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  1. #151

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    I really like the corner entrance.

    Nice job by the developer and the design committee.

  2. #152

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Maybe there will still be a place on one of the sides for a mural. I think there really should be one on this venue.

  3. Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    Glad to see them recognize Reeve Tarron with Legacy Bank. He was the banker on my office and was very helpful in getting the financing for the extra details. Young guy and definitely going to be one of the movers and shakers of his generation.

  4. #154

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    i think the revised rendering is fantastic. I really can't wait for this to be built, I'll have to fly down from Seattle to attend the first concert.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  5. #155

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    I'm thinking it's time for some new depictions at the top of this thread.

    This is the design firm they are working with. Unfortunately, there is nothing depicted here that makes you say "WOW". It's all very mundane.

    http://bucherdesign.com/

  6. #156

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I really like the corner entrance.

    Nice job by the developer and the design committee.
    Agreed, the new entrance design is great.

  7. #157

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    I'm thinking it's time for some new depictions at the top of this thread.
    I don't have the new renderings yet and Steve screams bloody murder if we post them from the Oklahoman.

    The full set will be included in the next Bricktown Design agenda.

  8. #158

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    I'm thinking it's time for some new depictions at the top of this thread.

    This is the design firm they are working with. Unfortunately, there is nothing depicted here that makes you say "WOW". It's all very mundane.

    Bucher Design Studio, Inc.
    Palmer Lake is a small town off I-25 between Denver and Colorado Springs, near where we have looked at some land. Seems a bit odd they would be used for a project like this. I guess they have some connection to the investor.

  9. #159

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Some thoughts by Steve on TIF and how it relates to this project and possibly others in the future.

    Changing designs for proposed Criterion concert venue could mark new direction for tax increment financing | NewsOK.com

  10. Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    I kinda like the thought of using a TIF as a so called carrot for developers to upgrade design.

  11. #161

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    I think it's a simple situation where design review says they would like to see changes and the developer says that will blow their budget, so the committee suggests applying for TIF funds.

    In the end, it still amounts to gap funding which is the same premise everyone uses when applying for these funds.

  12. #162

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewmperry View Post
    I kinda like the thought of using a TIF as a so called carrot for developers to upgrade design.
    +1. I think there's a lot of potential with that approach.

  13. #163

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I think it's a simple situation where design review says they would like to see changes and the developer says that will blow their budget, so the committee suggests applying for TIF funds.

    In the end, it still amounts to gap funding which is the same premise everyone uses when applying for these funds.
    I think it also brings us developments that actually could use the public subsidy. This is a good trend.

  14. #164

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    The article at the top of the page has been updated with the most recent submission to the Bricktown Design Review Committee.

    Although they plan to make a presentation at the December 10th meeting, they are not yet seeking formal approval of these plans.

    I suspect they are looking for more feedback before taking that next step.

  15. Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    FWIW, All the windows that were added have spandrel glass in them. Meaning they are completely opaque.

  16. #166

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    From the Journal Record:

    Criterion owners move forward, but seek city assistance

    By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record December 23, 2014

    OKLAHOMA CITY – Progress on The Criterion music venue’s future site will soon be evident as the remaining Stewart Metal Fabricators buildings at 420 and 500 E. Sheridan Ave. are scheduled for demolition.

    Developer Matt Maley with Colorado-based Alliance Investments LLC said the buildings’ taps will be cut this week and demolition will begin Monday. In total, three buildings will be razed.

    In their place, Maley and Wormy Dog Saloon owners Ronnye Farmer and Philip Randolph plan to build a 39,000-square-foot, two-story concert venue at the corner of E. Sheridan and Charlie Christian avenues. It will be across the street from The Steelyard mixed-use facility. The project’s plans were first submitted to the Bricktown Urban Design Committee in November. The BUDC gave the group extensive notes on changes it would like to see to the building. The group went back to the BUDC in December, and will return in January with hopes of gaining approval.

    Since its first design, the project’s budget has gone up by $1 million to $6 million. Maley said the developers are seeking funds from the city, in addition to a loan amount originally approved from Legacy Bank.

    “In order to bridge the gap between the original approved value and the new project costs, the property owners and developers are seeking TIF (tax increment financing) assistance,” he said, though he did not have an exact total that will be sought.

    If TIF funds are not received, Maley said that he, Phillip, and Randolph will have to reassess the project’s viability.

    The E. Sheridan area in Bricktown was historically home to several oil wells and is a brownfield site. Steelyard developers Andy Burnett and Gary Brooks have dealt with related environmental issues on their site. Because of his group’s environmental studies, Maley said, the same problems are not expected.

    “We’re aware of what we have underneath us,” he said. “We don’t foresee any issues moving forward with that. We have typical Bricktown urban infill things, but there are no signs of any issues in the ground.”

    The Criterion will sit at 500 E. Sheridan Ave. The 420 E. Sheridan property was purchased Monday by Joey Chiaf, the managing partner of CRJO LLC. Chiaf previously owned Bricktown’s IHOP building with partners in Bricktown Marketplace LLC. Maley said it was a news article about the IHOP building sale that led him to call Price Edwards & Co. broker David Dirkschneider to see if Chiaf would want to purchase the property.

