Texas Problems

[ou48A]

Thanks for the personal insults, but there's more to life than economics, you know. I agree that we should try to improve the economics for everyone in this city -- everyone would. What I don't understand is how that is at all relevant to fostering a welcoming gay community (or Asian, or Muslim, or Hispanic, or....) since they aren't at odds with each other and in fact I think would strengthen each other. How would a welcoming gay community DIVIDE the city? And yes, having resources and a community does help those in a minority group have a better [quality of] life.... how simple minded of you to demand otherwise. I'm glad to see everything about quality of life in this city is (apparently) just about money and a proverbial rising tide that will lift all boats. Feelings of inclusion, safety, and like-mindedness are totally overrated, anyway....

I'm not trying to start a battle here, but the assertions that economics are the most important thing always and that OKC should participate in "social engineering" for "small sectors" of the population are really closed-minded and pretty insulting.

You keep talking about the gay community..... I'm not.... Nobody based on race, national origin, sexual orientation or anything else should have any more special treatment than anyone else. I have moved well beyond you ,as many of us have.... and to a point where what group you fall in matters not, just as long as you are not breaking our laws and reasonable standards of decency.
The fact that you seem to be demanding special favor from the community shows your closed mined way of thinking and is in fact insulting to others who would be excluded in your way of thinking.
“Feelings of inclusion” how much more insecure can you get. That’s like not being in the popular click in junior high.

Equal economic opportunity and its prosperity gives the individual the confidence to push though the obstacles that we all face in life.....It's a tried and true concept that's stood the test of time in world history. But based on individual ability there will never be true equality.....In a free society the goal though should be equal opportunity which gives everyone a chance to achieve their lifes goals

[Dubya61]

You keep talking about the gay community..... I'm not.... Nobody based on race, national origin, sexual orientation or anything else should have any more special treatment than anyone else. I have moved well beyond you as many of us have and to a point where what group you fall in matters not just as long as you are not breaking our laws and reasonable standards of decency.
The fact that you seem to be demanding special favor from the community shows your closed mined way of thinking and is in fact its insulting to others who would be excluded from your way of thinking.
“Feelings of inclusion” how much more insecure can you get.
That’s like not being in the popular click in junior high.

Equal economic opportunity and its prosperity gives the individual the confidence to push though the obstacles that we all face in life...It's a tried and true concept that's stood the test of time in world history. But based on individual ability there will never be true equality.....In a free society the goal though should be equal opportunity which gives everyone a chance to achieve their goals

I saw nothing in LocoAko's posts that demand special favors. What do you perceive as special favors that you think we should not be dispensing?

[LocoAko]

You keep talking about the gay community..... I'm not.... Nobody based on race, national origin, sexual orientation or anything else should have any more special treatment than anyone else. I have moved well beyond you ,as many of us have.... and to a point where what group you fall in matters not, just as long as you are not breaking our laws and reasonable standards of decency.
The fact that you seem to be demanding special favor from the community shows your closed mined way of thinking and is in fact insulting to others who would be excluded from your way of thinking.
“Feelings of inclusion” how much more insecure can you get. That’s like not being in the popular click in junior high.

You don't get it nor do you seem willing to. I stand by the first line of my response to your series of posts... but that's okay -- let's move on. I'm done wasting my time here and certainly got the message about speaking up for what I think my ~special subset of the population~ deserves (hint: there's nothing "special" about it). I hope one day you come to learn what the word privilege means -- not to do anything about it, but just for your own awareness.

Until then, good riddance. Let's get back to arguing about traffic lights on Highway 9.

[bchris02]

You keep talking about the gay community..... I'm not.... Nobody based on race, national origin, sexual orientation or anything else should have any more special treatment than anyone else. I have moved well beyond you ,as many of us have.... and to a point where what group you fall in matters not, just as long as you are not breaking our laws and reasonable standards of decency.
The fact that you seem to be demanding special favor from the community shows your closed mined way of thinking and is in fact insulting to others who would be excluded in your way of thinking.
“Feelings of inclusion” how much more insecure can you get. That’s like not being in the popular click in junior high.

