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  1. #201

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    You want a true "national perception" problem? Try living 20 minutes from Ferguson, MO and spending your life under the erroneous blanket of the yearly "Most Dangerous City" rankings when the majority of this metro area is as safe as anywhere in central Oklahoma. That's a perception problem.
    Very true. St Louis is such a great city that could be really awesome if it had the same kind of investment as an Austin , Charlotte or even OKC. But so many think it's a crime ridden place especially since Ferguson. The same goes for Little Rock which is also a great city that should be growing a lot faster than it is but has a bad reputation.

  2. Lightbulb Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Completely agree. Costco belongs on Memorial Rd or NW Expressway plain and simple. If they tried to come into the core, I think that would be something to fight against unless they could find a way to make it urban.
    While I don't completely disagree with your statement, Costco has developed in very dense urban locations. Check out this one in Vancouver, which is immediately adjacent to a subway station near their CBD, underneath several residential highrises; http://urbanworks.typepad.com/.a/6a0...74e34e6970c-pi. Here is the entrance underneath Spectrum (highrise).

    While this development isn't realistic for OKC - it does show they do adapt if they want to enter a market when forced to. We could encourage them to help densify OKC with an urban Costco on one of those vacant lots since Webb was so concerned. ..
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  3. #203

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    It is, but that is a different subject.
    Great, can't wait.

  4. Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    also, I think Pete's list above disproves the claim that Tulsa gets stores first.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  5. #205

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by stlokc View Post
    There aren't more than a handful of people in St. Louis that have ever been to the NewsOk website to see those comments. People outside of OKC and Tulsa not only don't know this supposed "perception," they don't care. The only people that care are those in OKC that somehow see one store or another as some sort of validation and probably some misguided folks in Tulsa that see it the other way around.
    While that is undoubtedly true the development community is tiny and the major retailer real estate people are only an even smaller segment of that community. They subscribe to ICSC and so do many others within the broader development community such as those in financing and leasing and so on.

    I received at least one and maybe more copies of the ICSC article today and I'm an insignificant part of that community.

    That article will be used by any number of competitors. They don't really intend to hurt Oklahoma City rather they want to win a particular development for their own benefit. So the article will be quoted as truth. It doesn't have to be widely read among the entire population but only noticed by the much smaller and very competitive industry that is competing for these relatively few projects.

    Development is a take-no-prisoner kind of business.

  6. #206

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    While I don't completely disagree with your statement, Costco has developed in very dense urban locations. Check out this one in Vancouver, which is immediately adjacent to a subway station near their CBD, underneath several residential highrises; http://urbanworks.typepad.com/.a/6a0...74e34e6970c-pi. Here is the entrance underneath Spectrum (highrise).

    While this development isn't realistic for OKC - it does show they do adapt if they want to enter a market when forced to. We could encourage them to help densify OKC with an urban Costco on one of those vacant lots since Webb was so concerned. ..



    That's awesome!

  7. #207

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    While I don't completely disagree with your statement, Costco has developed in very dense urban locations. Check out this one in Vancouver, which is immediately adjacent to a subway station near their CBD, underneath several residential highrises; http://urbanworks.typepad.com/.a/6a0...74e34e6970c-pi. Here is the entrance underneath Spectrum (highrise).

    While this development isn't realistic for OKC - it does show they do adapt if they want to enter a market when forced to. We could encourage them to help densify OKC with an urban Costco on one of those vacant lots since Webb was so concerned. ..
    Costco has plenty of urban locations for sure, but the one being referenced here is anything but and neither was the location they wanted in OKC.

    But either way, Costco has nothing, zero, to do with any city it is in being cosmopolitan. This idea that it's a basis for their location strategy is just ridiculous and saying they used it as a relative criterion for locating a store at 103rd and memorial in tulsa over penn and memorial in okc is just bizarre.

    Honestly,, I would hate to see it be something used to "densify" our core neighborhoods. I don't want density for density's sake. I think we need places like memorial road and the I-240 corridor, but we don't need every retail area to be like them. And I don't just mean in how the stores look or function, but in the experience and products they offer. The emerging districts in the core are beginning to offer something okc hasn't had in a long time and I think they should continuing expanding on that, instead of trying to recreate shopping experiences we already have.

  8. #208

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Let me guess - you are a Walmart shopper.
    You probably mean this, and that's both sad and stupid.

  9. #209

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Let me guess - you are a Walmart shopper.
    For most food, yep. It's the closest store to where I live, and I like my grocery shopping to be a quick affair. Virtually none of my other shopping is done at Walmart, so you may rest easily tonight.

