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  1. #126
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    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    I think the writer of the article was guilty of lazy reporting. Pete is exactly right on Costco, but it would take actual investigative work to write an article that would actually shed light. In fact, like a lot of reporting these days, whether main stream media or social reporting, complex issues are reduced to generalized, stereotyped issues that don't even begin to tell the real story. With the dumbing down of media we get articles like this. Tell me what possible enlightenment this article brought to anyone except to perpetuate myths and make Tulsans feel superior .... again.

  2. #127

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanized View Post
    Hang on now...she only asked those retailers why they chose Tulsa over OKC. The retailers are the ones who came up with those ugly - even unprofessional - quotes. But it's not like she made those quotes up. Could she have taken them more to task? Probably. But not sure how factually reporting those statements is "promoting" the idea.
    Because the whole premise of the article was biased to start with.

    And if you call up someone and say, "I'm writing a story about how retailers are consistently picking Tulsa over OKC, can you tell me why you found Tulsa more attractive?", you are going to get a different answer than if you ask "I'm writing a story about the great retail market and OKC. What are your thoughts on locating here?".

    Also, Steve Lackmeyer has also made references to "yet another retailer choosing Tulsa first" on his Twitter account.

  3. #128

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    As far as which city gets what first, I think you have to take into account which retailers are picking Tulsa first and which are choosing OKC.

    Costco, Trader Joe's, Urban Outfitters, etc are in a different category than Cabela's and Bass Pro. TopGolf was a big catch for OKC. If H&M does open in OKC first that will be even bigger because it is trendy. When you look at trendy retailers, the ones that people who move here from big cities miss the most, they pretty consistently go to Tulsa first. Not always, but pretty consistently. A huge game changer for OKC retail, if it ever happens, would be IKEA.

    The worst part about the article though is the fact it didn't go into the real reasons I've always assumed trendy retailers prefer Tulsa - the fact that Tulsa's high-income rooftops are concentrated. Instead, it quoted how OKC isn't as cosmopolitan and feels more rural than Tulsa, which is very insulting. It would be one thing if it was in an editorial in the Tulsa World where you would expect something like that, but it was quoted as being said by Richard Webb, senior Vice President of Costco. I wonder if he would also say Wichita has more of a "big city" feel than OKC does.

    It makes me wonder how much OKC's national image plays into the reason this city has trouble landing trendy national retailers.

  4. #129

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Costco, Trader Joe's, Urban Outfitters, etc are in a different category than Cabela's and Bass Pro. TopGolf was a big catch for OKC. If H&M does open in OKC first that will be even bigger because it is trendy. When you look at trendy retailers, the ones that people who move here from big cities miss the most, they pretty consistently go to Tulsa first. Not always, but pretty consistently.
    Trader Joe's has not been announced for Tulsa, so you shouldn't be counting them.

    Also, you left off Von Maur for OKC and if you're going to mention Costco, you have to also point out Sam's Club came to OKC not only before Tulsa, but before anywhere else. It's very first location was in Midwest City in 1983. Also, you think the fact there are 7 Sam's in OKC vs. Tulsa's 4 might have had a little do with Costco's decision? And there are several more OKC locations for a reason.

    There is a comprehensive list at the top of the page. If something is missing or inaccurate, please provide that information.

    Otherwise, the list speaks for itself and does not support the constant drumbeat of "Tulsa gets everything first".

  5. #130

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    BTW, although WinCo is also looking at Tulsa, they have purchased two OKC properties already and two more are getting very close.

    I'm not aware of them buying anything in Tulsa as of yet.

    Almost certainly they will be coming to OKC first.

  6. #131

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post

    Also, you left off Von Maur for OKC and if you're going to mention Costco, you have to also point out Sam's Club came to OKC not only before Tulsa, but before anywhere else. It's very first location was in Midwest City in 1983. Also, you think the fact there are 7 Sam's in OKC vs. Tulsa's 4 might have had a little do with Costco's decision? And there are several more OKC locations for a reason.
    OKC is basically Wal-Mart's home turf despite their HQ being in Bentonville. No other major city, including Tulsa, has the Wal-Mart market dominance that OKC does. I am not trying to argue or be negative, but I wouldn't consider having more Wal-Marts and Sams Clubs as being a positive thing for OKC's retail scene. If anything they keep competitors out and reduce options as would any monopoly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    There is a comprehensive list at the top of the page. If something is missing or inaccurate, please provide that information.
    One thing that isn't in the list is WinCo. Has it announced a Tulsa location? If not, it should probably be added to the OKC list.

  7. #132

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    I mentioned WinCo in the post above yours.

