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  1. #76

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by EnragedOUfan View Post
    When it comes to economics and taxes, Oklahoma needs to quit comparing itself to Texas.

    Texas has almost 28 million people in population, Oklahoma almost 4 million. Texas has 7 times more people than Oklahoma. Texas can afford things that we can't.

    Texas has major metropolitan hubs (Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio), and multiple professional franchises and teams, and people from around the nation and world actually pay to visit Texas. Our two states cannot compare, Texas is much larger.

    I just truly feel that the "Texas has no state taxes" argument mathematically can't happen in Oklahoma.
    It could happen, but the state would need to double or triple property taxes to offset the loss of income taxes. And a lot of people probably wouldn't be cool with it.

  2. #77

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by EnragedOUfan View Post
    When it comes to economics and taxes, Oklahoma needs to quit comparing itself to Texas.

    Texas has almost 28 million people in population, Oklahoma almost 4 million. Texas has 7 times more people than Oklahoma. Texas can afford things that we can't.

    Texas has major metropolitan hubs (Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio), and multiple professional franchises and teams, and people from around the nation and world actually pay to visit Texas. Our two states cannot compare, Texas is much larger.

    I just truly feel that the "Texas has no state taxes" argument mathematically can't happen in Oklahoma.
    THIS!

    We simply cant compete with the built in advantages Texas has. The sheer size of the state, the vastly larger natural resources like oil and gas, having millions of jobs because of NAFTA and being Mexico's neighbor, its ports along the gulf with which manufacturers set up shop to make and ship products all over the world. Oklahoma cant compete with Texas because it simply isnt a level playing field, regardless of economic and tax policies.

  3. #78
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    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    THIS!

    We simply cant compete with the built in advantages Texas has. The sheer size of the state, the vastly larger natural resources like oil and gas, having millions of jobs because of NAFTA and being Mexico's neighbor, its ports along the gulf with which manufacturers set up shop to make and ship products all over the world. Oklahoma cant compete with Texas because it simply isn't a level playing field, regardless of economic and tax policies.
    Oklahoma can't compete with any other state, such as Kansas, unless it uses oil and higher prices for it. Decisions made at the State Capitol making it look like it's more important to support low pay jobs than education don't work well to attract more jobs to the state. The higher unemployment rate in southeastern Oklahoma shows that.

  4. #79

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by bradh View Post
    People without ties to this state are leaving for things like better education for their kids. I hate to say it but I think another brain drain is coming.
    I recently played a music festival in which a lot of my colleagues in the group were Texas music teachers. Not only do they make vastly more money there, they also have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to equipment, assistants, etc.

    At this rate, Oklahoma might as well just shut down its teacher ed programs. I don't see the utility in educating teachers only to export them to other states.

  5. Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Texas picks up the revenue by increasing taxes on real property.

  6. #81

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    It's pretty simple minded to say that Oklahoma couldn't abolish personal income taxes. Of course if all else is constant that is true, but when exactly did the world start operating in a static environment?

  7. #82

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    But those are mediocre to less than mediocre, glad it isn't worse type ranks.
    GDP growth rate I can see being mediocre, but not the state's GDP rank.

  8. #83

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    It's pretty simple minded to say that Oklahoma couldn't abolish personal income taxes. Of course if all else is constant that is true, but when exactly did the world start operating in a static environment?
    It's pretty simple minded to say that Oklahoma could abolish income taxes without hiking taxes someplace else.

    It takes money to run a government.

  9. #84

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by KenRagsdale View Post
    Texas picks up the revenue by increasing taxes on real property.
    And highe gross production tax. And if I'm not mistaken, part of it is dedicated to education.

  10. Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Texas state land also generates perpetual revenue for education, etc. https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/mnl01

  11. #86

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by KenRagsdale View Post
    Texas state land also generates perpetual revenue for education, etc. https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/mnl01
    So does Oklahoma. You know...land grant colleges and what not. If anybody cares to understand how this works I would be happy to share as my family has leased land from the state before.

  12. #87

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    I'd love to know more about land grant colleges and how that works...

