Criterion Concert Hall

[Urbanized]

A few things:

1. Tower Theater guys ABSOLUTELY do 99% themselves. There is NOBODY out-hustling them in OKC right now. Chad had some promotion experience but it was years ago and in another city. Essentially they started with very little experience, but have absolutely been KILLING it by working their tails off, being quick studies, incredibly good, genuine dudes, having an excellent venue, incredible sound system - where they DID have some top-shelf out-of-the-box expertise - treating artists like GOLD, having an amazing green room, great partners, amazing social media effort, and by being deeply embedded in the local arts community and the "local" community altogether. They are already out-punching their weight class and I think the sky is the limit for them and for that venue. They also have been experimenting with letting other promoters book the venue.
   
   
2. DCF gets great shows because they are a big-time promoter, at least regionally. They not only book shows at Diamond, they book Brady Theater, Zoo Ampitheater, Cotillion Ballroom in Wichita, and shows at arenas in all of these cities including Chesapeake. They get great shows at DIAMOND because that industry is based on doing booking favors. Agents ask them to take shows and promise them other shows in return. DCF operates Diamond; so they can also offer that venue very inexpensively. Diamond isn't going anywhere. Unless DCF took over another venue, and then only maybe.
   
   
3. I agree about the hate for the Diamond being a bit over-the-top. Yeah, it's in a bad location and it has a ****ty gravel lot. But in a lot of ways it's really similar to Cain's, at least as far as the experience. Venerable, old-school dance hall, legendary country performers on the wall, cool history, wood floor, etc.. Also, if you stay in front of the sound booth the sound is honestly pretty similar. I personally think it's too long. If you stand in the back, yeah, the sound is terrible. The bathrooms suck. The bars suck. I hear the artist experience isn't great (they used to not even have a backstage area; just a door off the stage that led to the busses. But if you see shows like I do - at 50 I still usually try to be within a few feet of the stage at most shows - it is a pretty decent experience.
   
   
4. Diamond has had WAY more shows worth going to than those two you listed, TT! Last year I saw Run The Jewels there just a couple of days after I saw Mastodon, which was a few days after Band of Horses. Old 97s, Toadies, Modest Mouse, Silversun Pickups, Cody Johnson Band, The Sword, Coheed and Cambria, Gogol Bordello, The Struts, Wolfmother, Tyler, The Creator, Spoon, They Might Be Giants...all of those bands have been there in the past three years and that is a fraction of the total shows. All of those worth going to. Also bands like Local Natives, fun, and Young The Giant, Social Distortion and Cake have all been there since that Sleigh Bells show (I was at that one too and it was indeed great).
   
   
5. Regarding Criterion, man, I just don't know. They are experienced guys who had great connections lined up. They have honestly had the highest profile overall shows since they opened - and shows I never thought I'd see in this town - but the quantity is just a slow drip, no question. I really do think a bunch of their early booking mojo is being gobbled up by Scott doing bookings at Jones Assembly, a venue with amazingly deep pockets.

[TheTravellers]

A few things:

...
[*]Diamond has had WAY more shows worth going to than those two you listed, TT! Last year I saw Run The Jewels there just a couple of days after I saw Mastodon, which was a few days after Band of Horses. Old 97s, Toadies, Modest Mouse, Silversun Pickups, Cody Johnson Band, The Sword, Coheed and Cambria, Gogol Bordello, The Struts, Wolfmother, Tyler, The Creator, Spoon, They Might Be Giants...all of those bands have been there in the past three years and that is a fraction of the total shows. All of those worth going to. Also bands like Local Natives, fun, and Young The Giant, Social Distortion and Cake have all been there since that Sleigh Bells show (I was at that one too and it was great.
...

Oh, yeah, I know they have variety, just seems like they have mostly metal shows, with a few others in between, but they just don't match up with who I'm listening to.

Not my thing - Modest Mouse (wife likes them, surprised she didn't want to go), Gogol, TMBG, Mastodon, Old 97s, C and C, Young the Giant, Cake (ditto about the wife), Social D
Would've gone if I hadn't been slacking and read about it in time - Wolfmother, Sword (I need to check out oklahomarock.com/shows more often)
Should've gone, don't know why I didn't - fun, SS Pickups

And honestly, now that we live in Venice, it's more of an option than when we used to live on 164th/Penn, so I need to keep track of them more often...

