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Thread: Voter ID Laws

  1. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Chadanth View Post
    Just use the state ID system and make it free. It's probably not a huge marginal expense, and it would potentially alleviate a lot of the costs associated with litigating voter Id laws in court. Of course, that might also eliminate it as campaign rhetoric, so we can't actually solve the problem.
    I've said all along I'm not against some kind of ID but it's too late for a lot of voters for the upcoming elections and many voters will be turned away. I suggest the state/nation come up with a way for every person to have some kind of voter ID card and help those who need the help getting one. There are lots of folks who don't have birth certificates or other such proof that need help getting it. My thought is to put this off until the 2016 elections giving people time to get their ID's. Do you turn away 1000 legal voters to stop 10 illegal ones?

  2. #202

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    I think people should have to have a Voter License, received after taking a test and a practice vote. On a related note, since I'm a (regretfully) registered Republican, will it be OK or legal for me to vote for UberLiberal Democrat Cathy Cummings (Lt. Gov.) in the upcoming election? I hope so. I want my vote to count. If I send in an absentee ballot, in addition to actually waiting in line at the polling place, will my vote only count once?

  3. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    I think if we're going to pass laws that prevent election fraud I wonder if party's that send out letters telling people the wrong dates to vote or the wrong place should go to jail?

    or things like this.......



    The mailer looks official. It has big letters marked WARNING and "ELECTION VIOLATION NOTICE," seemingly designed to make you think you're the one violating something, and warns of a "possible fraud being perpetrated." But when you open it, it turns out to be a mailer from the Kentucky Republican Party and Mitch McConnell's committee warning you of "fraudulent information" being spread by the campaign of his opponent, Alison Grimes.

    Mailed in envelopes that blare “ELECTION VIOLATION NOTICE” and state “You are at risk of acting on fraudulent information,” the Kentucky Republican Party issued a letter that accuses Grimes of “blatant lies” about McConnell’s advocacy for a local coal plant and his support from “anti-coal activists like Michael Bloomberg.”

    Inside the envelope, you'll find a letter that starts out:

    Dear Citizen,

    This document serves as notification to you, as a resident of Kentucky and a registered voter in the aforementioned Commonwealth, of fraudulent information that is being deliberately spread to voters in your area.

    The information that has been red-flagged as 100% false is being purposely spread by the campaign of the federal candidate named below:

    Alison Lundergan Grimes,


    ... which then launches into a more standard political tirade against Grimes. As Salon's Luke Brinker says, it's "hard to see the mailers as anything but a shameless suppress voter turnout." From the outside of the envelope suggesting that you are guilty of an "election violation" to the faux-official format and claims of "fraud" by the Grimes campaign, the McConnell campaign appears to be hoping that voters will mistake these mailers for "official" documents warning them against casting a vote for Grimes at all.

  4. #204

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    The first sentence, yes. The mailer? Meh. No different than the general junk mail I get on a daily basis from lenders and car lots that look official. I don't like the tactic but it's typical campaign behavior going back to the Nuclear Bomb commercial and probably earlier.

  5. #205

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    A dollar to a donut the violation part would not have been there if Ky had a voter ID law. A little scare tactic for truing the vote I think.

  6. #206

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by kelroy55 View Post
    I think if we're going to pass laws that prevent election fraud I wonder if party's that send out letters telling people the wrong dates to vote or the wrong place should go to jail?

    or things like this.......



    The mailer looks official. It has big letters marked WARNING and "ELECTION VIOLATION NOTICE," seemingly designed to make you think you're the one violating something, and warns of a "possible fraud being perpetrated." But when you open it, it turns out to be a mailer from the Kentucky Republican Party and Mitch McConnell's committee warning you of "fraudulent information" being spread by the campaign of his opponent, Alison Grimes.

    Mailed in envelopes that blare “ELECTION VIOLATION NOTICE” and state “You are at risk of acting on fraudulent information,” the Kentucky Republican Party issued a letter that accuses Grimes of “blatant lies” about McConnell’s advocacy for a local coal plant and his support from “anti-coal activists like Michael Bloomberg.”

    Inside the envelope, you'll find a letter that starts out:

    Dear Citizen,

    This document serves as notification to you, as a resident of Kentucky and a registered voter in the aforementioned Commonwealth, of fraudulent information that is being deliberately spread to voters in your area.

    The information that has been red-flagged as 100% false is being purposely spread by the campaign of the federal candidate named below:

    Alison Lundergan Grimes,


    ... which then launches into a more standard political tirade against Grimes. As Salon's Luke Brinker says, it's "hard to see the mailers as anything but a shameless suppress voter turnout." From the outside of the envelope suggesting that you are guilty of an "election violation" to the faux-official format and claims of "fraud" by the Grimes campaign, the McConnell campaign appears to be hoping that voters will mistake these mailers for "official" documents warning them against casting a vote for Grimes at all.
    The funny part is that it is NOT a notice of an election violation. So... well, that's a lie.