  10. #210

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    The comments on the Tulsa world are hilarious. Like this one
    Costco are a bunch of liberal freaks. I'm shopping at Sams
    I'm crying right now. So f'n funny. This guy must be hilarious to discuss President Obama with.

    Direct link to The Tulsa World one, which is a carbon copy of NewsOk article: http://www.tulsaworld.com/businessho...r-comment-area

  11. #211

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
    Very true. St Louis is such a great city that could be really awesome if it had the same kind of investment as an Austin , Charlotte or even OKC. But so many think it's a crime ridden place especially since Ferguson. The same goes for Little Rock which is also a great city that should be growing a lot faster than it is but has a bad reputation.
    Lived in and loved STL for about ten years, but was always frustrated by the lack of redevelopment in the core. But, as someone who is in the know told me, STL has two big problems: race relations (which sadly came into an acute national spotlight this summer/fall) and political relations between the city and county governments. They have a unique city/county government set-up up there that has stalled investment and development in the city. Sorry, to go off topic here.

  12. #212

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    OKC is actually more cosmopolitan than Tulsa, both the city and metro have higher percentages of foreign born residents.

    (2013 estimates)
    OKC: 71,000 - 12.0% of population
    Tulsa: 39,000 - 9.9% of population

    (2013 estimates)
    OKC metro: 101,000 - 7.9% of population
    Tulsa metro: 55,000 - 5.8% of population

    From the US Census

  13. #213

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by KayneMo View Post
    OKC is actually more cosmopolitan than Tulsa, both the city and metro have higher percentages of foreign born residents.

    (2013 estimates)
    OKC: 71,000 - 12.0% of population
    Tulsa: 39,000 - 9.9% of population

    (2013 estimates)
    OKC metro: 101,000 - 7.9% of population
    Tulsa metro: 55,000 - 5.8% of population

    From the US Census
    True. A lot of this idea of Tulsa being a superior city is based on dated information. The numbers, when you put them in perspective, are in OKC's favor on everything except high income rooftop density.

    However, perception is reality and Tulsa is perceived to be the more vibrant, cosmopolitan city by a lot of people. I was just talking to somebody last night about very thing. He moved to OKC from New York but takes regular trips to Tulsa and we telling me how much nicer it is and how it feels so much more like Austin up there. Why do people think that? What is Tulsa doing that is giving them that perception, even today? What can OKC do to improve? For the good of OKC and the direction it is going that is something that needs to be considered.

    A lot of the attitude in OKC is "we have the Thunder so who cares what Tulsa has!" That kind of thinking will do nothing but hold OKC back. A true big league city has big league sports AND other amenities that go along with a vibrant, cosmopolitan city from cultural attractions to vibrant urban street life to live music to shopping.

  14. #214

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    As a reminder, people are going off on extreme tangents as the result of comments from one individual who:

    1) First chose an OKC location
    2) Is from Western Oklahoma
    3) Lives in the Dallas area

  15. #215

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Perhaps some of the perceptions as to why Tulsa has more of a urban, cosmopolitan feel to it could be the way Tulsa was settled. When oil struck big in Tulsa it created a lot of opportunities for people back east such as engineers and educated people to settle in Tulsa. Tulsa was known as a very clean, beautiful city and was once the "Oil capital of the World", and as a result of this, it brought in a influx of money and people that were not natives. OKC on the other hand, was founded overnight by the land run of 1889 and brought people who wanted a new life with a pioneering, frontier spirit. Many of these people most likely had very little and were searching for a new life. OKC atmosphere is more cowboy blue collar where as Tulsa is more urban, white collar. Again, this is just my perception!

  16. #216

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Tulsa is more wealth concentrated and appealing to retailers than OKC perhaps because it's still starkly divided on racial and ses lines. The race massacre of '21 still hangs in the air. Isn't this actually a plus for OKC? other than being in the same state, there's not much to compare. OKC still at it's heart a gritty cowtown where you can smell the sweet putrifaction of the stockyards depending on the wind, and Tulsa a small clean city tucked in the hills. celebrate diversity.