Also, good to know that the Tower is all them, pretty amazing what they're doing, don't know how they've even slept for the past couple of years!

[Roger S]

[*]I agree about the hate for the Diamond being a bit over-the-top. Yeah, it's in a bad location and it has a ****ty gravel lot. But in a lot of ways it's really similar to Cain's, at least as far as the experience. Venerable, old-school dance hall, legendary country performers on the wall, cool history, wood floor, etc.. Also, if you stay in front of the sound booth the sound is honestly pretty similar. I personally think it's too long. If you stand in the back, yeah, the sound is terrible. The bathrooms suck. The bars suck. I hear the artist experience isn't great (they used to not even have a backstage area; just a door off the stage that led to the busses. But if you see shows like I do - at 50 I still usually try to be within a few feet of the stage at most shows - it is a pretty decent experience.

Didn't get to look around when I was there for the Old 97's show but at one time a pic of my band from the 90's was hanging in there... In fact the Old 97's show was the first time I had set foot in the building since we played it around 97-98.... Don't know if the new ownership left the pics of some of the lesser known local bands that rotated through there back when it was a dance hall or not.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^
I’ll have to look next time I’m there. What was the band name?

Also, to follow up on my previous post I wanted to mention that some of my best ever concert experiences came along with swilling terrible, watered-down beer and peeing in an open trough with stars overhead at Zoo Ampitheater, or sidestepping vomit and peeing into a filthy, broken toilet at the Green Door/Conservatory, which was a true dump if there ever was one and wore that status like a badge of honor. In that terrible room I’ve seen acts from Melvins to Mike Watt to Rogue Wave to Band of Horses to We Are Scientists to Arcade Fire and The Unicorns.

Great concerts happen when passionate people work hard to bring great people to a place, care about putting great live music in their town more than they do about making money, and about fans being willing to take a chance on a band they know little or nothing about. For me the best shows are about bands on their way up - emerging artists - than about seeing someone play their hits. But great concerts rarely have much to do with how nice the parking lot or bathrooms are.

[Roger S]

^^^^^^^^
I’ll have to look next time I’m there. What was the band name?

Chute 5

And I agree with the rest of your post 110%. I've enjoyed every small venue concert I've ever been to way more than any of the stadium shows I've attended just for the intimacy with the artists.

[ksearls]

^^^^^^^^
But great concerts rarely have much to do with how nice the parking lot or bathrooms are.

Preach brother! You know that's right!

[Johnb911]

And I agree with the rest of your post 110%. I've enjoyed every small venue concert I've ever been to way more than any of the stadium shows I've attended just for the intimacy with the artists.

One of the reasons I have loved going to Diamond the 3 (maybe 4?) times I have to see Jimmy Eat World. It's an intimate venue you can get up close and personal with the band, if they want to get up close and personal with the audience (which JEW always does)

[Anonymous.]

Anyone ever been to the Bomb Factory in Deep Ellum in Dallas? That is a very comparable venue and should be booking the same shows. EDM, Rap, Rock, Indy, get them all!

[Colbafone]

Aww, I love seeing some people come out of the woodwork for Diamond!

In the past three years, I have seen OK GO, They Might Be Giants, Modest Mouse, Powerman 5000, Tech N9ne, Killswitch Engage, and Blue October, off the top of my head. Any of those would receive huge acclaim if they were in Bricktown. I passed on seeing the Deftones, August Burns Red, 21 Pilots, Shinedown, Of Mice and Men, and a couple of others I can't remember. Again, Diamond is consistently pumping out great shows.

[Colbafone]

Anyone ever been to the Bomb Factory in Deep Ellum in Dallas? That is a very comparable venue and should be booking the same shows. EDM, Rap, Rock, Indy, get them all!

Oh man, I saw the actor that plays Hodor in Game of Thrones do his "Rave of Thrones" at Bomb Factory. The Criterion is pretty much a carbon copy of the Bomb Factory. The Bomb Factory is an awesome place.

[BDP]

A few things...

I think I'm just going to carry around a screen shot of this post and every time I hear the same old complaints about OKC's "music scene", I'm just going to make them read it, and maybe follow it up with an explanation of what a local "music scene" actually is.

