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Thread: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

  1. #326

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Agreed, but a better connection would be Trinidad as that would allow for a more seamless trip from the Front range into New Mexico, which would undoubtedly be the bulk of the connecting traffic.

    The line between Trinidad and Pueblo would need some work. It is BNSF but it does not have PTC yet. It relies on over the radio track warrants. Pueblo to La Junta does have PTC as far as I am aware, so that would be less cost.
    No reason to not connect it to one or the other, but Trinidad would be the best choice for success.

  2. #327

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    ugh... why can't they just connect La Junta to Pueblo so that it's much easier to get from OKC to Denver...
    There was a conceptual plan connecting OKC to Kansas City that not only would have a much larger population along the route picking up Tulsa, but would connect to the rest of the network at a much better time. As the plan is now you would probably need to make the connection in Kansas around 2 AM.

  3. #328

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    ugh... why can't they just connect La Junta to Pueblo so that it's much easier to get from OKC to Denver...
    100% agreed. At one time I was told that in conjunction with the proposed Front Range (Cheyenne-Den-Pueblo) train, the Southwest Chief would be re-routed to add Pueblo between La Junta and Trinidad. I have no idea if that idea is still being considered - but I definitely agree that some sort of connection needs to be made between these two trains.

  4. #329

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    There was a conceptual plan connecting OKC to Kansas City that not only would have a much larger population along the route picking up Tulsa, but would connect to the rest of the network at a much better time. As the plan is now you would probably need to make the connection in Kansas around 2 AM.
    This was the original plan presented a decade ago that shows the OKC-Tulsa-KC-St Louis-Chicago route. Still hopeful this can happen someday.


  5. #330

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    That would be nice to see one day but with nuclear powered maglev instead of rail based HSR.

  6. #331

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
    This was the original plan presented a decade ago that shows the OKC-Tulsa-KC-St Louis-Chicago route. Still hopeful this can happen someday.

    Interesting, but I was referring to a different one which was with non HSR lines.

  7. #332

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Interesting, but I was referring to a different one which was with non HSR lines.
    The most recent proposal by Amtrak?

  8. #333

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    The most recent proposal by Amtrak?
    No, I want to say the proposal was primarily being driven by Tulsa politicians and had at least some support from interested parties. If I had to guess it was sometime around 2000-2005.

    I think it also had an alternate plan for the northern connection to the network be St Louis, but more distance likely means more cost, though plausibly could have picked up more political support from Joplin, Springfield, and St Loius if that was lacking on the route through Kansas.

  9. #334

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    No, I want to say the proposal was primarily being driven by Tulsa politicians and had at least some support from interested parties. If I had to guess it was sometime around 2000-2005.

    I think it also had an alternate plan for the northern connection to the network be St Louis, but more distance likely means more cost, though plausibly could have picked up more political support from Joplin, Springfield, and St Loius if that was lacking on the route through Kansas.
    I found this Wiki on a proposal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Flyer

    I recall there was a proposal in the earlier part of the 2010's decade to connect OKC to Tulsa but the service wasn't going to connect the downtown's just the outskirts of the city and was going to average a speed of 45 MPH. Per reports OTA has plans to widen I-44 to six lanes between OKC and Tulsa one would think they could save money building an adjacent 110 MPH rail line as one project as opposed to coming back and doing it later.

    Tulsa to OKC needs to be the first priority. Heartland Flyer north is already likely going to happen. That is good enough for Tulsa for the time being. Eventually connect Tulsa to STL and then add lines from Tulsa to KC and NWA later on.

  10. #335

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I found this Wiki on a proposal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Flyer

    I recall there was a proposal in the earlier part of the 2010's decade to connect OKC to Tulsa but the service wasn't going to connect the downtown's just the outskirts of the city and was going to average a speed of 45 MPH. Per reports OTA has plans to widen I-44 to six lanes between OKC and Tulsa one would think they could save money building an adjacent 110 MPH rail line as one project as opposed to coming back and doing it later.

    Tulsa to OKC needs to be the first priority. Heartland Flyer north is already likely going to happen. That is good enough for Tulsa for the time being. Eventually connect Tulsa to STL and then add lines from Tulsa to KC and NWA later on.
    I am not sure if that is what the concept morphed into or was technically a separate push, but the original hope seemed like they wanted it to be an Amtrak line, and would have connected to existing stations on the network in OKC and KC or STL from the start. Not what was eventually trialed.

