Spring Creek Plaza

[WheelerD Guy]

Folks are absolutely entitled to disturb the zoning of land which belongs to a third party even when that party has secured capital and lawfully changed the historical zoning at the Council. It is completely their right to circulate a referendum and submit the issue to a vote of the people.

I'm sure the developer turned a profit on the land.

I wasn't saying the law prohibits referendums
Only that you have to be a bit entitled and privileged
To deem your own judgment to be superior
To that of the City Council

[Midtowner]

This was the right decision. There's a lot of emotion tied of in Hafer park, and developments near it are always going to be contentious. If the land isn't going to be developed, it should be added to the cities park system.

Maybe in a year's time, we can see another referendum centered around a sales tax to redevelop Hafar Park. I'd like to see Edmond have some kind of a "grand lawn" larger than Shannon Miller (formerly Liberty) Park. There's not a great venue for mid to large size public gatherings and events and with no housing backing directly up to it, this new potential park land, assuming parking and access can be figured out, could be a great addition to the city.

[Midtowner]

I wasn't saying the law prohibits referendums
Only that you have to be a bit entitled and privileged
To deem your own judgment to be superior
To that of the City Council

Well, when a citizen can circulate a referendum and submit it to the vote of the people, they are absolutely entitled and privileged to do so. 'Merica.

[Plutonic Panda]

Especially considering this passed with over 80% voting yes. That's a clear sign to the council.

I wonder how many of those people who in favor for this even knew about what was proposed there or the background behind this question. But it’s a given if you place funding for parks or schools on an Edmond question it’ll get voted in the majority of the time so it’s no surprise here.

[Plutonic Panda]

Why are you calling these folks bigots? These residents just wanted to save an extremely heavily wooded area as part of a park for generations to come. I don't see any problem with that whatsoever. Edmond is huge and has lots of places already cleared off where developments can be built without having to clear off a mini "forest" that's there. An overwhelming percentage of residents did not want it developed, so I'm not sure why these are bad people. I think it's great the citizens have recognized a way to get done what they want in their community and they did so successfully.

Hafer is already a big park that is in need of repair anyways. The only reason this proposal happened was to block development, that is the driving force behind this question. Not because we have some passionate citizens who to see more parks in the city. It’s people who want to live in their own little bubble in a white suburban middle class community and that’s the way it needs to stay. Edmond is changing for the better slowly but you still get nonsense like this because Edmondnites are afraid of apartments.

[Richard at Remax]

$180,000+/acre for land they don't know what they are going to do with it or have funding for. 0 chance this stays temporary.

[MagzOK]

Hafer is already a big park that is in need of repair anyways. The only reason this proposal happened was to block development, that is the driving force behind this question. Not because we have some passionate citizens who to see more parks in the city. It’s people who want to live in their own little bubble in a white suburban middle class community and that’s the way it needs to stay. Edmond is changing for the better slowly but you still get nonsense like this because Edmondnites are afraid of apartments.

That's quite an assumption! You know, I'm fine with allowing folks to get a say in what they want built around them. Okay, I'm not going to go any further since you're making it a race issue. Take care.

[Plutonic Panda]

That's quite an assumption! You know, I'm fine with allowing folks to get a say in what they want built around them. Okay, I'm not going to go any further since you're making it a race issue. Take care.

They did get a say originally. They didn’t like the fact they didn’t get their way, so they spread misinformation, and then took the question to the voters bypassing the people the city elected to represent them and relied on low voter turnouts in a city that is historically anti development to stop what might have been the nicest shopping center in the state.

Every development that is proposed has to go through a formal process that allows for citizens to make their voice heard. No one here is saying the citizens shouldn’t be able to have a say in what goes next to them. Even before this they had one of the biggest municipal parks in the city and maybe even the entire state next to them. Again this isn’t about parks or simply wanting to have a voice. It’s just straight up NIMBYism.

Anyways the battle is won on their part. Good for them. There will always be someone like Midtowner at every single corner of the city who will argue this development shouldn’t be built because it’ll hurt my property values and I’d rather see a park here instead. Hopefully that crap won’t happen again but Edmond is only voting against its best interests. That become proven once national developers start proposing real high end developments around the metro and pass up Edmond given its reputation as an anti development city.

