Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
lol at anyone that acts like the rents at the Spaniard can be supported but think we can't support a store that can sell me an actual modern suit or shirt not made in china, or sustainably produced officewear basics, or like can even move in to 2005 with a Crate and Barrel.
You guys are funny
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
As much as what you are saying makes sense, you leave out the fact that most younger generations make purchases online. Younger affluent generations are less likely to shop on-site at a store. Even our local small boutique stores in the Plaza and Midtown have told me they often sell more online than they do in-store. Most of the people in lower generations can not afford the brands you talk about. Yes, Urban Outfitters is outdated, but even if it was still a hip spot, no one who wears that style could afford it. Your statements only make you sound like someone with less experience and knowledge about retail markets.Originally Posted by EBAH
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
I just looked up Everlane that you mentioned earlier.....
They have 11 worldwide locations. 11. They are in:
Georgetown
King of Prussia
Prince Street, New York
Brooklyn
Boston
Austin
LA
Palo Alto
San Francisco
Seattle
Tysons Corner
And, THIS is a place you are upset we don't have in OKC? LOL. Dude, c'mon.
Again, it's great that shopping at the niche/trendy/young places is your thing. But, at this point you are far better off taking pride in the fact that you are a unique style in OKC versus being upset that OKC doesn't have a store that about 50 people in the city would actually shop at. Just saying. Enjoy your trips to Austin to buy your clothes, and enjoy that you are a "cut above" in the city where you live. In fact you should want no part of those stores here because then all your peers will dress just like you and do you really want that? lol
BTW, I live near the beach and love wearing linen now. So, thanks for the head's up. lol. I'll probably pick up some stuff from their online store. Looks nice.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
Everlane is also dirt cheap. The fact he is including them in his posts is a shame.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
Actually that was my wife, lol
and I'm glad you found the one that is mostly an online brand to pick at, again, you guys are funny
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
ok so there are a few things of note here, and really I won't be snarky about it.
1) Yes there are reasons. Obviously our national political perception is pretty problematic, and is a factor. But mostly I do think it is partially that the developer hasn't made the case well enough and it is coupled with a pretty out-dated perception of the market.
2) While most people 'In OKC' live in suburbs, nearly all of the large amount of growth the metro area saw during the covid years was centered around the city proper and urban core. Thing is I have been a home owner in the inner city for nearly 20 years and the growth both in numbers and in property value and income level in the urban core compared to many suburbs (with the glaring exception being the runaway monster that is deer creek) has been enormous. This city is, in fact, much more urban than it was in the white flight, post Penn square city that many of us in this forum grew up in
3) While we do still have a significant brain drain in the young, a lot of them are coming back too, many in the key target demos of mid tier retailers, and many to live in the city proper. Sure after they went and started carreers in other cities and going to schools in other cities and coming back with tastes and things they take for granted from other cities.
I'm a snarky person, and sure, my punctuation could be better (have you written a few hundred words impulsively on a phone recently, sheesh it sucks) but my point is a very real one and it is a category that should be taken a bit more seriously. I do think the failure is largely in the hands of developers and who they are courting for this project, but I could also be very wrong. I'm mostly just expressing my disappointment with watching a large scale, attractive retail park being built, a thing I personally would enjoy and use regularly (I live like 3 minutes away) and then reading the list of announcements only to see nothing at all.
These really are far more common brands than you think, and the general culture, styling and expectations of retailers has changed a lot too. I just don't see any of that in this new project and I really hope it gets better. I'm sure there are still a lot of bays to fill and I'm sure there is still a lot of possibility.
But man, having lived in this town my whole life, can't we just get passed the immediate response of everything is good enough.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
I don't want to look back at all this nonsense to see if you actually named the retailers besides Nordstrom that you are speaking of. Please lay down the knowledge you have on what retailers would thrive here that are not here yet but are doing well in other similar markets. Thanks!
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
The problem isn't with the developer, the problem lies with the retailer. Look at Costco, Anthropologie, Trader Joe's, just to name a few. They all went to Tulsa first because the demographics in the area supported it. Then, when they decided to open in OKC, all expected projections were blown out of the water in terms of success. The Chamber is always looking to add new retailers to OKC, there is a person who does just that.
So, don't blame the developer for what you perceive as them not doing a good enough job, when it is really the retailer that is turning down the chance to be in OKC. I know if a Louis Vuitton store came to OKC, it would do really well. Do you think developers and the Chamber haven't reached out to them to get them to come to OKC? Or is it more likely they have been reached out to and have said no?
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
If Louis Vuitton (or Prada or Gucci or whoever) come here and sell a nice OU outfit (or maybe Thunder), let me know. I will go see if I can afford it (or more to the point, if I want to pay that much for it). I bet it would look great on me!
