OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

[Swake]

The one I went to was on Harvard... It would be nice to have them here though. More options is never a bad thing.

That's not even a real Reasor's store, yet, it is in bad shape. It's one of the former Food Pyramid locations (formerly Albertson's) that Reasor's just bought and is badly in need to a remodel. Reasors kept a couple of the Food Pyramid locations open before they remodeled but closed the one on Peoria in Brookside entirely for a complete remodel. I'm sure once Brookside is back open they will come back and address the other former Food Pyramid stores. That store is nothing even close to the newer suburban Reasor's locations.

[Pete]

You mean things that factor for Tulsa? (This will probably get deleted by Pete)

The reason I started this thread was the "Tulsa always gets everything first" mantra.

Completely off point to discuss OKC having Homeland first or Tulsa having Reasor's first. Going down that road is a whole other discussion and well-covered elsewhere.

[Spartan]

Doesn't that make it a defensive resource?

[Pete]

Doesn't that make it a defensive resource?

Actually, was meant to just prove it one way or another.

I think so many people have heard this repeated over and over they just accepted it.

[In_Tulsa]

Looks like Tulsa might be getting three outlet malls. This is from Horizon Group who owns the Outlets of Oklahoma City. This is from there annual report page 5.


The final new site is in Tulsa, OK west of downtown at the intersection of I-44 and I-244. The
demographics of the location are very strong and the site has great visibility and access from the
interstate. The tenant community has been very responsive to the market and the site and we are
finalizing agreements with the City of Tulsa for the project.
This project appears to face competition as well; two of the largest outlet developers have
announced sites in the market within the last 90 days. This situation is particularly frustrating since they entered the market after realizing the strong tenant interest in the market based on our
efforts. We will win the competition if the tenants choose the best location since our site is
superior to those of our competitors. Our primary fear is the predatory practices of our larger
competitors, who use their market strength to leverage tenants into inferior sites. We intend to
watch these activities closely. Our plan is to open this center in late summer 2016.

http://www.horizongroup.com/post/sec...ual_Report.pdf

[SomeGuy]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but Tulsa has Belk while OKC doesn't

Looks like Tulsa might be getting three outlet malls. This is from Horizon Group who owns the Outlets of Oklahoma City. This is from there annual report page 5.


The final new site is in Tulsa, OK west of downtown at the intersection of I-44 and I-244. The
demographics of the location are very strong and the site has great visibility and access from the
interstate. The tenant community has been very responsive to the market and the site and we are
finalizing agreements with the City of Tulsa for the project.
This project appears to face competition as well; two of the largest outlet developers have
announced sites in the market within the last 90 days. This situation is particularly frustrating since they entered the market after realizing the strong tenant interest in the market based on our
efforts. We will win the competition if the tenants choose the best location since our site is
superior to those of our competitors. Our primary fear is the predatory practices of our larger
competitors, who use their market strength to leverage tenants into inferior sites. We intend to
watch these activities closely. Our plan is to open this center in late summer 2016.

http://www.horizongroup.com/post/sec...ual_Report.pdf

If the outlet mall(s) in Tulsa indeed happen, Promenade mall is pretty much done tbh.

[Plutonic Panda]

There is a Belk in Stillwater to it looks like. The one in Tulsa isn't even that nice though.

[bombermwc]

You open three outlet malls in Tulsa, and the floor will fall out of the mall market. You're going to lose more than just the Promenade (which will eventually fall like Eastland Hills anyway). Neither OKC nor Tulsa can absorb 3 outlet malls without something bad going down.

[warreng88]

An outlet mall in Tulsa would work, but I would think putting one in BA would be the best location. It is the fastest growing city not in the OKC metro area. It has great schools, is a great area for families and plenty of land for an outlet mall. South 145th and the Creek turnpike would be a good location. Lots of income in that area.

[adaniel]

An outlet mall in Tulsa would work, but I would think putting one in BA would be the best location. It is the fastest growing city not in the OKC metro area. It has great schools, is a great area for families and plenty of land for an outlet mall. South 145th and the Creek turnpike would be a good location. Lots of income in that area.