  17. #217

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by progressiveboy View Post
    Perhaps some of the perceptions as to why Tulsa has more of a urban, cosmopolitan feel to it could be the way Tulsa was settled. When oil struck big in Tulsa it created a lot of opportunities for people back east such as engineers and educated people to settle in Tulsa. Tulsa was known as a very clean, beautiful city and was once the "Oil capital of the World", and as a result of this, it brought in a influx of money and people that were not natives. OKC on the other hand, was founded overnight by the land run of 1889 and brought people who wanted a new life with a pioneering, frontier spirit. Many of these people most likely had very little and were searching for a new life. OKC atmosphere is more cowboy blue collar where as Tulsa is more urban, white collar. Again, this is just my perception!
    Yes this is OKC's heritage, but I fail to see how what happened 100+ years ago has much of a bearing on current events. My father's family hometown in Mississippi had more millionaires than any other city outside NYC at one point before the civil war, and even today it has several blocks of beautiful antebellum mansions. That doesn't change the fact that the town today for the most part is an impoverished dump with little industry.

    I really think this whole thing has become a bigger deal than it should. Some on here and in OKC are going to need some thicker skin going forward. Someone who has probably not lived in this state for some time says they like Tulsa more than OKC, and now people in OKC are going to have one less choice in getting their ketchup and toilet paper in bulk at least for another year or two. Is it really that much of a loss?

    I will say I do laugh at the notion of Tulsa being cosmopolitan. That's not really the correct term to use (cosmopolitan is a measure of how international something is) and it makes me think this line was fed to him by Tulsa Chamber officials. This whole thing boils down to Tulsa having 2 or 3 denser, wealthier zip codes that marketing types can identify easier than in OKC. That is not what I would consider "cosmopolitan." I can't help but to think this person's higher ups at Costco's HQ are regretting his choice of words.

    So which is it OKCtalk? Would you rather be in the city with $750 million in upcoming hi rise construction just on 2 blocks, several urban housing developments coming on board, against the backdrop of stronger job and population growth, or the city with none of these things but a Costco and Urban Outfitters?

  18. #218

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Saying that Tulsa has "none of [those] things" is incorrect. Tulsa is experiencing very significant growth and development, especially in and around downtown. I don't know where you've gotten your information that Tulsa has no urban housing developments or job and population growth. If that were true, Tulsa would likely not be getting Costco or Urban Outfitters or any other major chains not already in Oklahoma.

    Both cities are seeing incredible amounts of growth and redevelopment in their urban cores, as well as their suburbs. Retail wise, what comes to one will arrive in the other soon after. No need to stress and worry about who got what first. Businesses will go where they can make money. One executive's opinion of a city likely holds little weight in Costco's assessment of whether or not they can make money in a market.

  19. #219

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    If you compare these cities by (density, Culture, Income) or (Urban Sprawl , culture and Income) with Texas Cities to get an idea. Tulsa=Austin and OKC= San Antonio

  20. #220

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by ZYX2 View Post
    Saying that Tulsa has "none of [those] things" is incorrect. Tulsa is experiencing very significant growth and development, especially in and around downtown. I don't know where you've gotten your information that Tulsa has no urban housing developments or job and population growth. If that were true, Tulsa would likely not be getting Costco or Urban Outfitters or any other major chains not already in Oklahoma.

    Tulsa's CSA grew at at a rate of 2.26% between 2010-13. That is slower than both the state and national growth rate and less than half of what OKC has grown in the same period. Also, Tulsa has not even recovered all the jobs lost in the recession as of Q3 2014. Its one of the few places in this part of the country that has not. FWIW, OKC is running at about 107% of its total jobs since the recession, the nation as a whole is just a little over 100%.

    I am glad the Tulsa's downtown is starting to see some housing development now, but lets face it not only is it way behind OKC, it is behind similar sized cities like Little Rock or Omaha.

    You can disagree with my wording, but I stand by what I say. That fact remains the economic performance of Tulsa the past few years leaves A LOT to be desired.

  21. #221

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    You can disagree with my wording, but I stand by what I say. That fact remains the economic performance of Tulsa the past few years leaves A LOT to be desired.
    I agree, and a large part of that is due to ineffective city leadership compared to what OKC has had for many years now and the absence of a huge university medical complex like the OUHSC. Having OU 20 miles away also helps tremendously. Both cities have large energy sectors but Tulsa doesn't have the civic giant that is Devon or the jobs machines that are Continental, CHK and AEP. OKC getting the GE research center, a big part due to proximity to OU, was a huge win. Both cities have large aerospace sectors but while OKC has been growing jobs at Boeing Tulsa has seen job losses with American Airlines and Spirit Aerosystems. One of Tulsa's biggest economic stories last year was 1500 new jobs at a distribution center, hardly the tech/engineering/energy jobs that are needed to really jumpstart the local economy.

