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  1. #1

    Default The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Felt that this deserves its own thread.

    Here are some facts and figures:

    Located at U.S. 75 and 61st Street

    Opens summer 2016

    Official design and size isn't set yet, but expect it to be similar to Allen Premium Outlets in DFW, but will likely be smaller

    Will be owned and operated by Simon Properties; who also own a ton of enclosed and outdoor malls and outlet shops across the country. They announced it at International Council of Shopping Centers’ Oklahoma Idea Exchange at the Skirvin Hilton Hotel in Oklahoma City on Tuesday.

    They also own Woodland Hills Mall and Penn Square.

    Here is the proposed location



    Also, here is a picture of the one in Dallas they are modeling from


    - New upscale outlet mall planned for west Tulsa - Tulsa World: Real Estate

    - http://horizongroup.com/Post/section...ulsa%20LOW.pdf

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    That rendering looks nice.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerguru View Post
    That rendering looks nice.
    That second picture is not a rendering.

    http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/sm...-outlets%C2%AE

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Your facts are wrong. Horizon group owns the okc outlet and that's the map you are showing. Premium Outlets are owed by Simon. They are the ones building off of hw75.




    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    Felt that this deserves its own thread.

    Here are some facts and figures:

    Located at U.S. 75 and 61st Street

    Opens summer 2016

    Official design and size isn't set yet, but expect it to be similar to Allen Premium Outlets in DFW, but will likely be smaller

    Will be owned and operated by Simon Properties; who also own a ton of enclosed and outdoor malls and outlet shops across the country. They announced it at International Council of Shopping Centers’ Oklahoma Idea Exchange at the Skirvin Hilton Hotel in Oklahoma City on Tuesday.

    They also own Woodland Hills Mall and Penn Square as well as the Outlet Shoppes of OKC.

    Here is the proposed location



    Also, here is a picture of the one in Dallas they are modeling from


    - New upscale outlet mall planned for west Tulsa - Tulsa World: Real Estate

    - http://horizongroup.com/Post/section...ulsa%20LOW.pdf

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    It's going closer to Catoosa then BA. Premium outlets coming to Oklahoma is a big deal. They have a major pull in the retail industry. They are in just about every major market. The only way two outlets will work in Tulsa is if the one on 44 is just like the one in Oklahoma City. And the one on 75 has more premium anchors which will be easy for Simon. To make things more confusing Tanger outlet is marketing Tulsa also. I have no idea where they are wanting to locate in the metro. Tulsa is the most underserved market in the country for outlets that's why everybody is trying to move in. We will see what happens.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by In_Tulsa View Post
    Your facts are wrong. Horizon group owns the okc outlet and that's the map you are showing. Premium Outlets are owed by Simon. They are the ones building off of hw75.



    Correct. The was error on my part. I don't know where I got that from. I fixed it.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by In_Tulsa View Post
    It's going closer to Catoosa then BA. Premium outlets coming to Oklahoma is a big deal. They have a major pull in the retail industry. They are in just about every major market. The only way two outlets will work in Tulsa is if the one on 44 is just like the one in Oklahoma City. And the one on 75 has more premium anchors which will be easy for Simon. To make things more confusing Tanger outlet is marketing Tulsa also. I have no idea where they are wanting to locate in the metro. Tulsa is the most underserved market in the country for outlets that's why everybody is trying to move in. We will see what happens.
    ummmmm.... I already responded to this copy and paste is a useful feature I suppose.


    I guess I'll do the same thing.

    "We will see. If two outlet malls happen in Tulsa, it will be a fun show to watch. All I'm going to say on that.

    Let me also add this since some people know I don't like Tulsa and understand I'm not just trying to bash Tulsa by that statement, I don't even think OKC could support two outlet malls, and OKC is larger and growing much faster than Tulsa."

    To add to that, I bet once this outlet mall is built, any other competition who was looking at Tulsa will likely back out.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by In_Tulsa View Post
    It's going closer to Catoosa then BA. Premium outlets coming to Oklahoma is a big deal. They have a major pull in the retail industry. They are in just about every major market. The only way two outlets will work in Tulsa is if the one on 44 is just like the one in Oklahoma City. And the one on 75 has more premium anchors which will be easy for Simon. To make things more confusing Tanger outlet is marketing Tulsa also. I have no idea where they are wanting to locate in the metro. Tulsa is the most underserved market in the country for outlets that's why everybody is trying to move in. We will see what happens.
    Two outlets in Tulsa? Yeah, I don't see this working out for one of these properties. I guess they can always turn the empty one into a Life Church or something LOL.