I would agree, but outlet malls tend to be on major highways just outside of city centers. BA has good stats for any other retail development but there simply isn't that much thru-traffic on Creek Turnpike or 51.

Also, I agree that there's no way in hell Tulsa can support 3 or even 2 outlet malls. And even one would be a bit tricky to pull off. Whereas the market for an outlet in OKC extends over all of western and most of southern OK and in the TX panhandle, Tulsa is "boxed in" by OKC to the west and Branson to the east. It would have to rely on local traffic.

[BG918]

If the outlet mall(s) in Tulsa indeed happen, Promenade mall is pretty much done tbh.

Promenade could be a nice mall and has a good location in between two wealthy areas in midtown and south Tulsa, and only a half mile north of I-44 on busy Yale which has become a major north-south corridor, as well as 41st Street. It needs a makeover like what happened to Penn Square in the 90's which is in a similar location in OKC. Though unlike OKC Utica Square monopolizes the midtown high end retail market, and the Tulsa market likely can't support many more high end retail chains that wouldn't fit into Utica. If Promenade could land an H&M that would be a major shot in the arm as the Dillards anchor there is pretty decent.

As for outlet malls I doubt they move forward with three around Tulsa. One in east Tulsa/BA that serves more of northeast OK into northwest AR, and one somewhere southwest possibly as part of a redevelopment of the Riverwalk Crossing shopping center by the Creeks.

[Spartan]

Looks like Tulsa might be getting three outlet malls. This is from Horizon Group who owns the Outlets of Oklahoma City. This is from there annual report page 5.


The final new site is in Tulsa, OK west of downtown at the intersection of I-44 and I-244. The
demographics of the location are very strong and the site has great visibility and access from the
interstate. The tenant community has been very responsive to the market and the site and we are
finalizing agreements with the City of Tulsa for the project.
This project appears to face competition as well; two of the largest outlet developers have
announced sites in the market within the last 90 days. This situation is particularly frustrating since they entered the market after realizing the strong tenant interest in the market based on our
efforts. We will win the competition if the tenants choose the best location since our site is
superior to those of our competitors. Our primary fear is the predatory practices of our larger
competitors, who use their market strength to leverage tenants into inferior sites. We intend to
watch these activities closely. Our plan is to open this center in late summer 2016.

http://www.horizongroup.com/post/sec...ual_Report.pdf

This is a launch visit report where some out of towers visited Tulsa for a day to gather info, take pics, eat somewhere, and leave. "Our site is superior" relates to the interstate location and convenience for long distance "destination" shoppers.

What are the other two proposed sites? Horizon's location may not be as superior as they think, esp since I don't regard that as a great area of Tulsa.

Was there not a state market exclusivity clause when OKC gave Horizon millions of TIF dollars? A lot of the OKC Outlet's business comes from NE Oklahoma. This will cause significant erosion of market share and sales tax performance at the OKC property - AND this is a prime example of the retail extortion game. When you think you're damned if you dont, you end up being just as damned if you do.

[Plutonic Panda]

A lot of the OKC Outlet's business comes from NE Oklahoma.

How do you know?

[bombermwc]

Yeah I seriously doubt a lot of OKC outlet traffic comes from NE anything. Outlet malls aren't just some amazing deal snatcher like they used to be. You might find some sales sometimes, but really, it's just another mall with stores. The merchandise in it also happens to include a lot of things that didn't sell in other stores, so they consolidate it down. I've seen stuff from Penn Square's Banana Republic go on sale at Penn, and then when it gets down to a few left, it magically shows up at the Outlet store with mates from several other stores to instantly make "stock". So to say someone comes to OKC just to shop at a store (in any significant number) would really require some statistical backup. I'm sure people from OKC go to Tulsa to shop at stores that OKC doesn't have (like in Utica). And I'm sure some people come to OKC from Tulsa/NE for some things too.....but I doubt it would be missed that much if Tulsa opened a similar mall. For OKC, the outlet serves a west OKC market that had nothing and has been growing. And as said, it extends out west. Places like Weatherford/Clinton/Elk City/etc are less than an hour away from the Outlet in OKC. Students at SWOSU come in to OKC for movies and dinner quite often. If you're coming from the north, Penn is closer. South - Norman is closer. East...well take your pick since Heritage Park sucked and it's closed anyway, although you can find quite a bit in Town Center in MWC for normal every day stuff.

