and passionate fans, and we have the Diamond Ballroom and BT Events Cnt. The Zoo took over the ampitheater and ruined it. Believe I saw a guy get expelled for sharing a smoke at the ZZ Top show.

[catch22]

There is one traffic circle downtown surrounded by one way, wide, streets that have huge cracks in them.

I was on the trails with my aunt a few weeks ago and the weather was beautiful; nobody was out on them when we were there.

True, it's one traffic circle. However the public space around the traffic circle was quite special, and is not anywhere to be found in OKC.













It does us no good to discount everything in Tulsa, they are doing some things right. Or we can totally keep our heads in the sand and pretend Tulsa has no answers and only OKC is making the right steps.

[AP]

It does us no good to discount everything in Tulsa, they are doing some things right. Or we can totally keep our heads in the sand and pretend Tulsa has no answers and only OKC is making the right steps.

They are doing some things right, but they are very minimal compared to everything going on here.

[Pete]

Tulsa simply started from a better place, especially with the river trails, Utica Square and the Brookside area.

I have not visited in several years and I'll do my best to get there on my next trip, but it's all I can do to see everything in OKC, even when I'm there a week.


I've always thought Midtown in OKC has the potential to be the best urban neighborhood in the state, and comparable to most any in the middle of the country. But, it's a pretty massive area and even with everything going on, it's going to take some time to mature. But when it does and the streetcar starts rolling through there, it's going to be a really special place. Especially if Auto Alley can fill their gaps and bridge Midtown to the CBD, Deep Deuce and beyond.

[bchris02]

They are doing some things right, but they are very minimal compared to everything going on here.

Development in Tulsa is very minimal compared to OKC. However, they do have the "placemaking" thing down pat, which is something OKC has struggled with for a long time. Good placemaking can make an area just seem nicer.

[adaniel]

Tulsa simply started from a better place, especially with the river trails, Utica Square and the Brookside area.

Even now, I believe Tulsa is the city with more potential. OKC has been very good at luring outside investment and generally turning nothing into something, but in terms of physical and nontangible assets Tulsa has OKC beat. Which is kinda why the situation up there is so maddening. I cannot think of a place in this region that has done so little with so much.

I would put the Arkansas River well over the North Canadian, but what place actually did something to improve it? Tulsa has been debating for YEARS on what to do with their river. If Tulsa has such a better music scene why did it take them so long to build their arena? These are just a few of several examples.

I like Tulsa and am constantly checking TulsaNow for development updates. Maybe its because their board is simply not as advanced as this one is, but there is literally nothing. Just lots of snarky political posts. Same with Tulsa World. For a city that is by most measures doing well economically you'd expect to see a lot more.

[Pete]

By far the biggest issue in Tulsa is the lack of good public and private leadership.

OKC has done better, although I think people get a little carried away, especially because the most common comparison is Tulsa, which has been a mess in this regard. The reality is that we had a very long way to go and we still lag lots of our peers.

If the population growth starts to pick up pace, I'll be ready to give OKC more comparative credit, but as it is we don't look so good when even looking at Fort Worth, let alone Dallas, Austin, Houston... Most the cities in our regions that are riding the same strong economic wave.

I really like Tulsa and don't mean any disrespect when I say for OKC to become a lot better, it needs to set its sights higher than what we've had in the past and what is happening up the turnpike.

[Rover]

Potential is about more than a river, some hills, and tall trees. It has to do with the heart and soul of a community and the vision they SHARE. Tulsa has always been a city of the haves and the have nots. And the have-nots like to feel that they are haves because they inhabit the same city. OKC has historically been WAY more inclusive and finally found the vision to rally around, as well as being catapulted into being galvanized by unfortunate and tragic events which showed we all have MUCH more in common than we have differences. That is something we can embrace and continue, or we can split ourselves (downtown v. suburbs), drivers v. walkers, millenials v. greatest generation, business v. citizens, wealthy v. poor, etc., ect.) as I see many on here prone to do. Our greatest asset is a sharing of sacrifice, of celebration, of resources, and of visions. That is why OKC is progressing faster than Tulsa. But, Tulsa has the same opportunities and can do the same if they can defeat their own historic divisiveness.

[bchris02]

OKC is lagging Texas cities but in terms of economic growth it is outpacing its true peers in other states.

Austin is a media darling, one of the shining stars of our day along with Denver and Portland. Dallas and Houston are in another league altogether and OKC cannot be compared with them. I think sometimes OKC lacks perspective because its most commonly compared with either Dallas (a world class city) or Tulsa which has done some things right but is still a mess in a lot of ways. There is a huge world out there beyond that.

When you compare OKC to its true peers - places like Jacksonville, Memphis, Birmingham, Louisville, etc - it looks like a shining star on the economic front. Development here is significantly outpacing anything currently happening in Jax or Memphis or Louisville. It does still have ground to cover when it comes to quality of life amenities but that is for little other reason than the fact this city is coming from so far behind. Within five years, I think OKC will compare pretty favorably against the cities it should be compared with.

[Pete]

High oil prices and the resulting booming economy covers lots of sins and makes people appear smarter than what they are.