The reality is that sooooo much has changed for the better, that the conversation needs to change with it, but I still hear the same complaints from like 10 years ago, most of which just aren't even relevant any more. And I think you nailed it in your comparison of Cain's and the Diamond. I know the deification of Cain's will stand for a long time and it deserves its spot atop a lot of its peers, but that does have a lot more to do with history and booking prowess than the room or experience. Once inside the buildings, the experience is not that different between the two. The back half of the Diamond is worthless and they do like a lot of bands where the drummer is running a seated sprint for 80 minutes and the singer is doing a demon impression, but I have enjoyed a lot of shows there outside of that genre. If they did put some money into it, they could probably move the stage forward, use that space to build out a nicer back stage, and fix up the bathrooms. Do that and all of sudden the real difference between the two becomes mainly the location and a doorway to a barbecue joint.

[soonerguru]

I think I'm just going to carry around a screen shot of this post and every time I hear the same old complaints about OKC's "music scene", I'm just going to make them read it, and maybe follow it up with an explanation of what a local "music scene" actually is.

The reality is that sooooo much has changed for the better, that the conversation needs to change with it, but I still hear the same complaints from like 10 years ago, most of which just aren't even relevant any more. And I think you nailed it in your comparison of Cain's and the Diamond. I know the deification of Cain's will stand for a long time and it deserves its spot atop a lot of its peers, but that does have a lot more to do with history and booking prowess than the room or experience. Once inside the buildings, the experience is not that different between the two. The back half of the Diamond is worthless and they do like a lot of bands where the drummer is running a seated sprint for 80 minutes and the singer is doing a demon impression, but I have enjoyed a lot of shows there outside of that genre. If they did put some money into it, they could probably move the stage forward, use that space to build out a nicer back stage, and fix up the bathrooms. Do that and all of sudden the real difference between the two becomes mainly the location and a doorway to a barbecue joint.

Are we really still trying to defend the Diamond Ballroom? No, it does not compare favorably to Cain's in any demonstrable way. Its location, for starters, is terrible. Once inside, it does not in any way remind one of Cain's. It is a shame the proprietors of the Criterion cannot get it together for whatever reason. It also does not compare favorably to Cain's, but at least it is a decent venue in a better location than the Diamond.

I'm glad to see that OKC's musical situation is improving, and I'm particularly pleased with what I'm seeing happening at the Tower Theatre. No coincidence that things improved once the Criterion people were out of it. That said, Tulsa is still a preferred destination for a variety of acts, and the Brady District is now a fun and sophisticated destination for dining and nightlife that OKC can learn from. It does us no good to bury our heads in the sand and pretend we're better. We're not, at least yet.

[Colbafone]

I don't think anyone is saying that Diamond is as great as Cains is. Location is everything between those two and Cains wins hands down. But come on. Put those two right next door to each other as they currently are and there isn't much difference. The Diamond Ballroom is a really cool venue. It sucks it's waaaay out of the way. We all get that. No one is debating that. But outside of that, there isn't much separating it between other similar historical venues.

[Rover]

Oh man, I saw the actor that plays Hodor in Game of Thrones do his "Rave of Thrones" at Bomb Factory. The Criterion is pretty much a carbon copy of the Bomb Factory. The Bomb Factory is an awesome place.

My nephew’s band, “Light The Fire” plays The Bomb Factory quite a lot. It’s a good gig for them. Would love them to play The Criterion. Their band is Metal, so I don’t know if Crierion reaches out to as wide of an audience as Bomb Factory.

[catch22]

Pretty sure if you picked up the Diamond Ballroom and dropped the building and gravel parking lot in some area of downtown, such as the farmers market area or where the Homeland is on Classen; everyone here would be raving about how much character it has. But, since it's not close to a hipster bartender with a curled up mustache pouring $12 drinks it is total crap. Whatever works. I go to places to see the band and enjoy a show, not admire the parking lot or exterior facade of the building.

Diamond isn't the best thing, but if they were truly horrible like you read on this board they would have shut down a long time ago.

[Urbanized]

Rover I haven’t seen anyone say that OKC’s music scene is better than Tulsa’s or that Diamond is in any way the equal of Cain’s. Everyone also agrees that the location is terrible, the parking lot is terrible, the bars and restrooms are crummy.

