OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

[G.Walker]

Oklahoman has a story on this today;

Why some major retailers pick Tulsa over Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

The comments from Webb are accurate, and I agree. The thing is that Tulsa has a more concentrated population of higher incomes, which is very attractive to national retailers. In compared to OKC, which our incomes are more sprawled out, moreover, the higher incomes in this area are actually in the suburbs of Edmond, Norman, Moore, etc. If you really look at it, OKC proper does not have a high concentration of high income areas with exception of the Nichols Hills/Penn Square area, and the Earlywine/SW 134th area. Its about the concentration of high incomes not who has more than the other. South Tulsa is like one big Edmond, then you have Jenks, Broken Arrow, etc. These are very high income areas that are concentrated in smaller per square mile radius, which is a national retailers dream. Even though OKC might have more momentum, more people, the population of higher incomes and the concentration of those areas goes to Tulsa. Tulsa's road infrastructure is also more appealing, and city beautification up to par. Don't get me wrong, I love my OKC like the next person, but sometimes you just have to face the facts.

[progressiveboy]

If Webb's statement is true, then OKC needs to up the ante to become a more urban, cosmopolitan city. OKC has made good strides, however, Tulsa is also doing the same with their city. I used to look at Tulsa like a gilded, has been old dying oil city, however, recently went to Tulsa for a visit with some friends and I do have to say that Tulsa really does have a "urban" feel and more charm than OKC. Brookside, Cherry Street, Midtown Tulsa much more vibrant than OKC. Their BOK arena is much more designed and aesthetically pleasing than CK Arena. Tulsa prides itself on its beautiful Art Deco buildings! I know OKC is trying but needs to have a better image from outsiders.

[pickles]

The cultural insecurity of some people here never ceases to amaze me.

[Bellaboo]

If Webb's statement is true, then OKC needs to up the ante to become a more urban, cosmopolitan city. OKC has made good strides, however, Tulsa is also doing the same with their city. I used to look at Tulsa like a gilded, has been old dying oil city, however, recently went to Tulsa for a visit with some friends and I do have to say that Tulsa really does have a "urban" feel and more charm than OKC. Brookside, Cherry Street, Midtown Tulsa much more vibrant than OKC. Their BOK arena is much more designed and aesthetically pleasing than CK Arena. Tulsa prides itself on its beautiful Art Deco buildings! I know OKC is trying but needs to have a better image from outsiders.

Absolutely no comparison between the two arenas. One is home to an NBA franchise, the other isn't. And everyone knows the standards required by the NBA is more than a separation point. If you were to compare what is important, the 'guts', you'd see the difference.
And did I mention that OKC has the NBA's Thunder ?
And who plays in the BOK arena ?

[Jeepnokc]

Absolutely no comparison between the two arenas. One is home to an NBA franchise, the other isn't. And everyone knows the standards required by the NBA is more than a separation point. If you were to compare what is important, the 'guts', you'd see the difference.
And did I mention that OKC has the NBA's Thunder ?
And who plays in the BOK arena ?

My 12 year old son's traveling hockey team!

[Pete]

My 12 year old son's traveling hockey team!

Haha... Awesome.

[bchris02]

If Webb's statement is true, then OKC needs to up the ante to become a more urban, cosmopolitan city. OKC has made good strides, however, Tulsa is also doing the same with their city. I used to look at Tulsa like a gilded, has been old dying oil city, however, recently went to Tulsa for a visit with some friends and I do have to say that Tulsa really does have a "urban" feel and more charm than OKC. Brookside, Cherry Street, Midtown Tulsa much more vibrant than OKC. Their BOK arena is much more designed and aesthetically pleasing than CK Arena. Tulsa prides itself on its beautiful Art Deco buildings! I know OKC is trying but needs to have a better image from outsiders.

I think a good question is why does OKC still pull so far below its weight and what can it do "up the ante?" If Tulsa is more vibrant and cosmopolitan, or at least feels that way, what are they doing that OKC isn't that creates that perception? Of course that is something that can be argued and disputed until the cows come home. I think city beautification, sidewalks, and street lighting is a good place to start.

[Bellaboo]

My 12 year old son's traveling hockey team!

Nice ! Guess the parents for both teams sat on the same side ?

[Zuplar]

I'm I the only one here that doesn't mind that OKC has a more rural feel?

[Jeepnokc]

Nice ! Guess the parents for both teams sat on the same side ?

Yep, we all sat together. They had the other side closed off so we couldn't access it. There was an oilers game that night.

[Rover]

Hang on now...she only asked those retailers why they chose Tulsa over OKC. The retailers are the ones who came up with those ugly - even unprofessional - quotes. But it's not like she made those quotes up. Could she have taken them more to task? Probably. But not sure how factually reporting those statements is "promoting" the idea.

She could have asked Costco if it was true that they actually were trying to establish in OKC a year ago and why they didn't. I know the truth behind it and either they would look bad in the public eye or they would have had to lie. Either way, they come out looking bad.

Reporters don't ask really hard questions or ever put anyone on the spot anymore. They do not follow up and don't seem interested in the TRUTH...just the story.

[bchris02]

Steve said this in his chat today.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:33 a.m. I think Brianna did a great job with that story getting answers to questions asked by a lot of folks. As she reported, Oklahoma City is not losing out with every desired retailer. But there are enough big name retailers choosing a far smaller market like Tulsa that the question is worth asking - why does Costco pick Tulsa over OKC? And now we have an answer - one folks don't like. But in the game of business, perception is as important as reality and Oklahoma City has a problem thanks to its sprawl. Can we reverse this trend? You bet. But it will require an aggressive effort by city and civic leadership to address the large swaths in vacant land that exist in the urban core - especially in Midtown, Film Row, Farmers Market and along Automobile Alley and Western Avenue.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:51 a.m. I think Tulsa has done a better job at creating an urban perception of itself, and this is something Oklahoma City needs to work on.