  11. #336

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    2.3 billion in federal money coming for passenger rail. I wonder if Oklahoma or any cities here will even try to get it:

    https://www.route-fifty.com/infrastr...-grabs/380585/

  12. #337

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    https://www.beeline-express.com/routes/okc-newton/

    Anyone taken the Beeline Express to Newton KS?

  13. #338

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bits_Of_Real_Panther View Post
    https://www.beeline-express.com/routes/okc-newton/

    Anyone taken the Beeline Express to Newton KS?
    Beeline Express operates this bus for Amtrak as thruway route 8903/8904 to connect OKC, Wichita, and Newton. It's been a couple of years but I've taken this bus a few times to connect with the Southwest Chief toward Chicago. It's not bad and I'm glad it exists, but if I'm being honest I can't wait for it to be replaced by an actual train. The last time I rode it, they were using an old Greyhound bus, so the seats are kinda narrow. This was a little less comfortable than I would have preferred, because I'm a heavyset guy - but if you're more in shape than I am it isn't bad. Also, the departure and arrival times of that route aren't great, but they are a necessity because of the function the route serves - to shuttle people between the Southwest Chief and the Heartland Flyer. Those minor gripes aside, no complaints. Again, very glad it exists for now, but definitely hope that it's rendered redundant by an actual extension of the Heartland Flyer soon.

  14. Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Looks like it will still be around even after the expansion since it is funded by KDOT with hq in Wichita AND there's other routes/cities being connected. It's actually something Oklahoma should consider to connect it's towns and cities to OKC.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  15. #340

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Good news hopefully this happens before the end of the decade:

    State Rep. Ken Luttrell, R-Ponca City, said he’s been pressing for a similar rail line expansion for nearly two decades because much of north-central Oklahoma is considered a “transportation desert” with no convenient access to rail, bus or planes. If the Heartland Flyer got the nod to expand northward from Oklahoma City, officials are tentatively looking at adding Oklahoma stops in Guthrie, Perry and Ponca City, and Kansas stops in Arkansas City, Wichita and Newton, he said.

    Luttrell said he believes that the time is right to expand the route because of President Joe Biden’s push to expand and upgrade the nation’s rail transportation routes. That push has been accompanied by federal funding through a related Democrat-supported infrastructure funding measure and federal coronavirus aid.

    He also said federally-designated essential rail routes will be supported almost entirely by the federal government.

    He’d ultimately like to see the federal government restore the Lone Star passenger route that ran from Chicago to Houston. That route, which was discontinued decades ago, used to pass through Houston, Fort Worth, Oklahoma City, Wichita and Kansas City before ending in Chicago. The trains also stopped at multiple smaller communities along the way.

    Luttrell argues that the Heartland Flyer rail line expansion would be a boon for tourism throughout Oklahoma. He said other neighboring states that have invested in expanding passenger rail have seen “a great return on investment” with new tax revenue and tourism dollars.

    He also said he believes the expansion would cost Oklahoma taxpayers less than $10 million if the state paid the entire cost. If the federal government backs the project, it would pick up most of the initial tab for expansion, but the federal subsidy would likely decrease over time and both states would begin picking up more of the cost.

    State Rep. Ronny Johns, R-Ada, who heads the House’s transportation committee, said connecting the Heartland Flyer passenger route to the major east-west rail lines in Kansas is “a fantastic idea.”

    “It comes with a heavy price tag, and so that’s the main concern, but hopefully we can work and get that done,” Johns said. “It would be fantastic because that connects us a lot better to the rest of the country.”

    Bryce Boyer, a spokesman for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation, said in an email that given the unknowns, it’s too soon to know how much the proposed expansion would cost Oklahoma taxpayers.

    If designated as an essential rail corridor, the project would receive $450,000 from the federal government to help plan the route. Oklahoma and Kansas would each contribute $25,000.

    He said ODOT and KDOT are working together to develop a service plan for the expansion. It’s expected to be completed in the second quarter of 2024.
    - read more here: https://www.tahlequahdailypress.com/...cea7dc162.html

    10 million dollars shouldn’t be hard for the state to come up with for a project like this. It says a plan will come out in 2024 with long term visions of restoring Houston to Chicago service which would pass through OKC. Good news on all fronts. Maybe best case scenario we get this expansion done by 2026/2027. This is good news.