    Then, what's the big "violation" it's trying to notify you of?: "...fraudulent information that is being deliberately spread to voters in your area."

    So, it is basically fraudulent information being spread to voters in the area to tell them about fraudulent information being spread in their area.

    Is this a great country, or what?

  7. #207

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    No different than the general junk mail I get on a daily basis from lenders and car lots that look official.
    Which is also interesting, because if you send out deliberately misleading advertisements, you could be hit with a false advertising charge or at the very least a bunch of complaints to the BBB.

    Political speech has consistently been the most protected speech, and probably should be, so I don't know how you combat it. But it kind of goes back to your "informed voter" concerns. How can we expect a larger population of more informed voters when this is the norm? Sure, we can all wax idealistically about how everyone would have a bunch of free time to really vet these issues and the candidates, but most people just can't do it with them having lives and everything. So, everything gets boiled down to cable news catch phrases, misleading ads, and robocalls. All paid for by clandestine sources that may or may not be actually associated with the campaigns they're trying to win.

    Yeah, it's not going to get better any time soon.

  8. #208

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Sort of how I feel...

    Updated Analysis: Grimes Campaign Suing over McConnell ?Election Violations? Mailer | Election Law Blog

    I don’t buy it. Some people might be confused by the flyer and maybe even think they are accused of some kind of elections code violation. But anyone who reads it will see it is clearly a nasty attack ad aimed at Grimes.

    Voters are not stupid nor so easily intimidated.

    Let me be clearer about the Grimes suit. I see it as a publicity device to accuse McConnell of being a vote suppressor.

    The real evil of the ad is that it is misleading. But it is hard enough to regulate false campaign speech—there are very serious First Amendment problems trying to regulate misleading campaign speech.

  9. #209

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    How can we expect a larger population of more informed voters
    Well in the long run I think the Darwin theory will a fairly good job of weeding out uninformed voters. Sorry to say I doubt the US of A can wait that long to correct the errant course we're on.

  10. #210

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Some people might be confused by the flyer and maybe even think they are accused of some kind of elections code violation. But anyone who reads it will see it is clearly a nasty attack ad aimed at Grimes.
    Yeah, that's what the junk mailers and phishers do. I guess you can lie on the outside, but it's what's on the inside that really counts.

  11. #211

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    Well in the long run I think the Darwin theory will a fairly good job of weeding out uninformed voters.
    Are you talking about the baby boomers?

  12. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Are you talking about the baby boomers?


    He's talking about people who don't vote the way he wants them to.

  13. #213

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    I love how "uninformed voters" is a bad phrase unless we're talking about Fallin voters.

  14. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    I love how "uninformed voters" is a bad phrase unless we're talking about Fallin voters.
    Those are just ill-informed voters *lol*

  15. #215

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    I love how "uninformed voters" is a bad phrase unless we're talking about Fallin voters.
    How is it a bad phrase? Did I say that?

  16. #216

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    My wife and I vote at Western Oaks Church in the 8000 block of NW 23rd. The guy in front of my wife used a Discover card as ID. He told the poll worker he didn't have a driver's license. The woman who allowed that, turned to another worker and said "That's my 3rd Discover card today." (Wife drove into the parking lot at the same time the voter did and walked into the building behind him. He drove himself to the poll.)

    For reference here's what is allowed and Discover isn't on it. Oklahoma State Election Board - Facts about Proof of Identity for Voting in Oklahoma

    Glad to know we cleaned up voter fraud here in Oklahoma with a voter ID law.

  17. #217

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    My wife and I vote at Western Oaks Church in the 8000 block of NW 23rd. The guy in front of my wife used a Discover card as ID. He told the poll worker he didn't have a driver's license. The woman who allowed that, turned to another worker and said "That's my 3rd Discover card today." (Wife drove into the parking lot at the same time the voter did and walked into the building behind him. He drove himself to the poll.)

    For reference here's what is allowed and Discover isn't on it. Oklahoma State Election Board - Facts about Proof of Identity for Voting in Oklahoma

    Glad to know we cleaned up voter fraud here in Oklahoma with a voter ID law.
    Good work Watson!

    Now tell us - does this mean with 100% certainty that this vote was a fraudulent vote?

  18. #218

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Obviously, it doesn't say anything about if the voter committed fraud or not. How could he, though, he had a discover card with his name on it! Fantastic laws we've passed and implemented. Some honest people will be honest!

  19. #219

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    An Alabama congresswoman has formally asked the U.S. Department of Justice to investigate the state’s shuttering of driver’s license offices in several heavily black counties, warning that the closures throw up another obstacle to voting. The call for a federal probe comes as opposition to the state’s decision, announced last Wednesday, continues to mount.

    “These closures will potentially disenfranchise Alabama’s poor, elderly, disabled, and black communities,” wrote Rep. Terri Sewell in a letter sent Monday to Attorney General Loretta Lynch. “To restrict the ability of any citizen to vote is an assault on the rights of all Americans to equally participate in the electoral process.”

