Urban Density

[Teo9969]

My research for population in this area:

2010 - 6,460
2013 - 6,527
2018 - 6,703

Source - US Census / ESRI forecasts

LOL…we're gonna add 1600+ residential units but only 176 people…SOMEBODY SHOW THESE NUMBERS TO GARY BROOKS!

[catch22]

To be fair, given how many census tracts they have to keep info on from around the country (hint: a lot) they base their estimates on historical evidence, not future predictions. In the next census tally, the tract will have doubled.

[Teo9969]

Soonerinfiniti,

Do you know what the future of development in that area in Dallas looks like? I'd be interested to know if they're going to see the same substantial growth we will (OKC will probably be at 10k+ by 2018, or a gain of 65%+). Dallas would then have roughly 45k people in that area. That would be pretty substantial. Obviously they are there because they already have some of the density we're just now developing, so there is likely not a whole lot of space for these 250+ unit massive developments coming to OKC in droves, but are they going even more vertical or do they actually have a decent amount of space down there to continue increasing the numbers?

[AP]

I would like to see 10k+ living downtown, but is there that much demand? Serious question. Where will these people come from?

[Teo9969]

I would like to see 10k+ living downtown, but is there that much demand? Serious question. Where will these people come from?

Well, no one really knows. What we do know is that in the next 5 years, some 1700+ residential units will come online and many of those units will have more than one person. So just filling up those units will bring us up to about 10k with the ~6500 we already have. The people will come from a variety of places I imagine. But nearly doubling the downtown residential stock over the next 5 years is going to tell us a lot about what people in this city actually want. And I don't think price is going to be an issue as there will be some basic savings living downtown, and if the demand isn't there at current prices, then a slight lowering will probably increase the demand.

These high density units are going to be major game changers for downtown.

[hoya]

I would anticipate this city can support a lot more urban housing. I think we've just scratched the surface. As we get more of it, it will become more popular.

Personally, I'd like to see this city define a sort of future central urban area, a region that we hope to have fully urbanized by say, 2050. In my mind that would connect all the best attractions in OKC. Everything from Remington Park, the Cowboy Hall of Fame and the Zoo, over to the north end of Lincoln, all the way down past the capitol to the west edge of the JFK neighborhood, over to downtown, down into Capitol Hill, over to Stockyard City and the fairgrounds, up to OCU.

That's a very large amount of space. I'd like to see that area reach, as closely as possible, the type of density that we have in Deep Deuce. Now, that's going to take a long time (as I said, I'd like this by 2050). And there's an obstacle in that a lot of these areas are already filled up with neighborhoods full of houses (some historic and some not so much). I'm not suggesting that we have any sort of Eminent Domain taking where we bulldoze these places to make way for new apartments or condos. I'm suggesting that we fill in the gaps as best we can with good urban design. We change zoning requirements in this "future central urban area" so that they are similar to the ones that apply to downtown today. If you're gonna build something on Classen, it should be something that would be acceptable in our future extended downtown.

A lot of buildings get torn down and replaced over the course of 30 years, just in the normal course of existence. We should make sure that when they are replaced, it's with something that moves us closer to our goal of a dense urban city. Lincoln and Classen should both be much more than they are today. Instead of driving down them and seeing a Grandy's or a Braums (when you aren't seeing an empty field or a run down sheet metal warehouse), you should see development the city is proud of.

[Teo9969]

I do think the zoning laws need to change for everything 35/40/44 ring (and especially in the 235/40/44 ring) some of those are municipal and some of them are state level. Parking requirements need to be lifted, a change in the ABC-1/2/3 laws need to change, and density needs to be encouraged. But in general the difficulty will be how to address the issue of single-family home neighborhoods in many of these areas. For instance in the box of 30th/May/50th/235, a substantial percentage of that is single family residences. How do you increase the density of these areas without wiping out wide swaths of single family homes?

[shawnw]

My research for population in this area:

2010 - 6,460
2013 - 6,527
2018 - 6,703

Source - US Census / ESRI forecasts

Not discounting your research (because the people that do these forecasts don't know what going on they're just using trends), but the mere fact that upwards of ~2000 living units are slated to come online (that we know about) in the next few years should (barring projects falling through) blow these projections out of the water you'd think.


