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Thread: Voter ID Laws

  1. #151

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    Who says they wanted to be a third world country? We were 3rd world in that we were a new country. Although you fail at connecting the dots, you're at least Olympic caliber in conclusion jumping.
    Third World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3rd World Country: I don't think you understand what the term actually refers to.

  2. #152

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    I'll plead guilty to that. A better term would have been that we were a developing county. (many do incorrectly use the term 3rd world for develoiping countries however)

  3. #153

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    My opinion is, the Democrats don't want voter ID b/c they're the party that's benefitting from illegal voting.
    Which elections have been won by democrats by the margin of proven illegal voting?

  4. #154

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    How about you telling me how to prove the voting is legal if we don't have voter ID? See the problem?

  5. #155

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    How about you telling me how to prove the voting is legal if we don't have voter ID? See the problem?
    Federal law can require ID to register and there have been convictions of fraud, so it's possible.

    Either way, it's interesting that a lack of evidence for some means that 1) it's got to be happening... it's just got to! and 2) they know exactly who's benefiting from it.

    The thing is that there are other forms of fraud that happen much more often that voter ID laws don't address:



    Yet, instead, conservative politicians are addressing the one type of fraud that rarely happens. Why? I guess I could say that I just believe it's because they see it as a way of keeping 2% of likely democratic voters away from the polls, but I don't have to speculate on why because they have admitted that the laws benefit them in that way.

    Instead of taking action that has an admitted effect of suppressing eligible voters at a much greater rate than it prevents fraudulent voting, why aren't the state legislators committing more resources to better maintaining their voter registration rolls and vetting absentee ballots? That would certainly have a much greater affect of ensuring the election integrity they claim to be fighting for, but I guess they don't see any political advantage to motivate them.

  6. #156

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    First of all, there is no, none, not one single piece of proof that that the supposed "2%" would be democrat. As has been pointed out in this thread "with gleeful comments of 'karma!'", voter ID laws are just as likely to affect traditional republican voters.

    Second, the numbers of charged/accused voter fraud is skewed, since they can only charge the ones that they know about and are decently prove-able. But if there aren't laws on the books, it's hard to even accuse someone of false identity. The big piece of voter fraud that IDs will help with are ineligible voters. Considering how close races in Florida have been in recent years, and the numbers of ineligible voters that we now about (which is likely just a small percentage of the actual numbers), then it's not a terrific leap to assume that there's been some influence on races and some that may have even had their outcomes altered.

    What's amazing to me, is if voter ID's are so bad, then why haven't Democrats been throwing a fit against Hawaii, who's had voter ID laws for over half a century (that sneaky red state that is hiding as a blue state)? Or the many other states that have them?

  7. #157

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    First of all, there is no, none, not one single piece of proof that that the supposed "2%" would be democrat. As has been pointed out in this thread "with gleeful comments of 'karma!'", voter ID laws are just as likely to affect traditional republican voters.
    I'm just using the estimate provided by a supporter of Voter ID laws presented earlier. This comes from statistical estimates that line up the demographics of eligible voters without ID and their party affiliation. There's obviously a margin of error, but it's based on data. At the very least there is more data to support that estimate than the ones used to estimate voter fraud. Certainly it will affect some Republican voters as well, which, imo, doesn't really help make a case for the laws.

    What's amazing to me, is if voter ID's are so bad, then why haven't Democrats been throwing a fit against Hawaii, who's had voter ID laws for over half a century (that sneaky red state that is hiding as a blue state)? Or the many other states that have them?
    Because it hasn't hurt them there. I'm freely admitting this is all 100% politics. Nothing more. Nothing less. If it were about evidence and integrity, it would look very very different.

  8. #158

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    Because it hasn't hurt them there. I'm freely admitting this is all 100% politics. Nothing more. Nothing less. If it were about evidence and integrity, it would look very very different.
    Even if this is the case, I'd rather both sides come together and put together some sensible Voter ID laws, because it really is inevitable. I'm as pro second amendment as it gets, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that if folks on the right don't work with folks on the left to enact sensible gun laws, then worse ones are likely to pop up.

    But it's hard to work with the other side when sweeping generalizations and attacks are deployed at the first mention of voter IDs.

  9. #159

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Even if this is the case, I'd rather both sides come together and put together some sensible Voter ID laws, because it really is inevitable. I'm as pro second amendment as it gets, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that if folks on the right don't work with folks on the left to enact sensible gun laws, then worse ones are likely to pop up.

    But it's hard to work with the other side when sweeping generalizations and attacks are deployed at the first mention of voter IDs.
    Sure, that makes sense. However, the one thing that is agreed upon by all sides is that these laws affect millions of registered voters who don't have IDs. These IDs are called "free", but they are not. Supporting documents, for those who may not have them, cost between $8 and $20 to get in most places, not to mention the opportunity costs and transportation costs to get them and the ID. That certainly sounds negligible to the vast majority of voters who already have ID or have no problem finding the time and transportation to take care of it if they don't. However, in many cases, that cost is more than the poll tax in today's dollars that was ruled oppressive to democracy decades ago.

    Voter ID laws sound nice and neat and sensible on the surface, but the general consensus, even among active supporters of such laws, is that it will negatively affect millions of eligible voters, while only addressing something that isn't even alleged that much. By the estimates provided by pundits and academic studies, it will affect elections more than voter impersonation currently does. To me, that's just politically motivated and reckless legislation that doesn't have the net effect of even its principled justifications.

    I'm all for election integrity. However, all indications are that these laws work against that purpose as opposed to furthering it. If you strip out the intuitive fears of partisans and pundits, there's just not much there right now to justify it. The damage to democracy seems to way outweigh the benefit.