  16. #341

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Kansas just voted to apply for funds along with Oklahoma. Getting close! https://www.kgou.org/business-and-ec...passenger-rail

  17. #342

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Article from TW about Tulsa being left out of the Heartland Flyer expansion which is kind of weird given that would need to be it’s own line but an OKC-Tulsa-STL line would be nice to have. Not sure why anyone would be surprised Tulsa isn’t being included in the Heartland Flyer expansion though.

    https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/go...14a93e9bb.html

  18. #343

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    Article from TW about Tulsa being left out of the Heartland Flyer expansion which is kind of weird given that would need to be it’s own line but an OKC-Tulsa-STL line would be nice to have. Not sure why anyone would be surprised Tulsa isn’t being included in the Heartland Flyer expansion though.

    https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/go...14a93e9bb.html
    This is the reason, along with lack of political will by Tulsa leaders to push hard for it:
    The condition of the railroad tracks between Oklahoma City and Newton is better than the condition of the Sooner Subdivision line, said Gary Lanman, vice president of the Northern Flyers Alliance.

    “That’s the big reason why we would have trouble getting a passenger train to Tulsa,” he said.

    When the Sooner Subdivision line was sold in 2014, estimates indicated that more than $223 million in upgrades would be needed for that stretch of railroad to meet passenger rail standards.
    At this point it would take a massive federal stimulus for rail to fund an OKC-TUL corridor, and likely would need to be part of a larger corridor connecting to STL

  19. #344

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    ODOT f@cked up with that. We need to nationalize our rail lines. I-44 is a straight shot for a nice train that could average 110-150 MPH speeds and could be a diesel train so it could be comparable to continue up to STL and offer transfers.

    Not sure if a Tulsa to KC line would be worth it or not unless it was a collaboration for a rail line from New Orleans up to NWA then onto KC with a separate line for Tulsa to KC trips using that line.

    What’s up with the leaders in Tulsa? Are they even trying or just typical small town Oklahoma mentality?

  20. #345

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Pretty sure the “leaders” in Tulsa are just George Kaiser and his foundation.

  21. #346

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    Pretty sure the “leaders” in Tulsa are just George Kaiser and his foundation.
    Well, according to the article I posted, ODOTs next priority after extending and improving the Heartland Flyer is to address passenger rail between OKC and Tulsa which could be HSR.

  22. #347
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    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    Well, according to the article I posted, ODOTs next priority after extending and improving the Heartland Flyer is to address passenger rail between OKC and Tulsa which could be HSR.
    The state has been saying that for more than 25 years, since before the Heartland Flyer even started. All hope was lost when the Mary Fallin and the ODOT sold the line between OKC and Sapulpa.

    For ODOT to say that the "next" priority is to connect Tulsa with Amtrak service is a lie, it's always been a lie. It always will be. This is why Tulsa leaders don't try anymore, it's pointless to spend political capital on something that will never happen.

    Another note, Tulsa *could* be connected easily to St Louis, but then that wouldn't benefit OKC would it? So that won't happen either.

  23. #348

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Maybe once the Heartland Flyer gets going more and is extended and our leaders see the direct benefits they’ll take it more seriously. But yeah I get your frustration. A Tulsa to OKC like should be included in the rebuild and expansion of I-44 on a new direct alignment. Take the old rail line and convert it to a trail.

  24. #349

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Didn’t Tulsa oppose the excursion train coming to Tulsa about 10 years ago. I think it was a WATCO test run, but it seems like Tulsa always opposes things and then cries when they get left out.

    Tulsa needs to get out front on issues like this. Get money together and say, “Oklahoma City, here’s $50 million. You chip in $50 million and let’s get a federal match and leave the state out of it.” That’s leadership. Expressing disappointment because they got left out of a proposal that never included Tulsa in the first place is just silly. Tulsa politicians can lean on ODOT just like Oklahoma City can. Their leaders actually have to step up to the plate and take a swing, instead of hoping Oklahoma City will do all the political heavy lifting for them. They are the second most populated city in the state, they have influence if they would even attempt to use it.

  25. #350

    Default Re: Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

    Tulsa doesn't have rail because they went all-in on autonomous cars.

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