We darn well better be outpacing Memphis, Louisville and Birmingham. I don't think anybody aspires to be like those cities, although Louisville has a nice downtown. None of them have any sort of economic catalyst and are hardly dynamic communities.

We should be looking at Raleigh, Indy, Nashville and Denver (a big reach, but a great model) IMO.

[adaniel]

Potential is about more than a river, some hills, and tall trees. It has to do with the heart and soul of a community and the vision they SHARE. Tulsa has always been a city of the haves and the have nots. And the have-nots like to feel that they are haves because they inhabit the same city. OKC has historically been WAY more inclusive and finally found the vision to rally around, as well as being catapulted into being galvanized by unfortunate and tragic events which showed we all have MUCH more in common than we have differences. That is something we can embrace and continue, or we can split ourselves (downtown v. suburbs), drivers v. walkers, millenials v. greatest generation, business v. citizens, wealthy v. poor, etc., ect.) as I see many on here prone to do. Our greatest asset is a sharing of sacrifice, of celebration, of resources, and of visions. That is why OKC is progressing faster than Tulsa. But, Tulsa has the same opportunities and can do the same if they can defeat their own historic divisiveness.

I actually had something similar typed a few posts ago but decided it would be too controversial. You worded it much better than I could have though, and yes I agree with this 100%.

OKC has its flaws, but Tulsa is simply not a very inclusive place. It has always really bothered me how segregated Tulsa is, and I am not just talking amongst racial lines (although it is that as well). One of my friends is a tried and true 918er and he always states that one of the advantages Tulsa has is that you don't have to "live next to undesirables" like you do in OKC.

I'm always puzzeld by this because I don't really consider that to be an advantage. Cities by and large are dynamic places and everything is very mixed in. At least during the day, poor mingle with the rich, young with old, and white with the nonwhite. Whereas in Tulsa, the city definitely has the feel of little fiefdoms eveywhere, with lots of ideological inbreeding within them. It's very suprising for this to happen in a city of 400K, and needless to say, this enviornment does not foster new ideas very well.

To address what Pete said, yes I agree Tulsa doesn't have a very unified political climate, but I have seen far worse in other cities that are still eeking out decent growth--I would include Dallas in this. The issues up there run a bit deeper than mere politics.

[Jake]

I like Tulsa and am constantly checking TulsaNow for development updates. Maybe its because their board is simply not as advanced as this one is, but there is literally nothing. Just lots of snarky political posts. Same with Tulsa World. For a city that is by most measures doing well economically you'd expect to see a lot more.

Yeah, TulsaNow kinda sucks. It makes me really appreciate this site and the work that Pete and Steve do.

[Pete]

It is true OKC has a great deal of unified pride, even among those who don't live within the city limits. The Thunder has made a huge difference but OKC has always been more excited about it's own future. Maybe that has to do with MAPS and people feeling more personally invested.

But if you take away Tulsa's setting and infrastructure that has been around for decades -- not the result of new urbanism -- there isn't much for OKC to aspire to. That could easily change, and I hope it does. So much potential up there.

But as things are, we're just not going to get very far if they are our yardstick.

I know Dallas and Houston and now Austin are way larger, but they are also growing at a higher percentage even on that considerable base.

There is absolutely no reason that OKC should not be growing that fast and at the same time, we can look to other cities in terms of good planning. Salt Lake City is another one that has done lots of things right.

[bchris02]

Pete, what do you think is holding OKC back from being able to get a seat at the Texas boom table with Dallas, Austin, Houston, and San Antonio? Do you think it is the state of Oklahoma holding it back moreso than the city itself. If OKC was in Texas would it be in on the boom?

As for aspirations, I completely agree that Tulsa should in no way be OKC's yardstick. I do think Indianapolis is a good model. They are a city that has done a lot yet don't have the "cool" factor of an Austin or a Denver. I really hope OKC becomes a convention city like Indianapolis after the new CC is built. Louisville may not be a dynamic, booming city but their downtown is very nice and a good model for OKC's downtown. They are years ahead in terms of housing and number of people living downtown. What is specifically nice about Louisville is the level of placemaking. They have done a very good job with the small details.

[Pete]

To use a sports metaphor, having to train and compete against better opponents is the best way to make drastic improvement.

I'm a respectable triathlete and had more or less hit a plateau, feeling like I had accomplished a lot but had kind of settled in and knew about where I would finish in any given race. "I'm this type of triathlete."

Then, I joined a training group where a good number of the people were considerably faster. And although that was uncomfortable and a bit tough on the ego, what I came to realize that many of them were not better athletes (although some certainly were), they just pushed themselves harder. It's a simple concept but it was very eye-opening in a perfectly measurable, simplistic way.

And that's exactly where OKC is. We can all continue to congratulate each other on our success and recognition, which has been nice but hardly earth-shattering. Or, we can continually ask, "Why can't we be a lot more like Austin or Denver or Charlotte or Nashville?" Instead of, "Well at least we are doing better than Tulsa and Memphis." (Again, no disrespect to Tulsa!)


One of my little life lessons is I've come to realize that DRIVE is the most important thing in achieving success. Ambition and the will to achieve it will always trump natural talents and resources. And in the case of OKC, we need to keep setting our sights higher and higher, because we still have a long way to go.