    OKC is basically Wal-Mart's home turf despite their HQ being in Bentonville. No other major city, including Tulsa, has the Wal-Mart market dominance that OKC does. I am not trying to argue or be negative, but I wouldn't consider having more Wal-Marts and Sams Clubs as being a positive thing for OKC's retail scene. If anything they keep competitors out and reduce options as would any monopoly.
    You can't prove your first point and I'm not sure it's even true. If anything, the two markets are very close in presence of Walmart businesses, but that's besides the point especially since the Sam's Club decision was made in 1983, long before Walmart's deep penetration into Oklahoma.

    We are talking about Sam's Club and it's a virtual carbon copy of Costco. So, Tulsa getting one before the other somehow is a great accomplishment but when it comes to OKC getting one is actually a negative?


    I created the list at the top of a page as an objective way of tracking this issue.

    Yet, some want to pick and choose from it selectively in order to bolster their own preconception.

  8. #133

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    So is Costco still coming to OKC?? I would love to see a Cost Plus World Market come to OKC!!

  9. #134

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Costco and Sam's Club are completely different businesses with completely different business practices. If Sam's Club is a carbon copy of Costco then Wal-Mart is a carbon copy of Target. They are more similar than not, but there are key differences.

    If Costco was interested in the OKC market, I am not sure why their senior vice president would insult the city the way he did unless it has something to do with the fact Costco is based in a Seattle suburb and he saw an opportunity to slam the "backwater cowtown" that stole the Sonics.

  10. #135

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    I've said this before on other threads and got ripped on because of it. People need to wake up and realize that perception often is reality. The reality is that Tulsa does have more a cosmopolitan feel and look to it than OKC. While OKC is making great strides, it still has a rural feel to it compared to Tulsa. When they say that Tulsa has more of a Dallas or Austin type feel and OKC doesn't, well then we need to change that perception.

    We can all disagree and many of you will do just that. The fact remains though that many national people perceive this to be the case. This is EXACTLY why I am for building bigger towers, expanding our airport, and of course all the other projects going on in the downtown area. This will give OKC a much different perception, one that it actually looks more urban than its little brother down the turnpike. If they do this, they will not be losing out as much to Tulsa or other cities for that matter. When people come here looking to re-locate a company for example they see our downtown skyline, they see our smallish airport, etc and it just doesn't look like a major city. Now when they go down into it and see some cool things then of course that may raise a few eye brows.

    My main point it we need to build stuff that people are impressed with, because like I said, perception is reality in many cases and in our case, they think we are rural and Tulsa is a more urban type city like Dallas and Austin. It makes me a little mad inside but at the same time I know it to be true. Hope that changes but we shall see.

  11. #136

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Costco and Sam's Club are completely different businesses with completely different business practices. If Sam's Club is a carbon copy of Costco then Wal-Mart is a carbon copy of Target. They are more similar than not, but there are key differences.
    Costco and Sam's Club are as similar as two retailers can get in terms of products and target market. If you've been in both, you know they are so similar it's almost bizarre, right down to the items they each sell in their food courts.

    Walmart and Target are no more similar than Homeland and Kroger.


    And when I say Costco had an OKC property under contract, I'm saying I've seen the contract. So there is not a question as to whether the company was and is interested in Oklahoma City.


    For seven years I was a commercial real estate broker in OKC and represented many national chains in the market. I was the person that brought Walgreen's to Oklahoma. I know a fair amount about how and why these retailers choose a market or a location; I closed more than 100 deals. I talk to brokers in the OKC market almost every week.

    And when it comes to Tulsa and Oklahoma City, 9 times out of 10 a retailer comes in to look at both markets at the same time, and where they go first has much more to do with finding the right site at the right time and for the right price than it does with all this other silliness. And then they go to the other market within a year or two.


    This is a 'problem' invented and perpetuated by misconception and selective reporting.

  12. #137

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
    I've said this before on other threads and got ripped on because of it. People need to wake up and realize that perception often is reality. The reality is that Tulsa does have more a cosmopolitan feel and look to it than OKC. While OKC is making great strides, it still has a rural feel to it compared to Tulsa. When they say that Tulsa has more of a Dallas or Austin type feel and OKC doesn't, well then we need to change that perception.
    I do agree with some of what you are saying here and do think perception is a factor. However, I think everything OKC needs to do to change that perception (that it can do) is currently in progress. It will just take time for everything to develop and I have long said that I think this city will have a very different feel in 2020.

    I don't think Tulsa's skyline having a couple of taller buildings has a thing to do with the perception it has as being the more cosmopolitan city. It comes from the fact that through most of the 1980s and 90s Tulsa was seen as the real city with its act together and OKC was struggling with a dead downtown, low-quality suburban sprawl, and massive brain drain. MAPS was the first step in reversing that but once a city develops a perception it can take a long, long time for it to change.

  13. #138

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Don't get the defeatist attitude on here sometimes. Tulsa getting these stores means OKC will eventually be getting them as well.