BDP and I have only said - essentially - that Diamond is a better venue once the lights go down than some will give it credit for being. And also I said that the bookings there are pretty decent overall due to the reach of the promoter and that it will probably remain a part of our scene, which I think is fine until such time that other venues improve their booking to the point where they render it fully obsolete.

Regarding Tulsa all I can say is that a couple of months ago I started (and then abandoned due to getting busy) a spreadsheet to compare the markets since Criterion, Jones and Tower opened. After working on it I’d still give Tulsa a slight edge but OKC has closed the gap incredibly quickly. Nearly every show on the books or in the recent past at Cain’s and Brady has either also recently been to an OKC venue or is on the schedule.

Also, I was certain not to limit to my own tastes, despite the fact that they are really, really broad. Since I’m mostly a tangential fan and certainly not especially deep in the hip hop, EDM or country genres I actually went out and researched what type of following certain acts had. Pretty easy to do using tools like Pollstar. I didn’t want to handicap the relative quality of bookings by subjecting them to my own taste. Good music is good music - and often the “best” artists have not yet found the most mainstream audience, and in fact some of the best ones never will. To me, regardless of genre, the best measure of a great music town is seeing bands immediately before they reach mainstream critical mass, and DEFINITELY before they start seeing the inside of an arena.

I’m personally humble enough to admit that whether or not I know an act well is certainly no measure of its quality or even its popularity. I’m alway puzzled when people in these conversations dismiss a list of concerts with “well I’ve never heard of those bands so...” I’m sure a number of posters here had never heard of Arctic Monkeys until this thread, yet they sold out Criterion - a quite large room - very quickly, and I would consider them pretty mainstreamed at this point. I was honestly shocked when people posted that they had no idea who David Byrne was when he booked. People just have wildly different takes on what constitutes a “good” show or a “big” act.

I mean, studies have shown that the average person’s mind is wired in such a way that their relative tastes are locked in and that they stop being receptive to new and divergent food flavors AND musical types after a certain age; typically in their mid twenties. I feel fortunate that this has not been the case with me. I’m the old guy at indie, punk and hip-hop shows and I’m certain everyone is looking at me and wondering whose dad brought them to the show. I intentionally try to go to shows of bands who I’m mostly unfamiliar with but who have great buzz around them.

All I know is that I have been going to WAY more shows in OKC in the past two years, and fewer in Tulsa. I’ll never NOT go to Tulsa, but glad we are seeing so many excellent shows here these days, and convinced that if a couple of venues get their act together fully we will eventually - perhaps quickly - be Tulsa’s equal on this front.

[OkieHornet]

My own opinion of the Diamond Ballroom is that it’s a big aluminum shed building that’s been around for 50 (?) years and that it was the only venue around at times for some of these performers to play, and that’s where its colorful history comes from. Not from a great historic past like Cains, but from its availability. That’s just what I think, based on nothing really. I don’t have a feeling many performers bend over backwards to play there, but I have no idea how much artist say there is in booking. I just don’t get the love for the Diamond - to me the sound is usually too loud and muddy (due to low ceiling maybe?), the a/c struggles to keep the place cool... I’ll keep going to shows there if it’s someone who interests me - the ticket prices are usually fairly low, the parking and drive there are what they are, beverage prices are reasonable. But even when the lights go down, there’s not much comparison to Cains - I don’t feel closed in like at the Diamond (ceiling heights), and you can visually see the oldness/quaintness of Cains with the lit-up pictures of old performers on the walls, and the sound to me has always been better at Cains anywhere in the room, unlike the Diamond which seems to have its sweet spots.

[Rover]

Rover I haven’t seen anyone say that OKC’s music scene is better than Tulsa’s or that Diamond is in any way the equal of Cain’s.
.

I think you are addressing someone else’s comments.

[Urbanized]

Man, I just don’t see ANYONE expressing “love” for Diamond. About the kindest thing anyone has said about it - and I’ve probably defended it more than anyone - is that the sound isn’t as bad as everyone generally represents (in fact usually pretty great between the stage and the sound booth), that it has the most experienced and connected promoter in the city (inarguable, for better or worse), and that it has and probably will continue to get much better shows than people give it credit for. That’s it. Again, location sucks, parking lot sucks, bars and restrooms suck. Where is all of this “love?”