Equal economic opportunity and its prosperity gives the individual the confidence to push though the obstacles that we all face in life.....It's a tried and true concept that's stood the test of time in world history. But based on individual ability there will never be true equality.....In a free society the goal though should be equal opportunity which gives everyone a chance to achieve their lifes goals

To demand to not be told by the government they are worse than terrorists and to be able to exist or to be able to enjoy the same urban districts and nightlife as all of us without worrying about car/home vandalism or physical attack is not demanding special favors.

[ou48A]

I saw nothing in LocoAko's posts that demand special favors. What do you perceive as special favors that you think we should not be dispensing?

More to the point, is there no focus on being a WELCOMING place for people .

Among other things he said this...^
If our city/ area is spending time and resources on special specific groups then they are wasting both...
We should welcome any and all who can make our area a better place to live and work.
We need to learn to judge people more for what's in there hearts and not what group they fit in.

[ou48A]

To demand to not be told by the government they are worse than terrorists and to be able to exist or to be able to enjoy the same urban districts and nightlife as all of us without worrying about car/home vandalism or physical attack is not demanding special favors.

No, its not.
Who said that?

[ou48A]

You don't get it nor do you seem willing to. I stand by the first line of my response to your series of posts... but that's okay -- let's move on. I'm done wasting my time here and certainly got the message about speaking up for what I think my ~special subset of the population~ deserves (hint: there's nothing "special" about it). I hope one day you come to learn what the word privilege means -- not to do anything about it, but just for your own awareness.

Until then, good riddance. Let's get back to arguing about traffic lights on Highway 9.

That's fine, but clearly and very clearly you don't get that you only set your self up for continued long lasting problems of the nature that I think you are talking about by playing the hand that you were dealt in the way that you would.

[LocoAko]

I saw nothing in LocoAko's posts that demand special favors. What do you perceive as special favors that you think we should not be dispensing?

Oh, you know, the usual...

- Not having state and local politicians restrict your rights and demonize you at every opportunity
- Being able to walk down the street holding hands with your partner without fear of attack
- Not receiving literature and media on your windshield about changing your "lifestyle", finding Jesus and begging forgiveness for your sins
- Not fearing any employer in the city will fire you just for loving who you love
- Not having people throw things and scream at you at the Pride celebration
- Not having to be re-assured of a police presence at the celebration for the striking down of DOMA

You know. The usual special rights for special groups. Silly feelings of inclusion!

(I must sound like such a one trick pony on this forum, but only because I feel the need to constantly repeat myself).

[ou48A]

Oh, you know, the usual...

- Not having state and local politicians restrict your rights and demonize you at every opportunity
- Being able to walk down the street holding hands with your partner without fear of attack
- Not receiving literature and media on your windshield about changing your "lifestyle", finding Jesus and begging forgiveness for your sins
- Not fearing any employer in the city will fire you just for loving who you love
- Not having people throw things and scream at you at the Pride celebration
- Not having to be re-assured of a police presence at the celebration for the striking down of DOMA

You know. The usual special rights for special groups. Silly feelings of inclusion!

(I must sound like such a one trick pony on this forum, but only because I feel the need to constantly repeat myself).

And no place have I ever said that actions like those^ are OK...
In fact, to be very clear they are not.
I do not believe anyone should be persecuted...laws / rules should be enforced equally.
If not we have a legal system that should be forced if need be to protect folks.
When no laws are being broken, I'm preety much a live and let live type of guy.

[Dubya61]

I saw nothing in LocoAko's posts that demand special favors. What do you perceive as special favors that you think we should not be dispensing?

More to the point, is there no focus on being a WELCOMING place for people (these so-called "small-sectors" of the population)?

Among other things he said this...^
If our city/ area is spending time and resources on special specific groups then they are wasting both...
We should welcome any and all who can make our area a better place to live and work.
We need to learn to judge people more for what's in their hearts and not what group they fit in.

