OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

[warreng88]

If they say its going to be like the Allen outlet then its going to suck. It's literally a giant strip mall wrapped around a massive parking lot.

No, the OKC outlet is not some masterpiece, but the Allen stores is such a massive fail.

And it is so hard just to get into, that is why we never went back down once the OKC outlet mall opened. At least with the OKC outlet mall, you park on the outside and do all the walking up and down a couple of rows. With the one in Allen, you have drive through a sea of people going from one store to another where there is only four exits out of the interior part of the parking lot.

[warreng88]

And now you have this from the company that owns the one in OKC.

http://horizongroup.com/Post/section...ulsa%20LOW.pdf

Market saturation. If this one opens in BA and they both have similar stores, one will end up failing and I think it will be the one on 75 since BA is growing more.

[In_Tulsa]

It's going closer to Catoosa then BA. Premium outlets coming to Oklahoma is a big deal. They have a major pull in the retail industry. They are in just about every major market. The only way two outlets will work in Tulsa is if the one on 44 is just like the one in Oklahoma City. And the one on 75 has more premium anchors which will be easy for Simon. To make things more confusing Tanger outlet is marketing Tulsa also. I have no idea where they are wanting to locate in the metro. Tulsa is the most underserved market in the country for outlets that's why everybody is trying to move in. We will see what happens.

[Plutonic Panda]

It's going closer to Catoosa then BA. Premium outlets coming to Oklahoma is a big deal. They have a major pull in the retail industry. They are in just about every major market. The only way two outlets will work in Tulsa is if the one on 44 is just like the one in Oklahoma City. And the one on 75 has more premium anchors which will be easy for Simon. To make things more confusing Tanger outlet is marketing Tulsa also. I have no idea where they are wanting to locate in the metro. Tulsa is the most underserved market in the country for outlets that's why everybody is trying to move in. We will see what happens.

We will see. If two outlet malls happen in Tulsa, it will be a fun show to watch. All I'm going to say on that.

Let me also add this since some people know I don't like Tulsa and understand I'm not just trying to bash Tulsa by that statement, I don't even think OKC could support two outlet malls, and OKC is larger and growing much faster than Tulsa.

[oklip955]

I see the Fresh Market coming to Edmond but no location given. With the construction going on at the shopping center at 33rd and Blvd, I'll bet that is were its going. Just saying it looks like it would fit the style of the remodel.

[oklip955]

Any chance of more stores being built at our outlet mall. Would love to have a Pendelton and an Eddie Bauer outlet store here.

[Swake]

We will see. If two outlet malls happen in Tulsa, it will be a fun show to watch. All I'm going to say on that.

Let me also add this since some people know I don't like Tulsa and understand I'm not just trying to bash Tulsa by that statement, I don't even think OKC could support two outlet malls, and OKC is larger and growing much faster than Tulsa.

By "some people", you mean you.


Anyway,

Interesting that each of these is just a few miles from each of the two major casinos. The Horizon one at 129th and Admiral (a really horrible part of town btw) is just four miles down I-44 from Hard Rock and Simon's is about four miles from River Spirit (Margaritaville). The Horizon location has more highway traffic, the Simon location is in the booming new retail area, just a mile from Tulsa Hills/The Walk at Tulsa Hills.

[Plutonic Panda]

By "some people", you mean you.


Anyway,

Interesting that each of these is just a few miles from each of the two major casinos. The Horizon one at 129th and Admiral (a really horrible part of town btw) is just four miles down I-44 from Hard Rock and Simon's is about four miles from River Spirit (Margaritaville). The Horizon location has more highway traffic, the Simon location is in the booming new retail area, just a mile from Tulsa Hills/The Walk at Tulsa Hills.

What? I do mean me.... that's why I specifically went out and made that statement.

Go back to talking smack on OKC at city data and Tulsa Now. Meanwhile put your fake face on for the people of OKCTalk. Yes, I am a member of other forums and funny enough, I've defended Tulsa multiple times from people talking smack and saying things that weren't true of Tulsa. I speak the truth and when the truth hurts, well, people start to hate.

[BG918]

I know it has been rumored that the Creeks were interested in adding an outlet retail component to Riverwalk Crossing which they now own. I imagine they will have to rethink that idea. It is too bad that one of these isn't going in there as it has potential to be more than just a shopping center with the river trails, movie theater and residential already in place. The Creeks have stated they want to eventually connect the casino/hotel across the river to Riverwalk with a boat shuttle once a low water dam is built in that area.

http://gtrnews.com/greater-tulsa-rep...embraces-river

[Plutonic Panda]

I know it has been rumored that the Creeks were interested in adding an outlet retail component to Riverwalk Crossing which they now own. I imagine they will have to rethink that idea. It is too bad that one of these isn't going in there as it has potential to be more than just a shopping center with the river trails, movie theater and residential already in place. The Creeks have stated they want to eventually connect the casino/hotel across the river to Riverwalk with a boat shuttle once a low water dam is built in that area.