    Sewell, a Democrat whose district includes Selma, the historical birthplace of the push for African-American voting rights, called for “a full and thorough investigation by DoJ.”

    Citing budget constraints, the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency said last Wednesday that driver’s license examiners would no longer work at 31 offices around the state. As John Archibald, an Alabama newspaper columnist, noted that day, eight of the 10 counties with the highest share of non-white registered voters will see their offices closed. That includes all five of the counties that voted most strongly Democratic in the 2012 presidential election.

    Alabama DMV closings draw call for federal voting rights probe | MSNBC

    Total coincidence.

  20. #220

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    alabama's dps site lists all of the driver's license offices including those that have been recently closed. according to the page there were 76 offices, 31 of which have been closed. i took that data and fed it into google maps. the average population of the towns with closures is roughly 3800 people. only 4 of the 31 towns with closures had populations of 9000 and above. people living in these towns will now have to drive an average of around 20 miles to the next nearest location. if anything, rural locations were targeted for closure to impact the fewest number of people. assuming the goal was to disenfranchise a certain group of voters, then the plan is shortsighted as it targeted small, rural voting populations instead of larger, urban ones.

    furthermore, a driver's license is not the only form of id accepted. according to alabama's voter id website, the state honors the following id's at the polls:
    Valid Driver's License
    Valid Nondriver ID
    Valid Alabama Photo Voter ID card
    Valid State Issued ID (Alabama or any other state)
    Valid Federal Issued ID
    Valid US Passport
    Valid Employee ID from Federal Government, State of Alabama, County, Municipality, Board, or other entity of this state
    Valid student or employee ID from a public or private college or university in the State of Alabama (including postgraduate technical or professional schools)
    Valid Military ID
    Valid Tribal ID

    if a person has none of the above, then they can obtain a free voter id card at any one of 70 permanent locations around the state... it looks to me as if each county has at least one location and a couple counties operate multiple locations. the office also operates a mobile unit to facilitate registrations as well.

    -M

  21. #221

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Another more in depth look and some conclusions...

    Whatever the intent:

    But the net effect is this:

    Every county in which black voters comprise more than 75 percent of the voter rolls and the bulk of Alabama communities that overwhelmingly voted for President Obama in 2012 will see their driver's license offices close.

    <snip>

    The situation in Alabama makes this much clear:

    Policy can, on its face, look and sound race-neutral, but the impact can be vastly disparate. In this case, the poor are less likely to have their own car as well as the documents necessary to obtain a state-issued ID in the first place. The same is also true of the state's black residents. Now, in order to vote, people in Alabama will need both their documents and a car or at least a good friend willing to do some driving if they don't already have state issued ID or a current one will soon expire.

    Perhaps that's why most of the state's major newspaper columnists have come right out and said some variation of this. Alabama might have budget challenges, but the way that state has opted to address them would appear to undermine the long-running insistence among Voter ID supporters that the laws aren't intended to suppress anyone's votes -- or have that practical effect.

    How Alabama will save $11 million ? but undermine claims that Voter ID is race-neutral - The Washington Post

  22. #222

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves
    Every county in which black voters comprise more than 75 percent of the voter rolls and the bulk of Alabama communities that overwhelmingly voted for President Obama in 2012 will see their driver's license offices close.
    yeah... that statistic is pretty easy to achieve if you close 40% of the total driver's license offices. using the same closure statistics, you could also say that 75% of the counties with closings overwhelmingly voted for romney in the 2012 election. stop the presses... these closings are clearly a democratic conspiracy to reduce the state's republican vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves
    Policy can, on its face, look and sound race-neutral, but...
    ok, now you're just arguing against voter id laws in general instead of discussing the effects of this specific action.

    -M

  23. #223

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws



    ok, now you're just arguing against voter id laws in general instead of discussing the effects of this specific action.

    -M
    Always have. Erect barriers, however low, and those with means will clear those easier than those without. Period. Thus, voter id laws will skew who votes. That's kinda always been the argument on one side.* Now we see a specific case where that's been exacerbated and is proving out.

    *The other says it doesn't matter. Those who care will vote and the barrier is small enough to suit those holding that viewpoint.

  24. #224

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves
    Always have. Erect barriers, however low, and those with means will clear those easier than those without. Period. Thus, voter id laws will skew who votes. That's kinda always been the argument on one side.* Now we see a specific case where that's been exacerbated and is proving out.
    i'll concede that voter id laws have the potential for limiting certain individuals' access to the polls. however, as demonstrated, the specific case of closing driver's license offices doesn't have that much effect on alabama citizens' access to an acceptable form of voting id. -M

  25. #225

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    i'll concede that voter id laws have the potential for limiting certain individuals' access to the polls. however, as demonstrated, the specific case of closing driver's license offices doesn't have that much effect on alabama citizens' access to an acceptable form of voting id. -M
    On your yardstick of value, as I said above. Others' mileage varies.

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