  14. #139

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    Don't get the defeatist attitude on here sometimes. Tulsa getting these stores means OKC will eventually be getting them as well.
    It's just a few people.

    When Tulsa gets something good, it's great for OKC because it only means we'll be getting it too, and usually very soon.

    But more often than not, it works the other way but those who like to complain just dismiss those situations.

  15. #140

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Costco and Sam's Club are completely different businesses with completely different business practices. If Sam's Club is a carbon copy of Costco then Wal-Mart is a carbon copy of Target. They are more similar than not, but there are key differences.

    If Costco was interested in the OKC market, I am not sure why their senior vice president would insult the city the way he did unless it has something to do with the fact Costco is based in a Seattle suburb and he saw an opportunity to slam the "backwater cowtown" that stole the Sonics.
    Target is a carbon copy of Walmart. Literally the same thing, just a little bit nicer. There are plenty of Walmart stores that are nicer than some Target's I've been to. The Walmart at I-35 and 15th is as nice as any Target I've been to in the metro area.

  16. #141

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    Don't get the defeatist attitude on here sometimes. Tulsa getting these stores means OKC will eventually be getting them as well.
    Yeap. When they do come here and make triple the profits they made in Tulsa, they'll wonder why they didn't pick OKC first.

  17. #142

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
    I've said this before on other threads and got ripped on because of it. People need to wake up and realize that perception often is reality. The reality is that Tulsa does have more a cosmopolitan feel and look to it than OKC. While OKC is making great strides, it still has a rural feel to it compared to Tulsa. When they say that Tulsa has more of a Dallas or Austin type feel and OKC doesn't, well then we need to change that perception.
    That is absolutely not true at all. I lived in Dallas for 6 years and go there 3-5 times a month. I have been spending more and more time in L.A. than ever because I'm about to move there. Tulsa does not feel more like Dallas than OKC does. Although I have mainly just been driving in and out as Tulsa as quickly as possible, I used to drive around there to see what was going on and it felt nothing like Dallas what so ever. OKC has more of a Dallas feel, but even at that OKC doesn't feel anything like Dallas. If I had to go out on a limb, I'd venture to say OKC feels more like a smaller Houston than it does Dallas.

    You just wait buddy. In 5 years, I mean that, mark the date. New convention center, street car, airport expansion, and all the countless number of projects going on in the core and outside are completed, on top of what will be announced by then and possibly under construction, will put OKC on another level.

    I'm going to probably have to eat my words as I did with Costco, but I believe the guy who said Trader Joe's is coming to Tulsa is the same one who keeps saying Pappadeaux is going to be announced in Midtown Tulsa anytime now.

  18. #143

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Just because a city gets something first doesn't always mean it's better. If Wichita is getting a Costco, does that mean that Wichita is better?

  19. #144

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Just read the article and I agree that it was pretty poorly written. A shame because I actually like Brianna as a writer.

    I kinda wish she had called out the quote from the rep from Costco, because it is largely inaccurate. If we were to just look at city limit numbers, OKC actually has a larger percentage of upper middle class households (those from 100-200K). It is true that these households are more concentrated in Tulsa than OKC, and he may have meant to say that instead.

    I also know someone who is involved in some of these things up there in Tulsa and he tells me city and chamber officials routinely go out of their way to make OKC look bad. As Pete alluded to, 9 times out of 10, these companies are usually looking at both cities. Tulsa city officials know this and will make sure to contrast their city with OKC as much as possible, rather than try and sell Tulsa individually. This person I know didn't really tell me why they do this, but I will guess that the city is really desperate fiscally. They don't have the expansive city limits that OKC has and they've seen a lot of their tax base go into Broken Arrow, Jenks, Owasso. Tulsa was running a pretty severe budget deficit as recently as this summer. This is a matter of survival for them.

    It's odd because for the most part not only do these stores end up coming to OKC anyway, but they end up outperforming their Tulsa locations in more than half the cases. I personally know this was the case for Anthropologie. I also have to wonder how extensive this "problem" is. We are talking about maybe 5 retailers, max. It's really not as big of an issue some on here would like to make it out to be.

  20. #145

    Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    Just read the article and I agree that it was pretty poorly written. A shame because I actually like Brianna as a writer.
    I'm not sure it was her fault though. I think she made a mistake, but I still value her work.

  21. Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Brianna has asked me to post the following response. My only comment is anyone who lives in OKC has heard this question asked - whether there is an advantage Tulsa has over OKC in getting desirable upscale retailers. It is asked as much as people ask about the absence of QT stations. So Brianna set out to get answers from the chains that people ask about the most. I think the criticism of her story and her reporting is way out of line. Brianna is a damn good reporter, and she was such a fierce competitor when she was at the Journal Record that I begged my bosses to hire her.

    Brianna's comment: Tulsa beats Oklahoma City in per-capita income, although Oklahoma City does have a higher median and mean income.
    Perhaps I should have included this information with the original story. However, I plan to do a follow up.