    Even one outlet would be rather limited in it's potential area considering there are malls in OKC and Branson. These will be largely dependent on local traffic. And there's only so many dollars in this market.

    I had to look and see where there are two outlet malls in such close proximity and the only ones I found were in St. Louis, a much bigger market BTW. And just like I thought, one is appears to be struggling. A victor is emerging in Chesterfield outlet mall duel : Business

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    Two outlets in Tulsa? Yeah, I don't see this working out for one of these properties. I guess they can always turn the empty one into a Life Church or something LOL.
    That's funny. The old "Outlet Mall of America" location in Broken Arrow from the '80's is now the Church at Battle Creek.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Two Outlets in tulsa might not work, one will ruin the other. I said this in another thread, but I wonder what' they'll do with promenade seeing as most people wouldn't want to go there with Utica, Woodland Hills and the Outlet mall(s) around

  11. Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    I don't think anyone sees two outlet malls surviving in Tulsa. And Promenade = doomed, I tell you.

    The location is terrible. I'm not sure they could have chosen a worse place to be. Can you be more out of the line of traffic?

    I'm the first to admit that the west OKC location can be seen as not too hot, but that's only on the surface. It's prime traffic being on I-40, which is more heavily traveled than 44. It's the first mall on the west side for Yukon/Mustang traffic. It's near a booming Westgate Marketplace that has seriously taken off in the last 5 years. But 244/44 on the north Tulsa side....yeah not much is happening there....ever.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    ^
    To expand on that point, they are obviously trying to capture some highway thru-traffic with their locations.

    The traffic counts are probably not the best guide since you have a lot of commuter traffic influencing these. If you can measure this just outside the sphere of exurban commuters you can get a better idea of how much traffic is really flowing.

    I-40 just west of the Highway 81 exit in El Reno has an AADT of 30K. The turner turnpike at the Sapulpa entrance has an AADT around 15K. The confluence of the Cherokee and Will Rogers Turnpikes has about 19K combined.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    I don't think anyone sees two outlet malls surviving in Tulsa. And Promenade = doomed, I tell you.

    The location is terrible. I'm not sure they could have chosen a worse place to be. Can you be more out of the line of traffic?

    I'm the first to admit that the west OKC location can be seen as not too hot, but that's only on the surface. It's prime traffic being on I-40, which is more heavily traveled than 44. It's the first mall on the west side for Yukon/Mustang traffic. It's near a booming Westgate Marketplace that has seriously taken off in the last 5 years. But 244/44 on the north Tulsa side....yeah not much is happening there....ever.
    I think they are banking on synergy with Tulsa Hills and making Hwy 75 into more of a retail corridor for west Tulsa metro. 75 is the main thoroughfare for the growing areas of southwest Tulsa, Jenks and Glenpool. As the highway gets upgraded in south Tulsa County it will be a major corridor like the BA Expressway (Hwy 51). There is not much there now but in 10 years it could be full of new development like what has happened around the Creek turnpike. The good thing for Tulsa is that it's all in city limits so the tax revenue doesn't escape to suburbs.

  14. Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    But that's all in SOUTH Tulsa, right? This thing is waaaay far North Tulsa. Just being on 75 doesn't mean you're in the right place. I-35 can either be 19th st in Moore, or NE OKC where there isn't squat.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    But that's all in SOUTH Tulsa, right? This thing is waaaay far North Tulsa. Just being on 75 doesn't mean you're in the right place. I-35 can either be 19th st in Moore, or NE OKC where there isn't squat.
    There is the one proposed for Admiral Blvd and 129th East Ave, that's more east Tulsa than north. It's getting close to Catoosa out there. It's a mile east of US169 with easy access to Owasso, Catoosa, Claremore and southeast Tulsa/Broken Arrow. It really has pretty easy access to midtown too via I-244.