GTR Newspapers | Find Local Tulsa, Bixby, Broken Arrow, Jenks, Union, and Owasso News, Sports, and Entertainment:Muscogee (Creek) Nation Embraces River

what would really be cool--and I know this has about a zero chance of happening--would be a tram that goes underwater in a glass tunnel. That would sure be something.

[bombermwc]

It's going closer to Catoosa then BA. Premium outlets coming to Oklahoma is a big deal. They have a major pull in the retail industry. They are in just about every major market. The only way two outlets will work in Tulsa is if the one on 44 is just like the one in Oklahoma City. And the one on 75 has more premium anchors which will be easy for Simon. To make things more confusing Tanger outlet is marketing Tulsa also. I have no idea where they are wanting to locate in the metro. Tulsa is the most underserved market in the country for outlets that's why everybody is trying to move in. We will see what happens.

Tanger, yuk. Welcome to the lowest quality of all outlet malls.

[warreng88]

From the Tulsaworld.com:

Planned Tulsa outlet malls could be competing for city incentives, tenants
Two planned outlet malls are vying for city incentives and tenants.

Two possible outlet malls, one east and one west, from developers with their eyes on Tulsa are seeking city incentives to build.

One development, pitched by Michigan-based Horizon Group Properties for a location in east Tulsa, has been in planning stages for at least a year.

Jim Coles, economic development coordinator, confirmed the company has filed an application for a Tax Increment Finance District that is currently under city review.

Another development, announced Tuesday by Simon Property Group, is planning to build in west Tulsa, at the northeast corner of 61st Street and U.S. 75.

Coles said the city has received no application for a tax district for the west Tulsa project.

Both developers have been courting city officials, apparently seeking incentives to locate in Tulsa.

City Councilor Skip Steele said Horizon Group Properties has made two presentations to city officials in the last six months about locating a high-end outlet mall at Interstate 44 and 129th East Avenue.

Here is the rest of the article: Planned Tulsa outlet malls could be competing for city incentives, tenants - Tulsa World: Local

[BG918]

It will be interesting if the City of Tulsa only approves one TIF district for an outlet mall. The location for the one on 75 has a lot of people up in arms and demanding that the city not approve it because it is adjacent to the Turkey Mountain wilderness area.

[Plutonic Panda]

Tulsa is getting a Gander Mountain first :/ Hopefully an OKC location will soon be announced.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/e...b25255cef.html

[AP]

^ Is that the right link?

[Plutonic Panda]

^ Is that the right link?

No, I fixed it. Thanks for the heads up.

[warreng88]

I thought this was pretty interesting, from the Journal Record

Shopping for space: Chamber website helps retailers find the perfect spot

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record November 10, 2014

OKLAHOMA CITY – Stores searching for the best location in the city can be overwhelmed by its size, and they may not know which neighborhoods would best serve their business. That’s where the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber’s new retail website can help.

The site, okcretail.com, offers descriptions of neighborhoods such as the Plaza District and regional districts like the Interstate 240 corridor, and even success stories like Keith and Heather Paul from A Good Egg Dining Group. The information includes details such as nearby universities, average annual income and nearby major employers.

Chamber Retail Development and Recruitment Manager Tammy Fate said the site shows that the city and the chamber are proactively recruiting retail. With many cities’ budgets based solely on sales tax, getting those revenue-generating venues helps create growth, she said.

The site also has a property search tool powered by the real estate data tracking company Xceligent. The chamber uses the same tool on its GreaterOklahomaCity.com site. Businesses can search for retail spaces by size or property type, and even look for buildings or empty sites. They can find properties that may not be along the Northwest Expressway or near Quail Springs Mall.

“The whole map shows where those pockets are, from what’s happening at a big-box standpoint, but also smaller, local businesses as well,” Fate said.

Once someone finds a property, the site has the broker’s information, or the potential tenant can use the broker and developer list to learn more about properties as well.

CB Richard Ellis of Oklahoma Vice President Stuart Graham said he thinks the site will provide a starting point for people looking into the market.

“(Brokers) probably won’t send them back there, but hopefully they come to us with preliminary knowledge of what might be available,” Graham said.