If we are ranking club venues in OKC in the 1,000-4,000 capacity range, it ranks (a distant) sixth in room quality. I’ve included Farmers Market, which is a terribly underbooked room and actually COULD give Cain’s a run for nostalgic vibe.

All I’m saying is that all of the hate for Diamond is pretty over-the-top. It’s a fine room (with some decent historic character) that gets more good shows than it probably rates, especially compared to all of the other great rooms. But I’m darn sure not going to simply stop going to shows there simply because I’d rather be going to a different venue instead. I just want good shows to come to OKC. Diamond, Jones and ESPECIALLY Tower are really getting that done right now. Criterion is an enigma. There had some incredible shows but the current trickle of them is frustrating.

[Urbanized]

I think you are addressing someone else’s comments.

Oops! Sorry, you’re right! I was surprised and confused that you were so passionate on the topic! It was soonerguru.

[shawnw]

I’ve included Farmers Market, which is a terribly underbooked room and actually COULD give Cain’s a run for nostalgic vibe.

I've thought this for so long. Every time I see a show there I'm like why aren't we doing this more often? I'm not sure if the acoustics are comparable, but the character, history, and locale are (and/or will be very shortly).

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^^^
True story: when Bob Wills got sideways with the flour company who sponsored his show in Fort Worth, he bailed on Texas in favor of Oklahoma and moved to... ...Oklahoma City.

He set up shop at FARMERS PUBLIC MARKET and began doing his dances/shows there, broadcast on (IIRC) WKY. The problem was that the same flour company also advertised on the OKC station, and after a bit they threatened to pull all of their ads on the station. Wills not not a huge star yet, so the station pulled the plug in favor of their sponsor, so he had to find a new place to play, which he eventually did in Cain’s Ballroom and on Tulsa’s KVOO, which ultimately syndicated his show nationally.

It’s really easy to go back and listen to Wills’ stuff and hear mostly country, but a Western Swing really was one of the basic building blocks of rock ‘n’ roll - along of course with blues, doo wop and other genres - and OKC was *this* close to being long-term home to one of Western Swing’s originators. It’s hard to imagine how different this city would be culturally had Wills been able to stay here and play every Saturday night at Farmers Public Market, as we did for a short while, at least. I’m CONVINCED that at the very least our live music scene would be better for it today.

[BDP]

Are we really still trying to defend the Diamond Ballroom?

Against, over reactions like this... yeah, I guess.

No, it does not compare favorably to Cain's in any demonstrable way.

I'm not sure anyone stated they favored the Diamond over Cain's.

Its location, for starters, is terrible.

No one is arguing that its location is good.

Once inside, it does not in any way remind one of Cain's.

I'm not sure anyone said that, either. But the reality is that, on the inside, they are both fairly nondescript ballrooms. It's actually kind of interesting how plain Cain's is given the many ornate ballrooms built in the same era across the country. Neither have a particular wow factor about them, and, really, Cain's is actually pretty understated when held up to its reputation. Both have history, but Cain's is basically double that of the Diamond.

Really, the best thing Cain's has over the Diamond is that it's just better run overall. If anything, it shows how much that matters.

IMO, the Cain's v. Diamond discussion is just a relic of the old Tulsa v. OKC discussions. It's not really even relevant anymore. The irony is that the Diamond has remained relevant to the market despite the bashing it gets and the growing number of viable venues in the area, mainly because they just keep doing what has worked for them for a long time. They probably don't even need to do the shows that I end up going to, but I'm still glad they do. At the end of the day, though, you can now never lower yourself to go the the Diamond again and still see good shows on a regular basis at multiple venues in OKC. Good deal, right?

[OkieHornet]

I've thought this for so long. Every time I see a show there I'm like why aren't we doing this more often? I'm not sure if the acoustics are comparable, but the character, history, and locale are (and/or will be very shortly).

Now this is something i could get behind! Having been to a concert at Farmers Market many years ago, I really liked the charm and uniqueness of it, as well as the sound. Capacity is good too - 1,000 or so?

[SEMIweather]

I'm unfamiliar with EDM and house music, but my understanding is that the Farmers Market has some good shows coming up in those genres.