[Pete]

^

The entire basis for her article were the Costco comments which make zero sense given they actually had a property under contract in OKC first.

I'll have to check and seek if the guy she quoted was even around or involved in the OKC site.

[Jake]

OKC's sprawl has resulted in Tulsa getting some stores slightly before OKC sometimes.

[Just the facts]

OKC's sprawl has resulted in Tulsa getting some stores slightly before OKC sometimes.

Exactly. I don't see why this is so hard for people to figure out. OKC residents have decided that spreading themselves all over the prairie is how they want to live and when retailers determine they have a 5, 10, or 15 mile service radius there just isn't enough people in their target market within that circle. They don't care if people in OKC are willing to drive 2X further for the same retail options people in other cities will drive for because if their competitor opens near the edge of their service area they lose all those potential customers. That is a risk they aren't willing to take until they have to. Heck man, there was a Starbucks on every intersection in the world before there were any in OKC. Finally, being concerned that Tulsa gets retailers first is laughable because Oklahoma in general is so far behind the national retail landscape it isn't even funny. OKC and Tulsa debating this subject is like two dirty shirts arguing which one is the cleanest.

[Edgar]

Central Ok is wal mart country. We like to belly up to the cart and fill it with big @$$ boxes of cheap stuff.

[Just the facts]

Central Ok is wal mart country. We like to belly up to the cart and fill it with big @$$ boxes of cheap stuff.

It is hard to tell if people in OKC prefer Walmart, if they shop there because Walmart is the only option, or a combination of both. Either way, local communities around metro OKC pay Walmart to locate in their City. In my opinion it is economic suicide but it doesn't stop towns from lining up for it.

In addition, last month one of the leading national real-estate and retail experts was on CNBC explaining that many retailers now don't want to locate in strip shopping centers with large parking lots, and OKC doesn't have anything but that. I posted the video somewhere here on OKCTalk.

[Rover]

COSTCO wasn't about WalMart, parking lots, urban environments, or anything of the sort. COSTCO wanted to come here, but they expect A LOT of concessions. If you don't give them, they move on down the road til they get what they want.

[bchris02]

It is hard to tell if people in OKC prefer Walmart, if they shop there because Walmart is the only option, or a combination of both. Either way, local communities around metro OKC pay Walmart to locate in their City. In my opinion it is economic suicide but it doesn't stop towns from lining up for it.

Agree with this.

In OKC there really aren't a lot of options other than Wal-Mart. WinCo's success will be a real test whether or not most people in OKC prefer Wal-Mart or they just shop there because there aren't other options. I am hoping they can put a dent in Wal-Mart's overall marketshare.

And yes, a lot of your more trendy retailers aren't going to open in a shopping center like Belle Isle. Those retailers prefer "lifestyle centers" or shopping centers with a town center layout, like Tuscana was supposed to be.

[flintysooner]

Article link was included in the ICSC Smart Brief newsletter today.

http://www.smartbrief.com/01/01/15/w...s#.VKb-nisc6So

[BG918]

In addition, last month one of the leading national real-estate and retail experts was on CNBC explaining that many retailers now don't want to locate in strip shopping centers with large parking lots, and OKC doesn't have anything but that. I posted the video somewhere here on OKCTalk.

Auto Alley and Uptown/23rd are budding urban retail corridors. They still have a ways to go but those areas are IMO the future of urban retail in OKC. That and the area around Chesapeake and the redevelopment of Nichols Hills Plaza if it can ever get off the ground. Not having a Utica Square equivalent has hurt OKC. Both cities will eventually have the same big box chains but it's the small LOCAL retailers in these urban corridors that will differentiate each city from others like it.

[Rover]

Steve said this in his chat today.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:33 a.m. I think Brianna did a great job with that story getting answers to questions asked by a lot of folks. As she reported, Oklahoma City is not losing out with every desired retailer. But there are enough big name retailers choosing a far smaller market like Tulsa that the question is worth asking - why does Costco pick Tulsa over OKC? And now we have an answer - one folks don't like. But in the game of business, perception is as important as reality and Oklahoma City has a problem thanks to its sprawl. Can we reverse this trend? You bet. But it will require an aggressive effort by city and civic leadership to address the large swaths in vacant land that exist in the urban core - especially in Midtown, Film Row, Farmers Market and along Automobile Alley and Western Avenue.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:51 a.m. I think Tulsa has done a better job at creating an urban perception of itself, and this is something Oklahoma City needs to work on.

This is a cop out in regards to Costco. Sprawl had NOTHING to do with it.

[BDP]

I don't sleep any better/worse at night knowing that a fraction of the population had to wait a little longer to go to Anthropolgie in OKC....seriously.

I'm the same way. Though I do wonder why anyone would be waiting for it... it's a freaking catalog store. There are a lot of local stores selling more interesting and exclusive items in the exact same categories.

[TheTravellers]

It is hard to tell if people in OKC prefer Walmart, if they shop there because Walmart is the only option, or a combination of both. ...

You forgot the third, in my opinion most likely, option - Walmart's cheap.

[Just the facts]

This is a cop out in regards to Costco. Sprawl had NOTHING to do with it.

Keep telling yourself that. Jax and OKC have almost identical demographics and Jax has even more land area - but our urban density is 3X higher. As such, we have stores that might never come to OKC, and multiple locations for many stores that have only one location in OKC.

Putting one's head in the sand isn't the answer.