    American FactFinder - Results

    American FactFinder - Results

    Oklahoma locations by per capita income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Tulsa (Source: US Census bureau)

    INCOME AND BENEFITS (IN 2013 INFLATION-ADJUSTED DOLLARS)
    Total households 163,507 +/-989 163,507 (X)
    Less than $10,000 15,880 +/-685 9.7% +/-0.4
    $10,000 to $14,999 10,852 +/-578 6.6% +/-0.3
    $15,000 to $24,999 22,007 +/-803 13.5% +/-0.5
    $25,000 to $34,999 21,169 +/-866 12.9% +/-0.5
    $35,000 to $49,999 25,537 +/-952 15.6% +/-0.6
    $50,000 to $74,999 27,730 +/-918 17.0% +/-0.5
    $75,000 to $99,999 14,640 +/-692 9.0% +/-0.4
    $100,000 to $149,999 13,807 +/-529 8.4% +/-0.3
    $150,000 to $199,999 5,254 +/-418 3.2% +/-0.3
    $200,000 or more 6,631 +/-387 4.1% +/-0.2
    Median household income (dollars) 41,241 +/-543 (X) (X)
    Mean household income (dollars) 63,621 +/-1,060 (X) (X)

    Oklahoma City
    INCOME AND BENEFITS (IN 2013 INFLATION-ADJUSTED DOLLARS)
    Total households 227,700 +/-1,652 227,700 (X)
    Less than $10,000 19,530 +/-872 8.6% +/-0.4
    $10,000 to $14,999 12,578 +/-813 5.5% +/-0.4
    $15,000 to $24,999 27,155 +/-1,092 11.9% +/-0.5
    $25,000 to $34,999 28,155 +/-1,001 12.4% +/-0.4
    $35,000 to $49,999 34,386 +/-1,080 15.1% +/-0.5
    $50,000 to $74,999 40,107 +/-1,033 17.6% +/-0.5
    $75,000 to $99,999 25,739 +/-967 11.3% +/-0.4
    $100,000 to $149,999 24,862 +/-1,040 10.9% +/-0.4
    $150,000 to $199,999 8,015 +/-554 3.5% +/-0.2
    $200,000 or more 7,173 +/-437 3.2% +/-0.2
    Median household income (dollars) 45,824 +/-757 (X) (X)
    Mean household income (dollars) 64,225 +/-761 (X) (X)


    The story does not say "ALL RETAILERS PICK TULSA OVER OKLAHOMA CITY" it say SOME do, which is true.
    I also made sure to include a paragraph that begins "To be sure..." that cites several recent instances in which national brands chose Oklahoma City over Tulsa to enter Oklahoma.
    The idea that I am perpetuating some type of myth about how retailers always chose Tulsa over Oklahoma City is ridiculous.
    The premise of the story was to go to those retailers who selected Tulsa over Oklahoma City as their entry to the Oklahoma market and ask them why they decided to go that route. It's notable when they do because Tulsa is the smaller city.
    Also, anybody who wants to talk with me about how I do my job can call me at 405-475-3462 or email me at bbailey@opubco.com
    Thanks
    Brianna

  22. Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    I agree with those who expressed disappointment in the article. I also like Bri and am surprised that she wrote an off-the-cuff article with lots of innuendo and misconceptions long present against OKC. Using an out-of-town executive as a subject matter expert for OKC's national perception is not the best journalistic tactic and certainly wouldn't be expected in the host city media particularly when it is negative and not correct. Then, to not follow said quote from him up with the FACT that Costco had a contract for Oklahoma City but backed out - is that why OKC is less cosmopolitan? Could it be that OKC doesn't want Costco since they lost the land deal to St Anthony and that's what's got him irked and encouraged him that OKC was more rural?

    Also note, there are ONLY 3 Sam's Clubs in the Seattle-Tacoma area (a 3.5M CSA), so we must also be a backwater and that point (and the fact that OKC has 7 Sams) could have also been mentioned in the article. ... Also, others brought up that by natural OKC having a 1.3M+ metro should have more high income wage earners than a 980K metro; but also OKC is more integrated.

    Hopefully Bri will write another article and this time - don't miss the journalistic points concerning her host city especially when they are actually THERE to be highlighted with a bit of research on Google.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  23. Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Maybe you should call her or send her an e-mail then.

  24. Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    Canadian County per capita income is higher than Tulsa County per capita income.

  25. Default Re: OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

    The article was pretty sad. The quote was pretty misguided as well. But you're not going to say something to piss off a potential market later, and for sure you're going to say something you think the market you're just going in to wants to hear.

    I don't really give a crap if Tulsa gets some chain stores first. I don't sleep any better/worse at night knowing that a fraction of the population had to wait a little longer to go to Anthropolgie in OKC....seriously.

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