[Rover]

They did get a say originally. They didn’t like the fact they didn’t get their way, so they spread misinformation, and then took the question to the voters bypassing the people the city elected to represent them and relied on low voter turnouts in a city that is historically anti development to stop what might have been the nicest shopping center in the state.

Every development that is proposed has to go through a formal process that allows for citizens to make their voice heard. No one here is saying the citizens shouldn’t be able to have a say in what goes next to them. Even before this they had one of the biggest municipal parks in the city and maybe even the entire state next to them. Again this isn’t about parks or simply wanting to have a voice. It’s just straight up NIMBYism.

Anyways the battle is won on their part. Good for them. There will always be someone like Midtowner at every single corner of the city who will argue this development shouldn’t be built because it’ll hurt my property values and I’d rather see a park here instead. Hopefully that crap won’t happen again but Edmond is only voting against its best interests. That become proven once national developers start proposing real high end developments around the metro and pass up Edmond given its reputation as an anti development city.

It sure seems to be growing a lot for being anti development.

[Plutonic Panda]

It sure seems to be growing a lot for being anti development.

Yeah cookie cutter subdivisions and strip malls. How appealing.

[WheelerD Guy]

Yeah cookie cutter subdivisions and strip malls. How appealing.

+1.

There is a large cadre
Of Local CRE Developers who
Have completely written off Edmond
And are investing 9 figures elsewhere in the MSA
Very smart move by those Devs

[jerrywall]

I'm sure we're missing out on all those potential UNPs...

[Midtowner]

That become proven once national developers start proposing real high end developments around the metro and pass up Edmond given its reputation as an anti development city.

I'm sure the high end developers will check in with the developers of single story strip malls before they do anything.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm sure the high end developers will check in with the developers of single story strip malls before they do anything.

I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make.

[Midtowner]

I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make.

High end developments are going to happen. Edmond real estate is in extremely high demand. If developers show up with exciting plans that people want in the community, they'll be very successful. A high end developer with a winning plan isn't going to care that the citizens blocked some generic multifamily trash that was built to self-destruct in 20 years.

[jerrywall]

^^ Exactly.

I'm also curious what all those non strip mall, world class, high end developments that are happening all around the metro and skipping Edmond are... because outside of the various districts, I can't seem to think of any besides Chisholm Creek, which is still a bunch of parking next to Top Golf with a lot of potential. Developers will go where the traffic and customers are.

The type of retail developments I'm interested in are things like the Ice House district near downtown, the larger downtown vision, the stuff planned around Stephenson park, etc. Things like the developments at Covell and Sooner are like Chisholm Creek - potential and might be nice someday. And, as much as I was interested in the original Spring Creek plan, at the end of the day they didn't actually have a movie theater committed (at least that they shared), and how is that Chisholm Creek movie theater coming? And some unnamed grocery as well... (woop!), some retail, and some apartments. They didn't have a solid, serious plan. Just a lot of promises. It COULD have turned out nice, or, (and more likely given Covid) it would have been barely built, and now sitting with tons of empty space. So it's not like we missed out on some world class development. It was never going to be that.

[Richard at Remax]

^^ Exactly.

I'm also curious what all those non strip mall, world class, high end developments that are happening all around the metro and skipping Edmond are... because outside of the various districts, I can't seem to think of any besides Chisholm Creek, which is still a bunch of parking next to Top Golf with a lot of potential. Developers will go where the traffic and customers are.

The type of retail developments I'm interested in are things like the Ice House district near downtown, the larger downtown vision, the stuff planned around Stephenson park, etc. Things like the developments at Covell and Sooner are like Chisholm Creek - potential and might be nice someday. And, as much as I was interested in the original Spring Creek plan, at the end of the day they didn't actually have a movie theater committed (at least that they shared), and how is that Chisholm Creek movie theater coming? And some unnamed grocery as well... (woop!), some retail, and some apartments. They didn't have a solid, serious plan. Just a lot of promises. It COULD have turned out nice, or, (and more likely given Covid) it would have been barely built, and now sitting with tons of empty space. So it's not like we missed out on some world class development. It was never going to be that.

I think you are way underselling Chisholm Creek. It's not just top golf anymore. Go there almost any night of the week and any time on the weekends. It's a machine. It may not tickle everyone's design fancy, but there is no doubt they are bringing in the right types of businesses that consumers are looking for.