He said a broker could then talk about properties he knows about, but might not be on the website because they are not officially available yet.

Graham said the site helps future businesses see how friendly the retail market is in Oklahoma City.

“I think any time you make retail property readily available to the marketplace, that’s a good thing,” he said. “I think that’s another positive step on the chamber’s part to make data more readily available to retailers.”

Since the chamber is using the Xceligent information, cities in The Greater Oklahoma City Partnership can use the property locator on their economic development sites as well. Edmond Economic Development Authority Associate Director Toni Weinmeister said she’s able to see that the property-finding tool gets about 50 views a month. A previous property finding tool had much fewer views than that, she said.

“We’re so grateful that through the Oklahoma City partnership we’re able to get that on the website as well,” she said. “I know that’s one of the top things that people look at on our site.”

[Pete]

Oklahoman has a story on this today;

Why some major retailers pick Tulsa over Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

Tulsa’s higher income levels gave it the edge over Oklahoma City for Costco, said Richard Webb, senior vice president for Costco Wholesale Corp. Representatives from the company scouted locations in Oklahoma City and Tulsa, he said.

“The demographics in Tulsa are a lot more appealing to me,” Webb said. “Some of the things that makes us successful are incomes greater than $65,000 and incomes between $65,000 and $100,000. Tulsa outdoes Oklahoma City on both of those figures.”

Tulsa also has more of a big-city feel than Oklahoma City, Webb said.

“It seems more like the Dallas or Austin areas of Texas — more cosmopolitan, less rural,” he said.

[Snowman]

Some of those quotes seem a bit stupid to be saying publicly if they have not written this market off.

[bchris02]

Webb totally insulted Oklahoma City with his comments. You can't argue that the demographics are better in Tulsa but to say that Tulsa feels more like a real, cosmopolitan city than OKC does is very harsh. He is pretty much playing to the national stereotype that OKC is basically a backwater cowtown. It does go to show that outside perception does matter though if it's a factor in getting retail and OKC still has work to do. I wonder how many other retailers have passed OKC up for the same reason? This city easily has the worst retail options for a city it's size anywhere, from upscale all the way down to grocery stores. What can OKC do to improve this?

After hearing those comments I wonder if Costco is even interested in the OKC market at all, or if they think themselves too good for this town and will stick to "real" cities like Tulsa, Wichita, and Jackson MS. </sarcasm>

[Urbanized]

No kidding. I also suspect they are inaccurate in their assumptions. I don't doubt that Tulsa still holds a slight edge in overall income per capita, but based on population differences alone it's hard to imagine that it has more individual workers earning $65K+. They probably did a city limits comparison rather than MSA, where we compare unfavorably.

Again, our metro-wide dispersal of wealth and lack of density harms us, while their concentrated wealth (some of it owing to a really troubling history with race and class) pays off for them.

[stlokc]

Ugh! This is such a shoddy piece of journalism. The OKC metro area is 40% larger than the Tulsa metro area. I guarantee you that for reasons of size if nothing else there are more high-income households in OKC than Tulsa. The reason that retailers pick Tulsa is because the wealth in Tulsa is more concentrated than in OKC. If the high-income neighborhoods in OKC were grouped together instead of scattered hither and yon across the prairie it would be a whole different ball game. Why was this not brought up and explained in this article?

[Pete]

Keep in mind Costco had a property under contract (the SW corner of Memorial & Penn) long before they bought the Tulsa property.

They stalled, the property ended up selling to Saint Anthony's instead, and because they had their hearts set on that site, decided to go to Tulsa instead.


I really wish the local media would stop promoting this "Tulsa gets everything first" myth. It's one of those things that has been repeated so many times, people accept it as fact, which is why I created this thread to track real information.

[Urbanized]

Hang on now...she only asked those retailers why they chose Tulsa over OKC. The retailers are the ones who came up with those ugly - even unprofessional - quotes. But it's not like she made those quotes up. Could she have taken them more to task? Probably. But not sure how factually reporting those statements is "promoting" the idea.

[hfry]

Exactly Pete, I would be fine with this article if she had included a bunch of facts like the size of the cities, population, mean income, areas of higher income and so on but she asked a few questions to companies that are in the process of building their Tulsa clientele. What are they going to say? Well we liked OKC much better but couldn't work out our preferred locations so settled on Tulsa. It's all numbers on pages to them so in their mind they are just justifying their choices. Sadly poor journalism like this is why many in OKC get the feeling that Tulsa gets everything first. She didn't even take the time to write about why numerous businesses have chosen OKC first and asked them the same questions.