Edit: Sorry, didn't read far enough along in the thread and other already said all this.

[hoya]

I do think the zoning laws need to change for everything 35/40/44 ring (and especially in the 235/40/44 ring) some of those are municipal and some of them are state level. Parking requirements need to be lifted, a change in the ABC-1/2/3 laws need to change, and density needs to be encouraged. But in general the difficulty will be how to address the issue of single-family home neighborhoods in many of these areas. For instance in the box of 30th/May/50th/235, a substantial percentage of that is single family residences. How do you increase the density of these areas without wiping out wide swaths of single family homes?

You wouldn't be able to. But there's still a lot of commercial land in that area, and light industry, that you could replace. I think some of the really run down neighborhoods could get bought up by a developer. But it's not like anyone is going to bulldoze Heritage Hills. If anything you'd just see home values in those areas go up and up and up.

[Teo9969]

After giving it some thought, what if over time the city bought up some lots on some of the main N/S arteries and then put out RFPs for development of those lots? If there were dense, walkable spines on Walker, Shartel, Western, Classen, Blackwelder/Georgia, every 2 or so blocks, that would certainly help that end goal.

And then 30th, 36th and 50th would be E/W targets.

[Urbanized]

It's probably easier for an outside agency to accurately predict growth in Dallas than in downtown OKC. Dallas has established growth trends to rely on, and the population growth in downtown OKC is a new animal and unknown to most people, even many of the people in the OKC metro.

[AP]

This is a slightly different topic but didn't want to start a new thread. Where can I found downtown design standards? Or is it all subjective? Things like new construction has to add sidewalks or things like that. Anyone know where I can find that?

[UnFrSaKn]

Barcelona

[PWitty]

Barcelona

But wait! Where's all the skyscrapers?!

[Urbanized]

Oh. Here they are.

[PWitty]

Oh. Here they are.

You couldn't let me have my fun could you?

But most of those buildings wouldn't even be "skyscrapers" by the standards over in the mystery tower threads

[Pete]

This is very interesting and incredibly depressing. These are the exact same areas.

From https://twitter.com/shanehamp.

First is from 1953; the second is present day:

[Pete]

From the same source, here is Tulsa in 1967 vs. now:

[Pete]

And Lawton 54/present:

[Pete]

1932 v. 2014

[Pete]

The OU Institute for Quality Communities has done a series of sliders that compare and contrast the changes in various downtowns before and after widespread urban renewal and highway building:

60 Years of Urban Change: Midwest | The Institute for Quality Communities

And on this page, they have done the same for OKC, Tulsa and cities in Texas. Pretty incredible.

60 Years of Urban Change: Oklahoma and Texas | The Institute for Quality Communities

[Just the facts]

Pete, that is amazing. Thanks so much for posting it. When I see how much damage was done it renews my spirit in the battle against the automobile as the dominant mode of transportation.

[ljbab728]

The OU Institute for Quality Communities has done a series of sliders that compare and contrast the changes in various downtowns before and after widespread urban renewal and highway building:

60 Years of Urban Change: Midwest | The Institute for Quality Communities

And on this page, they have done the same for OKC, Tulsa and cities in Texas. Pretty incredible.

60 Years of Urban Change: Oklahoma and Texas | The Institute for Quality Communities

Pete, I certainly understand and agree with the point you are making but the last photos don't cover the same area.

[Snowman]

Pete, I certainly understand and agree with the point you are making but the last photos don't cover the same area.

They all are pretty good alignments, they may not be pixel perfect but that is hard to do with any two aerial photos.

Did you move the slider? At the site you have to click on the line or in the circle, then hold & drag the line right or left to show/hide parts of the new and old photos

[ljbab728]

They all are pretty good alignments, they may not be pixel perfect but that is hard to do with any two aerial photos.

Did you move the slider? At the site you have to click on the line or in the circle, then hold & drag the line right or left to show/hide parts of the new and old photos

I'm sorry but they are not the same area and nothing happens at all when I click on the line or in the circle. If that is what is supposed to happen I understand it.