  13. #88

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    I'd love to know more about land grant colleges and how that works...
    In short, the Morrill Act (1865 I think) granted states 30,000 acres of federal lands for each of their congressional senators and representatives. I'm not sure how they came to own the land we rented, but I assume it kind of works like Indian Trust land in that they can designate new land to be Trust land, but no more acres essentially. So I grew up in North Central Oklahoma, land run country. The state in that area was divided into grids. A 6 mile by 6 mile section was called a township. Each township had a school house in the middle (so no kid had to walk too far), and each one still has a quarter section of state land. Every 10 years (or 5, I can't remember), the land is put out to bid. The highest bidder (willing to pay the most cash rent per year) get's the bid. Pretty much no questions asked, as long as you pay the rent that is. The little quirk locally is that often a farmer will farm this land for decades, so often times people will not out bid the farmer out of respect, as long as the bid is a reasonable rate for rent at the time. In other words, as long as a farmer isn't paying half the going rate, many will not challenge the bid. It was considered a dick thing to do, and often times done by "corporate farmers" who have no relationships with locals. I know there aren't really corporate farms in Oklahoma but let's just call them hired guns by major land owners paid to "manage" the farms. The lease payments go to the state with the intent on funding higher ed. However, I honestly couldn't tell you solid that linkage is anymore. You know how the state house works.

  14. #89

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings

    I know it's probably one of those studies to beat one party over the head.

    Also keep in mind that it is really focusing on the solvency of the states. Not the level of services, how well run they are. So basically can we pay our soon coming bills and the ones we promised int the future.

    And considering all the "hard decisions" that have been made, I guess a pat on the back is due. At least they don't just keep spending like there is no tomorrow like some of these other states.

  15. #90
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    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Speaking of rankings, just out today, CNBC ranked Oklahoma 43rd best state for business. In 2016 it was 42.

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/ameri...l-ranking.html

  16. #91

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    Speaking of rankings, just out today, CNBC ranked Oklahoma 43rd best state for business. In 2016 it was 42.

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/ameri...l-ranking.html
    Five spots behind New York? Odd list. I don't doubt that Oklahoma should be in the bottom quarter based on my own purely non-scientific musings and travel, but some of these just seemed unusual. Washington is #1? Georgia 2?

    How was each category weighted? equally?

  17. #92

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Five spots behind New York? Odd list. I don't doubt that Oklahoma should be in the bottom quarter based on my own purely non-scientific musings and travel, but some of these just seemed unusual. Washington is #1? Georgia 2?

    How was each category weighted? equally?

    Here are this year's categories and weightings.

    Workforce (425 points)

    Infrastructure (400 points)

    Cost of Doing Business (350 points)

    Economy (300 points)

    Quality of Life (300 points)

    Technology & Innovation (225 points)

    Education (200 points)

    Business Friendliness (150 points)

    Access to Capital (100 points)

    Cost of Living (50 points)

  18. Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    KInd of about the OK economy, haven't read all his posts yet, just skimmed, but seems interesting:

    http://ocpathinker.org/

    Here's an article about it:

    https://nondoc.com/2017/10/26/blog-f...k-needle-ocpa/

  19. #94

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    https://kfor.com/2019/02/20/board-ok...s-next-budget/

    Quick, cut taxes to make sure Oklahoma doesn't have enough money to actually turn itself into a nice state competing with other top performing states!

  20. #95

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    https://kfor.com/2019/02/20/board-ok...s-next-budget/

    Quick, cut taxes to make sure Oklahoma doesn't have enough money to actually turn itself into a nice state competing with other top performing states!
    Knocking the wisdom of tax cuts while at the same time recognizing an increase in revenues?

    I'm confused.

  21. #96

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    https://kfor.com/2019/02/20/board-ok...s-next-budget/

    Quick, cut taxes to make sure Oklahoma doesn't have enough money to actually turn itself into a nice state competing with other top performing states!
    Shhhhhh!!!! dammit don't give anyone ideas!!!!!

  22. #97

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Knocking the wisdom of tax cuts while at the same time recognizing an increase in revenues?

    I'm confused.
    The wisdom of tax cuts? Have you been living under a rock?

  23. #98

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    Shhhhhh!!!! dammit don't give anyone ideas!!!!!

  24. #99

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Knocking the wisdom of tax cuts while at the same time recognizing an increase in revenues?

    I'm confused.
    I've learned in my life that there is a sweet zone of revenues vs. services provided. When your state is constantly scrimping for enough revenue to properly pay teachers, to keep Universities properly funded, to keep highways paved, to have only bare bones mental health services, etc, then tax revenues may be too low.

    The city of Denver, for most of my 15 years here, has done a pretty good job of spending money. We have good public transportation, plenty of new revenues coming in with new construction, good parks, bike paths and trails, good libraries, fire and rescue, sports venues and teams, museums, theaters, etc. Taxes are higher than OKC but Denverites get more. I don't agree with everything they spend money on and they spend money on completely unnecessary things (like police brutality cases and sexual harrassment cases), but in general, they do a decent job. The state is much like OK, not enough revenue so state responsibilities are generally below quality.

  25. #100

    Default Re: Oklahoma Economy

    I am not advocating going the California way in regards to our taxes but I think Oklahoma could stand to have higher taxes in many areas and a tax reform in general eliminating income tax as part of that.

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