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
Yes, but this is the outdated perception I'm talking about. The Tulsa market has long been the first to market for retail, due to it's proximity to a lot of small markets in Arkansas and Southern Missouri as well as a wealthy population in Tulsa itself, and further distance from a first tier shopping market in Dallas, but as time has passed Oklahoma City has grown MUCH more than Tulsa and clearly now has a lot of demographics on it's side.
But what I'm talking about is mid tier offerings that are becoming common in middle income but thriving metros much like ours. I do think an LV store may do ok here, but I'm really talking about clothing brands and retailers that are more like what Whole Foods represented, not things that are unaffordable but things that are actually quite atainable but represent a more modern and younger sector of the market that we have grown significantly in, but haven't seen the retail keep up with. It is easy for us to visibly have the support for a store who's own target demo is a 55+ white male in a 6 figure household, but I don't think a lot of the growth we've had here the last few years are households like that and I don't think the data visible from outside the state shows that either.
I'm not like beating up on the developer and I said just now, maybe that's not at all the problem, again, I've just been looking for updates and it's just been like, aww man, this is just stuff we already have covered with redundancy in our market.
The point wasn't to point fingers, the point was to say, it's a bummer that this huge flag ship type development hasn't attracted any real fresh blood in to the market, it was to say, it's a bummer that all the progress we've had over the last several years is still not translating to modern retail brands wanting to expand in to this market. (and then yes being responded to by, what do you mean we already have all the good stuff, was pretty irritating)
Owner / Administrator
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
This is a completely false narrative (Tulsa gets stores first) that is easily disproven:
OKC v. Tulsa Retail
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
lol none of this is young and trendy, I am 43 years old, I am a product designer and I've never lived outside of Oklahoma City,
This is a list of most popular mens brands from Mens Health a VERY mainstream magazine ....
https://www.menshealth.com/style/g35...othing-brands/
hmmm recognize any of these brands?
Also if you like Linen basics, Everlane's offerings are actually pretty poorly made, but both Buck Mason and Todd Snyder make excellent linen garments that are very modern, some even made in first world countries. If you REALLY want good linen clothes, go with Georgia (you live there not here right?) based Sid Mashburn
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
Actually, I completely agree Pete, it hasn't been true in a long time which was the point I was making, it used to be true, but it hasn't been in a while. OKC is absolutely the choice destination these days and will be from here to come, which is why, again, I am disappointed to see the list for Oak
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
You're calling OAK a strikeout before it even steps up to the plate. It has announced 3 new to market retailers/restaurants that are present in all of the cities you had brought up. So the fact they got them for OKC, by your own criteria, should make it a success. But you keep moving goalposts to always make it a failure.
Owner / Administrator
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
I know the developer of OAK well and we've even had several conversations about the retailers they should target. He gave me a long list of new-to-market, upscale stores that have already declined and I suggested a few more to try.
Just like Classen Curve, they know the universe of desired retailers and they hit them all and make their best pitch. It should go without saying that of course they ALL want the most high-end stores they can possibly attract and it's not like a general consumer is going to be aware of stores they don't already have on their respective prospecting lists.
CC has brought in a ton of new, national retailers and OAK has already announced several more and they have about 20 more to announce over the next year and beyond. Chisholm Creek is working that same long, list as are a ton of other developments and developers.
Also, I was a commercial real estate broker in OKC specializing in retail properties for almost a decade. Every single broker here -- like I once did -- actively solicits stores and restaurants that are not yet in this market. It's a big part of how they make their living. The City and State also have dedicated employees who do nothing but try and recruit these businesses. Developers, brokers, and economic development staff work on this 24/7 and even go to national conventions to have meetings and make relationships. As one of hundreds examples, there were tons of people involved in bringing Costco to OKC and that included their local broker (who is a former colleague) and about 10 years of work, where they put a property under LOI, backed out, came back and then took forever to ink the final deal.
One of the reasons that OKCTalk is first to report on almost anything new coming to town is because of my background, experience, and connections in the retail and commercial real estate community.
So, the idea that developers, brokers, economic development staff and the general public are somehow not motivated to get all these things you want is simply and emphatically preposterous.
This has been and will continue to be an ongoing process and you will never know any part of that until a deal is done. And I can almost guarantee you that any single retailer you desire has been approached to come to OKC dozens of times and from many angles.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
In OAK, the retailers that have been announced so far are:
Capital Grille
Restoration Hardware
Arhaus
Pottery Barn
Williams Sonoma
Tommy Bahama
Mesero
Of those, CG, Arhaus, Tommy Bahama Marlin Bar and Mesero are all new to Oklahoma. Tulsa has WS, RH and WS. So, 4 out of 7 are new the state, let alone the city. And this thing is supposed to be 250,000 sf of retail space. I am not sure how much those seven take up, but there is so much more to go...