NW Tulsa near downtown is NOT a market I would suggest any retailer try to "tap". It's probably the worst location you could pick since it's far away from any of the money. South Tulsa/BA or even head up to Owasso and try to grab overflow from Bartlesville. But near downtown...no way man. Bixby probably would have been a better side of town too. That town has sort of busted recently, but it's better than any choice on the west side.

I'll point out that in OKC, the outlet was built because of a real estate investment in the old Lucent plant. That outlet mall exists because of that purchase, and then the sale off the land from the owners of the plant to the outlet builder (same for Francis Tuttle). Those structures would not have been built had that investment not been made by a group of LOCALS. The timing was good because Westgate had finally started to make ground in construction after a MAJOR bust to the area after losing the Firestone and Lucent plants. Miraculously, both plants have found a new life and have slowly started to get tenants to build things back up. I say all this because it's a reflection of how west OKC was viewed as dead along I-40 for quite a while and anything that was going to happen was going to be Yukon/Mustang. OKC was able to bring some life back into the area and build a new mall in a town at the same time others were closing (heritage/im gonna call crossroads dead given its state). I say all of that because if you're trying to find a similar reasoning of why to build in a dead part of Tulsa (from a shopping perspective), I don't think you're going to see a similar type of renaissance in this area of Tulsa. The population around it is from Sand Springs/Sapulpa, which just doesn't have the same buying power as Mustang/Yukon <-although the bottom hasn't fallen out of their industry like it once had in west okc. Not to mention the population border of Osage County. So I just don't understand their reasoning on why they think their location is so great. I see nothing but reasons why it's NOT the great location they say it is.

[Urbanized]

I had lunch with the manager of the mall a couple of months ago, and she said they drew quite a bit from outside of the metro, but much of that was western Oklahoma, west Texas, and the Texas panhandle. Makes sense to me because I know from experience that Amarillo, for instance, was already a major source of visitor business for OKC.

[Spartan]

Yeah I seriously doubt a lot of OKC outlet traffic comes from NE anything. Outlet malls aren't just some amazing deal snatcher like they used to be. You might find some sales sometimes, but really, it's just another mall with stores. The merchandise in it also happens to include a lot of things that didn't sell in other stores, so they consolidate it down. I've seen stuff from Penn Square's Banana Republic go on sale at Penn, and then when it gets down to a few left, it magically shows up at the Outlet store with mates from several other stores to instantly make "stock". So to say someone comes to OKC just to shop at a store (in any significant number) would really require some statistical backup. I'm sure people from OKC go to Tulsa to shop at stores that OKC doesn't have (like in Utica). And I'm sure some people come to OKC from Tulsa/NE for some things too.....but I doubt it would be missed that much if Tulsa opened a similar mall. For OKC, the outlet serves a west OKC market that had nothing and has been growing. And as said, it extends out west. Places like Weatherford/Clinton/Elk City/etc are less than an hour away from the Outlet in OKC. Students at SWOSU come in to OKC for movies and dinner quite often. If you're coming from the north, Penn is closer. South - Norman is closer. East...well take your pick since Heritage Park sucked and it's closed anyway, although you can find quite a bit in Town Center in MWC for normal every day stuff.

NW Tulsa near downtown is NOT a market I would suggest any retailer try to "tap". It's probably the worst location you could pick since it's far away from any of the money. South Tulsa/BA or even head up to Owasso and try to grab overflow from Bartlesville. But near downtown...no way man. Bixby probably would have been a better side of town too. That town has sort of busted recently, but it's better than any choice on the west side.