[jerrywall]

I think you are way underselling Chisholm Creek. It's not just top golf anymore. Go there almost any night of the week and any time on the weekends. It's a machine. It may not tickle everyone's design fancy, but there is no doubt they are bringing in the right types of businesses that consumers are looking for.

You're right, and I am being a little harsh. They do have some cool stuff, but it still, at least to me, doesn't seem to be coming close yet to it's potential, or the promise I saw in the early days. I live just about a mile from it, so I do get down there fairly regularly, but I'm still not super impressed. It's about as walkable as a typical strip mall, and so while it does have some great restaurants, and a few areas are pretty, and it works as a great venue for coffee and cars, I still don't feel like it's some impressive, first of it's kind in the state type development that some people hold it out to be.

And yeah, it's certainly successful as far as consumers are concerned. That being said, if someone can't make money along Memorial Road between Penn and Western, with the traffic counts there, something is wrong.

[WheelerD Guy]

^^ Exactly.

I'm also curious what all those non strip mall, world class, high end developments that are happening all around the metro and skipping Edmond are... because outside of the various districts, I can't seem to think of any besides Chisholm Creek, which is still a bunch of parking next to Top Golf with a lot of potential. Developers will go where the traffic and customers are.

The type of retail developments I'm interested in are things like the Ice House district near downtown, the larger downtown vision, the stuff planned around Stephenson park, etc. Things like the developments at Covell and Sooner are like Chisholm Creek - potential and might be nice someday. And, as much as I was interested in the original Spring Creek plan, at the end of the day they didn't actually have a movie theater committed (at least that they shared), and how is that Chisholm Creek movie theater coming? And some unnamed grocery as well... (woop!), some retail, and some apartments. They didn't have a solid, serious plan. Just a lot of promises. It COULD have turned out nice, or, (and more likely given Covid) it would have been barely built, and now sitting with tons of empty space. So it's not like we missed out on some world class development. It was never going to be that.

+1.

A few new-to-market concepts paired with surface parking
Does not a high-end development make

[chssooner]

+1.

A few new-to-market concepts paired with surface parking
Does not a high-end development make

Not everything has to be high-end...

[Rover]

+1.

A few new-to-market concepts paired with surface parking
Does not a high-end development make

So, Saks building a store and having surface parking with it wouldn't be high end? Interesting definition. Target with structured parking would be high end.

[Pete]

Just FYI, but Tract 30 at Chisholm Creek has integrated structured parking. So does Argon apartments a Chisholm.

There will be more structured parking in future phases.

[onthestrip]

+1.

There is a large cadre
Of Local CRE Developers who
Have completely written off Edmond
And are investing 9 figures elsewhere in the MSA
Very smart move by those Devs

+1.

There is a large cadre
Of Local CRE Developers who
Have completely written off Edmond
And are investing 9 figures elsewhere in the MSA
Very smart move by those Devs

People can laugh at this but it is true. Not many people want to spend 6 figures on getting control of a piece of land, plan and engineer a new development only to either have the city throw a wrench in it or citizens kick you out of town. Why waste your time and money?

Sooner Investment, who owned this land had tried a couple times to get something done here. Now that they’ve sold it, I doubt you see them attempt any new projects in Edmond. And they’re one of the biggest developers in okc.

Even Braums fought with the city on signage at 33rd and Kelly behind on cue that got turned down. I think they abandoned the store, nothing has happened at the site.

[jerrywall]

Oh nos... all those University Town Centers and Czech Hall Marketplace type generic shopping centers Edmond might miss out on in the future....

I ask again, what are all these big, unique awesome developments happening in the metro elsewhere that Edmond is somehow missing out on. They don't seem to be having any growth problems, and there's plenty of development in progress all over Edmond. Developers deal with nimbys and zoning issues everywhere, and they go where the money is. Period. It's like arguing folks won't drill for oil if they don't get incentives.

[jerrywall]

I thought this was sort of related and interesting.. I mentioned it elsewhere, but in the most recent survey for the east Edmond plan, the top two priorities based on community feedback are:

1.Preservation/protection of forested area
2.Preservation/protection of rural character

Even though this isn't East Edmond, I think it is an insight to the mindset for the majority of the engaged folks in Edmond.