    The other one they are talking about here is 61st and US-75 in southwest Tulsa, no where close to north Tulsa. All these west Tulsa shopping centers are convenient to south Tulsa and midtown by taking I-44 or south Tulsa via the Creek over to US-75 and you are there. It's not more than 10 to at most 15 minutes away from anywhere in midtown, south Tulsa, Jenks, Glenpool Sapulpa or Bixby.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa


  17. #17

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    I don't think anyone sees two outlet malls surviving in Tulsa. And Promenade = doomed, I tell you.
    The location is terrible. I'm not sure they could have chosen a worse place to be. Can you be more out of the line of traffic?
    You must not know the history of that area. In the early 60's, Southland was built on the SE corner of 41st and Yale as Tulsa's first truly open air mall (where you couldn't park in from of every store like at Utica Square). Soon after, Southroads was built across the street (first enclosed mall). Southland thrived until Woodland Hills was built. Even after that, it was the fact it was open air (just like Penn Square) meant many didn't want to shop there. The owners (IIRC Simon Group) enclosed it, added a second story and a new wing (again, just like Penn Square). This opened in 1986. At that time, this was still a very thriving retail area with easy access to/from I44.

    IMO, what has killed Promenade has been the dreadful parking situation. I worked there for 2 years right after it re-opened and there was many a time I had to park all the way down by the McDonalds. Shoopers would cruise fruitlessly looking for parking, even when it wasn't Christmas. I know they added the garage, but that was too little, too late.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by rte66man View Post
    You must not know the history of that area. In the early 60's, Southland was built on the SE corner of 41st and Yale as Tulsa's first truly open air mall (where you couldn't park in from of every store like at Utica Square). Soon after, Southroads was built across the street (first enclosed mall). Southland thrived until Woodland Hills was built. Even after that, it was the fact it was open air (just like Penn Square) meant many didn't want to shop there. The owners (IIRC Simon Group) enclosed it, added a second story and a new wing (again, just like Penn Square). This opened in 1986. At that time, this was still a very thriving retail area with easy access to/from I44.

    IMO, what has killed Promenade has been the dreadful parking situation. I worked there for 2 years right after it re-opened and there was many a time I had to park all the way down by the McDonalds. Shoopers would cruise fruitlessly looking for parking, even when it wasn't Christmas. I know they added the garage, but that was too little, too late.
    Promenade isn't dead, and parking is easy with the two garages. The big one is rarely full at all and stretches from Macy's to Dillard's.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Quote Originally Posted by silvergrove View Post
    As they should since this is literally next to one of the last large wilderness areas in the city, and is a popular place for hiking and biking.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa


  21. #21

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Since the Cherokees are behind it I give it the best shot at actually happening. I think if it goes that effectively kills the other proposed east Tulsa project and possibly the Simon deal in west Tulsa too. The Simon project by 75 has been getting a lot of negative publicity because of its location by Turkey Mountain, and I just don't see the ROI for what you would have to invest in site development in that area.

  22. Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Agreed...Cherokees get theirs done, and the others will fall.

  23. #23

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Well if the point of the outlet mall was to shore up sales tax in Tulsa much like the one in OKC has, then the Catoosa proposal is bad news. I don't know if they will build this on Indian Trust land but if they do then it would be free of any sales tax requirements. And even if they did collect tax, this is in Catoosa so Tulsa sees no benefit. I tend to agree this has the best chance of succeeding, but for whom?

  24. #24

    Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    It's definitely not good for Tulsa sales tax revenue since it's in Catoosa. Though if their claims of generating 1,000 jobs are real then it would have a positive impact on the northeast metro. I guess it will be a race to see who starts first

    I wouldn't be surprised to see the Creeks to now announce some kind of big retail project. Anything the Cherokees do they have to one-up them. Though if it's a Riverwalk Crossing that would be in Jenks..

  25. Default Re: The Outlet Shoppes at Tulsa

    Exactlly...tax free. How do you think people in the Tulsa area are going to see that? There are probably legal things to work out for the customers (like are you supposed to pay thoses taxes back at the end of the year like with online purchases, etc). But if I had a choice between a tax free and a taxed facility....duh, where am I going to go?

    Don't be so sure on the Creek thing though. I've heard conversations from the CEO of the Creek tribe before where he's said "They don't need jobs". If only that had been recorded. So while other Oklahoma groups are trying to partner with them, they don't seem too interested in it.

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