I'll point out that in OKC, the outlet was built because of a real estate investment in the old Lucent plant. That outlet mall exists because of that purchase, and then the sale off the land from the owners of the plant to the outlet builder (same for Francis Tuttle). Those structures would not have been built had that investment not been made by a group of LOCALS. The timing was good because Westgate had finally started to make ground in construction after a MAJOR bust to the area after losing the Firestone and Lucent plants. Miraculously, both plants have found a new life and have slowly started to get tenants to build things back up. I say all this because it's a reflection of how west OKC was viewed as dead along I-40 for quite a while and anything that was going to happen was going to be Yukon/Mustang. OKC was able to bring some life back into the area and build a new mall in a town at the same time others were closing (heritage/im gonna call crossroads dead given its state). I say all of that because if you're trying to find a similar reasoning of why to build in a dead part of Tulsa (from a shopping perspective), I don't think you're going to see a similar type of renaissance in this area of Tulsa. The population around it is from Sand Springs/Sapulpa, which just doesn't have the same buying power as Mustang/Yukon <-although the bottom hasn't fallen out of their industry like it once had in west okc. Not to mention the population border of Osage County. So I just don't understand their reasoning on why they think their location is so great. I see nothing but reasons why it's NOT the great location they say it is.

Cliff Notes version of this?

I assure you that the outlet isn't providing local retail to west OKC. While you're debating this there are sales tax receipts that the city has published, given it's own investment in this development.

[onthestrip]

How do you know?

I talked to an operator at the outlet mall and he said that on weekends there was a good amount of customers from 918 area code. This was a year or two ago though.

[bombermwc]

Spartan, why would you want a cliff notes version? If a topic can only be discussed in 2 sentence chunks, it's not really worth much discussion is it? Read the novel, you'll do better in class that way.

I'd say urbanized's comments counter your argument. And data that's a few months old is more accurate today than a year or two. I'm not harping on onthestrip, but "good amount" doesn't equate to an actual value. Saying "good amount" can mean that they are seeing more than they expected, but not that it's 25% or something. A report by the city is going to be skewed regardless of what data is given. Do you think they would publish something that would show that it's doing poorly? And I assure you that west OKC is a portion of the income. I don't think in any way that the local residents are providing the majority of sales, but if you had read my entire post, you'd understand why I said the comments about west OKC.

[oklip955]

From what I've seen at the Outlet Shops, people come into Okc for doctors apt, school activities, business apt, and then take a few hours and shop before driving back home.

[ljbab728]

From what I've seen at the Outlet Shops, people come into Okc for doctors apt, school activities, business apt, and then take a few hours and shop before driving back home.

You might be right, but is that just an educated guess or do you have some way of knowing that for sure?

[bombermwc]

I wish we had the county on our license plates. It sure would make this a lot eaisier! LOL

[warreng88]

New upscale outlet mall planned for west Tulsa

Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:30 am

By ROBERT EVATT World Business Writer

John Stancavage: Tulsa retail real estate at a premium

OKLAHOMA CITY - Woodland Hills Mall owner Simon Property Group is planning to a build a new upscale outlet mall in west Tulsa, a company official said Tuesday.

Simon Properties’ mall portfolio, announced the project during the International Council of Shopping Centers’ Oklahoma Idea Exchange at the Skirvin Hilton Hotel in Oklahoma City Tuesday.

New upscale outlet mall planned for west Tulsa - Tulsa World: Real Estate

[adaniel]

If they say its going to be like the Allen outlet then its going to suck. It's literally a giant strip mall wrapped around a massive parking lot.

No, the OKC outlet is not some masterpiece, but the Allen stores is such a massive fail.

[Plutonic Panda]

If they say its going to be like the Allen outlet then its going to suck. It's literally a giant strip mall wrapped around a massive parking lot.

No, the OKC outlet is not some masterpiece, but the Allen stores is such a massive fail.

I think over time it will become better. There is potential to make our outlet mall really nice. The surrounding streetscapes need to be rebuilt and the interchange needs to be replaced.

[In_Tulsa]

And now you have this from the company that owns the one in OKC.

http://horizongroup.com/Post/section...ulsa%20LOW.pdf