  10. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    A national ID card idea has been tossed around but it requires a person to supply a picture like a passport picture. Is there support to have this taxpayer funded? I know many that are against this due to privacy concerns. Would you need a new picture every 5 years or if you grew a beard?

  11. #161

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    oops. unintentionally doubled down.
    Last edited by BDP; 10-29-2014 at 12:31 PM. Reason: duplicate post

  12. #162

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Remove the "Check this box to contribute $2 to such & such campaign" on your IRS return and replace it with "check this box to contribute $2 to help fund ID purchases for those who don't have IDs"
    I know the Republicans would be checking the box. They already provide most of the needs of those same people through their income taxes.
    As for national IDs, Check out this from PBS: Biometrics and the Future of Identification ? NOVA Next | PBS

  13. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    Remove the "Check this box to contribute $2 to such & such campaign" on your IRS return and replace it with "check this box to contribute $2 to help fund ID purchases for those who don't have IDs"
    I know the Republicans would be checking the box. They already provide most of the needs of those same people through their income taxes.
    As for national IDs, Check out this from PBS: Biometrics and the Future of Identification ? NOVA Next | PBS
    Let me know when that gets done and I'll check it, but until then do you support getting ID's to vote being funded by the taxpayer?

  14. #164

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by kelroy55 View Post
    Let me know when that gets done and I'll check it, but until then do you support getting ID's to vote being funded by the taxpayer?
    Why not put it to a vote?

  15. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    Why not put it to a vote?
    Why not answer the question?

  16. #166

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    Why not put it to a vote?
    Because we don't vote on ballot access issues. Similar to the fact that we don't vote on civil rights for the minority.

  17. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Al Jazeera America?s reveals massive GOP voter suppression effort: Millions of minorities are being purged from voter rolls ahead of midterm elections.

    "Whether Republican officials are trying to nudge the electorate in the GOP’s favor is almost beside the point—since, intentions aside, that’s what’s happened. And when you take this out of its isolation chamber and put it in context—a world where Republicans want voter identification and reduced early voting and stiffer registration laws—it looks like a pattern of deliberate suppression, where some officials prune voter rolls with lists of minorities while others make it harder to vote altogether." (emphasis is not mine, it's in the original story)

  18. #168

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Because we don't vote on ballot access issues. Similar to the fact that we don't vote on civil rights for the minority.
    Not exactly a ballot access issue. This is to provide vouchers to be used for obtaining IDs. Usually it would pay the costs of getting a duplicate birth certificate.

  19. #169

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Some thoughts:

    1. No one has conclusively shown that what appears to be voter fraud has changed the outcome of any election.
    2. ID's are pretty easy to get and you generally need one for everyday life anyway.
    3. In iraq in 2004, they had elections. People came day of, voted, dipped their hand in some ink and couldnt vote more than once. I fail to see how the largest economy in the world can't figure out something so simple.

  20. #170

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    Not exactly a ballot access issue. This is to provide vouchers to be used for obtaining IDs. Usually it would pay the costs of getting a duplicate birth certificate.
    Nice dodge.

    Answer the question please. Would you support having the taxpayers pay for voter IDs and supporting document costs?

  21. Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Chadanth View Post
    Some thoughts:

    1. No one has conclusively shown that what appears to be voter fraud has changed the outcome of any election.
    2. ID's are pretty easy to get and you generally need one for everyday life anyway.
    3. In iraq in 2004, they had elections. People came day of, voted, dipped their hand in some ink and couldnt vote more than once. I fail to see how the largest economy in the world can't figure out something so simple.
    Regarding #2, they're not that easy to get if you're poor, you don't have a bank account (apparently 10 million Americans don't have one, that surprised me), you don't have a car or driver's license, you work 2 or 3 jobs and can't get to the offices to get an ID during 9-5, etc. Yes, it's do-able, but lots of folks in those kinds of situations just won't go to the trouble or expense of getting one when it won't really gain them anything (most likely how they see it) and they haven't needed one yet.

    I wonder how these kinds of folks that don't have IDs valid for voting get jobs, though, since I thought the I-9 form had to be filled out for every job, and that requires some sort of ID...

  22. #172

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Regarding #2, they're not that easy to get if you're poor, you don't have a bank account (apparently 10 million Americans don't have one, that surprised me), you don't have a car or driver's license, you work 2 or 3 jobs and can't get to the offices to get an ID during 9-5, etc. Yes, it's do-able, but lots of folks in those kinds of situations just won't go to the trouble or expense of getting one when it won't really gain them anything (most likely how they see it) and they haven't needed one yet.

    I wonder how these kinds of folks that don't have IDs valid for voting get jobs, though, since I thought the I-9 form had to be filled out for every job, and that requires some sort of ID...
    Again, you need an id for so much in daily life. Over the course of a year, its really not that hard to get one. I would like to see the state ID option provided for free, though.

  23. #173

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Sorry. Stating that I "dodged" something is a slur on my integrity and I don't play kid games with people who do that and also don't have the reading comprehension skills to understand a reply.
    Today, 04:22 PM
    Cid
    Participating Member
    This message is hidden because Cid is on your ignore list.

  24. #174

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by stick47 View Post
    Sorry. Stating that I "dodged" something is a slur on my integrity and I don't play kid games with people who do that and also don't have the reading comprehension skills to understand a reply.
    Oh! You replied alright. But you did not answer the question... like I said (which you cut out of the quote).

  25. #175

    Default Re: Voter ID Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Cid View Post
    Oh! You replied alright. But you did not answer the question... like I said (which you cut out of the quote).
    For the rude and reading impaired, see post #162

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