    Chiaf and his group purchased the 40,000-square-foot lot for $2.4 million. They already owned the parcel at Joe Carter and E. Sheridan avenues; therefore, the 420 E. Sheridan Ave. purchase increased their land size to about 1.5 acres.

    “Right now, they’re going to bulldoze the building and just add it to the current parking and make it all automated,” Dirkschneider said. “Their goal would be to develop it, but they’re just not sure what yet. They want to wait until The Steelyard and The Criterion are complete. They are not in any rush.”

  17. #167

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Very interesting.

    So, the developers are asking for TIF money to cover the $1 million in improvements asked by the design committee.

    Enter the new tactic for future developers who want to get public assistance: Submit a bare-bones design then claim any suggested changes should be paid for with tax money, otherwise it's not economically feasible.

  18. Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Very interesting.

    So, the developers are asking for TIF money to cover the $1 million in improvements asked by the design committee.

    Enter the new tactic for future developers who want to get public assistance: Submit a bare-bones design then claim any suggested changes should be paid for with tax money, otherwise it's not economically feasible.
    Yeah, this just reeks. If you don't have contingency funds available for design changes, then you shouldn't be building.

  19. #169

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Considering the remodel of the Cheverolet events center and the planned music venue over by 21c I don't think we need the criterion theater enough to bring TIF funds into the deal. Sure it would be a great development but I smell a rat.

  20. #170

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    I'm not criticizing the developers of this project, just saying that it opens up another can of worms and sets a precedent.

    It also puts the City in a very funny position: By asking for design changes you are basically sending the bill to the taxpayers.

  21. #171

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    This may not be very popular on here, but if none of these venues(concert hall, ClayCo Towers, etc...) will come down or compromise, I'd just tell them to walk. A big league city also includes turning things down that don't meet your standards or make sense.

  22. #172

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Love this development, but I can't imagine why taxpayers should foot the bill for anything. The original proposal was about as bland and bare bones as it gets. The changes were reasonable and will likely just make this a more attractive and profitable venue long term. If it's not viable after the changes then let them walk.

  23. #173

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    I think it would be worth looking at how a similar situation would be handled in another city and comparing. Is TIF subsidies unique to here or do other cities give them? If they do happen in other cities, how liberal are they with TIF subsidies compared to OKC? TIF has become a dirty word on OKCTalk and I am afraid that it has become so without real perspective on what it is or how they are used elsewhere.

    I agree with PluPan that big league cities should turn down developments that aren't up to standard rather than rubber stamping everything. Unfortunately I don't think OKC is at that point yet. Despite all the development over the past 20 years, it's still a fact of life that downtown OKC has some ground to cover compared to peer cities and some of that catching up will require a subsidy to make happen.

    I want OKC to be a city that pulls its weight and has the entire package. A part of that package is not having to drive to smaller regional cities to see live music. Part of that is a Bricktown with a wide variety of entertainment choices and not just dinner, a movie, or a nightclub. I was okay with the original bare bones version of this proposal but the revision is a home run and I think it should be approved.

  24. #174

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    I don't think TIF has become a dirty word... People are just starting to ask good questions about how these districts are set up and funds used. It's up to public officials to justify the allocation of tax dollars, not for citizens to justify asking questions about that process.

    And I disagree with the statement that that OKC has ground to cover in terms of peer city downtowns. Which peer cities have recently built more or have more currently in progress? I'll stack OKC's office, apartment and hotel vacancy against anyone. So, at what point do you stop subsidizing private developers just because they ask?


    My concern is that TIF funds are considered (and treated like) free money, and that is certainly not the case.

    What's more, how these districts are set and how the money is spent is decided by a very small group as opposed to MAPS funds which go through a huge political process and public vote. THEN there are citizen committees set up to guide and manage the entire process.

    And the small group putting forth the ideas and making the decisions are clearly in love with the TIF funding mechanism. At least two more TIF districts will soon be pitched.

    TIF dollars do get approved by city council but IMO they are not given good enough information to make informed choices. The council doesn't get presented with anything more than you see posted here, and it's pretty clear we don't have good answers for a lot of questions that have been raised.

    And beyond that, there is very much a political culture of approving all this stuff lest you be labeled an obstructionist and hater. Same with demolitions.


    It's healthy for the public to challenge political decisions, especially when you are talking about hundreds of millions of tax dollars and plenty more of these districts on the way.

  25. #175

    Default Re: Criterion Concert Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post

    And I disagree with the statement that that OKC has ground to cover in terms of peer city downtowns. Which peer cities have recently built more or have more currently in progress? I'll stack OKC's office, apartment and hotel vacancy against anyone. So, at what point do you stop subsidizing private developers just because they ask?
    By this, I mean the downtown ecosystem in its entirety, not the rate of developments proposed and built. A lot of the "catching up" OKC has ahead of it is actually regaining things that were lost in urban renewal, things that peer cities still have. OKC would not need to subsidize the construction of a music venue if it had a historic theater to revitalize into one like other cities have done.

    I agree though it's good to have more knowledge of how these things work. I just don't want to see a trend of opposition to every development that asks for a TIF subsidy. Some developments are worth it in my opinion and this is one of them.

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