I understand your point, but I disagree somewhat. In my opinion, there are two ways to deal with diversity. 1) Ignore it, or 2) embrace it. If I read you right, you feel that embracing it is an unnecessary expense. We should celebrate success and effort and not expend any resources to celebrate any coincidental affinity not related to success and effort. I understand that, but managing humans requires much more nuance than, say, the Soviet method of population control. They had it easy, didn’t they? Long live the party! Death to anything that detracts from this most important delineation of affinity.
I think the key would be to know how people self-identify. If you find that you’re leading a group of sneetches, some with star bellies and some with plain bellies, and if those sneetches notice a difference, it wouldn't hurt to give a shout out to the star bellies and the plain bellies once in a while. If you can’t find a reason to NOT approve of that identifying feature and if the celebration of that diversifying feature doesn't cost that much, why NOT celebrate it? Its diversity that will give a place an edge over those without such diversity. What does such a celebration hurt? Are we harmed by a St. Patrick’s day celebration? Are we hurt by a Gay Pride parade? Are we hurt by an Armed Forces Day Parade? I think not. In fact, I would bet that any expenditures a city puts out in such a celebration would be paid back in sales taxes along the parade route or property taxes by people who moved in because they thought they would be welcomed there more so than in some other location that fails to celebrate such diversity.

Against better advice, I’m gonna cross threads here, and bring in a comment that may just rank in my top ten favorite OKC Talk comments. I think it pertains here.

White people can and do talk about race in America. I'm in the field of education and this is a frequent topic. However, for most white people you have to start with some humility about your own privilege that exists by being in the majority (just as we can be privileged by speaking English, having use of our legs, or being straight). When you take stock of privileges (which almost everyone is privileged in some way), speak with humility, and engage in dialogue (not debate) then it's not that hard to have discussions about race. I lead classes about race all the time with high school, college students and adults. Rarely are the discussions combative or oppressive.

However, without humility (which is a rare commodity on many message boards), it's not even worth discussing...

The issue is that most people can't admit to their privilege, because they are ignorant to its existence.

I think OKC would be well served to recognize any minority segments of our population and point out that we’re glad to include them for the strength we gain from such diversity.

Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Peter Venkman: What?
Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Venkman: Why?
Spengler: It would be bad.
Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad"?
Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

[ou48A]

I understand your point, but I disagree somewhat. In my opinion, there are two ways to deal with diversity. 1) Ignore it, or 2) embrace it. If I read you right, you feel that embracing it is an unnecessary expense. We should celebrate success and effort and not expend any resources to celebrate any coincidental affinity not related to success and effort. I understand that, but managing humans requires much more nuance than, say, the Soviet method of population control. They had it easy, didn’t they? Long live the party! Death to anything that detracts from this most important delineation of affinity.
I think the key would be to know how people self-identify. If you find that you’re leading a group of sneetches, some with star bellies and some with plain bellies, and if those sneetches notice a difference, it wouldn't hurt to give a shout out to the star bellies and the plain bellies once in a while. If you can’t find a reason to NOT approve of that identifying feature and if the celebration of that diversifying feature doesn't cost that much, why NOT celebrate it? Its diversity that will give a place an edge over those without such diversity. What does such a celebration hurt? Are we harmed by a St. Patrick’s day celebration? Are we hurt by a Gay Pride parade? Are we hurt by an Armed Forces Day Parade? I think not. In fact, I would bet that any expenditures a city puts out in such a celebration would be paid back in sales taxes along the parade route or property taxes by people who moved in because they thought they would be welcomed there more so than in some other location that fails to celebrate such diversity.

Against better advice, I’m gonna cross threads here, and bring in a comment that may just rank in my top ten favorite OKC Talk comments. I think it pertains here.




I think OKC would be well served to recognize any minority segments of our population and point out that we’re glad to include them for the strength we gain from such diversity.

Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Peter Venkman: What?
Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Venkman: Why?
Spengler: It would be bad.
Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad"?
Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

A fair post^
I'm not against peaceful celebrations that you describe, as long as they are paying for themselves or have the prospect to do so at some point in the future.... Many of these types of celebrations that I have attended are a lot of fun.

However I do believe that many of our prejudges would be greatly diminished in due time if we stopped pushing people in to different groups where they can become increasingly radicalized over time.... Economic prosperity helps to unite us.