    Tulsa had a dynamic economy in the mid to late 90's with the telecom boom. Whether that can happen again is anyone's guess. I would say it has a lot of potential but something is holding it back that doesn't exist in OKC.

  22. #222

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Tulsa is more wealth concentrated and appealing to retailers than OKC perhaps because it's still starkly divided on racial and ses lines. The race massacre of '21 still hangs in the air. Isn't this actually a plus for OKC? other than being in the same state, there's not much to compare. OKC still at it's heart a gritty cowtown where you can smell the sweet putrifaction of the stockyards depending on the wind, and Tulsa a small clean city tucked in the hills. celebrate diversity.
    I work for a company that has offices in most every major city in the US. Even Tulsa had an office where OKC does not that was closed in the 90's. I asked someone who was in the know about opening branch offices years ago about why there was not an office in OKC and was told at that time that the Daily Oklahoman was the primary reason. At that time, add rates for the Oklahoman were more expensive than any other comparable city and my company used to advertise a lot in the paper so it was simply not worthwhile.

    I don't know what add rates are in the Oklahoman now with the ownership change but when I ask why Tulsa just got an office of my company and OKC has not, I am being told it is because of the lack of wealth concentration in any part of the city. I believe there is also some carryover of the newspaper add rate issue but this was not mentioned. OKC is now, by far, the largest city in the country without a branch office of my firm - with the exception of New Orleans.

  23. #223

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    I figured I would try to stay away from these topics, but a friend from LA and NYC just forwarded me the same ICSC (International Council of Shopping Centers) newsletter that had this story in it.

    I think the over-reaction to this piece is just that, an over-reaction. I know it has been stated that Costco had the OKC piece of land under contract first, truth is they were working on both deals at the same time. Again, the fact that they dragged their feet on the OKC property is the reason they aren't opening one yet. I'm a bit surprised they didn't go for another section of the Chisholm Creek development, which I would bet they probably end up doing.

    Urban Outfitter was looking at Tulsa solely. They are looking for only free-standing construction only (no malls), which is the same as retailers like American Apparel. OKC doesn't currently have an area outside of Bricktown that has decent foot traffic, and they weren't interested in that area due to the touristy feeling. Mark my word, in the next 5 years they'll probably be opening a store in Midtown/Automobile Alley.

    Frankly the people on here bad mouthing the Tulsa Chamber should be ashamed of themselves. I know many of these people, and when they are talking to any retailers or businesses looking at Tulsa there is a collective effort to talk about how great the entire state is. In fact, a big selling point for Tulsa is how close OKC and NWA is, and that regional tourism is growing across the nation makes talking about how many great things are going on in the region a good thing, not a bad thing. Anyone who has said any chamber person has said negative things about OKC is straight up lying, and those posted should be deleted or edited. If they are doing it, prove it. Where are the quotes?

    The only people bad mouthing anyone is the people on here, and it's a vile stream of hate towards Tulsa. Go look at TulsaNow, this isn't even a topic on there, because guess what - no one in Tulsa cares if OKC got something before us. Really, the list on this thread is laughable too at how slanted it is toward OKC. It's not objectable what so ever.

    Here's a few that are missing. Tulsa had the first Coach store, first Michael Kors, first LuLu Lemon (this is the best example of how when one opens in either city it is a good thing for the other. If this had failed in Tulsa, OKC would not have gotten the first "full" store in the state), Oakley opened in Tulsa first, and could name others but will stop here.

    Noah's - What is this? Are you all talking about the "events" center off Memorial? You really are going to brag about having a 10,000th place to book a weeding? There's also one in Tulsa just FYI, a simple google search and you could figure that out.

    Half Priced Books - Really? Another great retailer to brag about... You can add BooksaMillion to a Tulsa exclusive then

    Tilly's - Again, wrong. There is a Tulsa location at Woodland Hills. If we're going to count cheap crap clothing stores you can add Garage as an exclusive to Oklahoma for Tulsa.

    Hemisphere's - Really? This is not a national brand. This would be like Kansas City bragging they got a Mathis Brothers before St. Louis... come on. If you are going to use that standard to define "exclusive" to Oklahoma where are the limits?

    Kendra Scott - Wrong, yet again. Has a location in Utica Square under construction, so it is not exclusive to OKC.

  24. #224

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    How can the Garage be exclusive to Tulsa when I just saw one at the Penn Square mall?

  25. #225

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Looks like google failed me on that one at least. There is one in both now. The point was, is it really something to brag about? It's a bunch of $10 crappy shirts, big deal.

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