Owner / Administrator
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
^
You'll see about another 10-15 new-to-market retailers at OAK in the near future.
And the list at Classen Curve is already quite long and they are just now starting construction to expand.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
Oh for sure, yeah I was assuming as much, like I said my frustration was not with people or developers or orgs, it's with the realities of the market and the perception of the city itself. It's with the big announcements being brands we already have covered well that represent the past and not the future. Most of my snarkiness in this thread is clearly aimed at being told basic a$$ mall brands are too trendy or unique for the largest city in Oklahoma where they are 1000% already popular and already on the mind of the public.
I do think that Oak is the first genuinely exciting development, and first one that actually looks up to par with larger market 'lifestyle centers' or whatever we call them now, that we've had in this city in a VERY long time. I know good people are working on it and to be fair to me I literally said, I may be wrong in the case of OAK. I love so so much about the details and appearance of this project. It's just as a consumer and not a crazy edgy one, but a very urban one, the announcements so far have been massively disappointing considering the budget, scale and ambition. So much of our retail developments still feel like playing catch up and I'm still very hopeful this is changing little by little.
Like I said, I know there are a lot of bays left to be leased and I'm excited to see what comes next. I just really hope it gets better. Because yes, in my dreams, I'd like to be able to try on the next suit I have to buy for a wedding, without having to drive out of State like I literally just did a few weeks ago.
Owner / Administrator
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
^
You are not giving enough credit to Classen Curve. Almost every single store has turned over in just the last five years and virtually every current tenant is a nice, new-to-market store. This is directly due to Washington Prime buying the property and bringing their national relationships to bear.
And similarly, newish RH Galleries with a rooftop restaurant have been smash hits in tony parts of Chicago and Dallas. It's going to be a big deal here. Arhaus is very upscale. I don't like Tommy Bahama but I bet their bar and restaurant will be a cool and fun spot.
The best way to get the high-end stores is for them to see others succeeding here. That is a long process, especially given our starting point which was almost zero.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
This is sort of besides the main point of this thread, but this just isn't true. Of course the core has seen a major renaissance, home values have skyrocketed (even relative to the more general increase during Covid), etc. But population wise, the large amount (majority?) of the city/metro's growth in the last 10-15 years has been in the western suburbs of eastern Canadian County. These graphics (from https://data.oklahoman.com/census/to...p)—sorry, I couldn't figure out how to show both counties at once, but the scales are the same—make that clear. While Oklahoma County did experience a larger increase in absolute population, a lot of that growth was in Edmond/Deer Creek.
Oklahoma County total population change [%] (2010-2020)
Oklahoma County total housing units change [%] (2010-2020)
Canadian County total population change [%] (2010-2020)
Canadian County total housing units change [%] (2010-2020)
Total population change:
Canadian County: ~39k (+33.6%)
Oklahoma County ~77k (+10.8%)
During the Covid years you cite, I could only find county-level data (rather than census tracks). But using Oklahoma vs. Canadian Counties as rough proxies, between 2020 and 2023 Oklahoma County grew by ~12,000 while Canadian County grew by ~22,000.
There are complicated reasons for this that don't mean to take away from the strides the urban core has made (smaller family sizes, shifting core age demographics, etc). And the census data isn't perfect. But it is unequivocally not the case that all of the city's recent growth is in the core at the expense of the suburbs.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
This is absolutely fair, Washington Prime has made Classen Curve the best for sure, it is honestly by a mile, the only shopping center in OKC that I regularly buy things from. I mean again, it wasn't really that I wasn't giving them enough credit, I was simply stating that the announcements of Oak were dissapointing, and that our department stores are pretty bad. I think Classen Curve has been a definite glimmer of hope. I still think the larger department store issue is a significant one and I will hold out a dream of having something along the lines of a Nordstrom or Saint Bernard or like, man, something, I mean, I'm not asking for a Neimans or anything, just something with ANY newer product lines. I know the RH will be very popular and so will the Tommy Bahama, as will the restaurants, but they are all kind of disappointingly on brand for OKC so far and I hope to aspire to be better or at least to be growing in scale and in vision.
I will also say YES Arhaus is a great get and the absolutely most encouraging of the list. It's definitely a sign that the concept is facing in the right direction for me for sure. I Will gladly go when it is openned.
Owner / Administrator
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
They are both big steps in the right direction.
You can't get to where you want OKC to be without these types of moves.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
You were thinking that OKC would skip RH and Arhaus and go directly to Gucci, Prada and Fendi?
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
Shout out Value Village Thrift Store in Del City. Them threads are built to last.
Participating Member
Re: OAK (formerly Penn Central)
I think we need more of the ultra-high end brands like Nike, Callaway, and Polo... Or even the tier under that, like Walter Hagen, Adidas, and Reebok.
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