2014 Oklahoma Commercial Aviation Discussion

[venture]

Hmm, I thought AA kept the ATR bases at SJU and MIA. Guess I was unaware about both of them gone. I knew about AA mainline getting de-hubbed at SJU but I figured the ATRs would be kept for island-hopper feeding whatever's was left of the SJU mainline. But yeah I guess the Dash 8's of Piedmont would be good candidates for the new ATR's. I said Envoy because the DFW hub is a great fit for both the 42 and the 72, especially fuel-cost wise and all the intra-Texas and Texas border-state traffic. I guess public perception is the biggest hurdle to getting props back here though.

Speaking of DFW, heard about the new 10-gate "stinger" being built on the north side of Terminal B? I think they redesigned it to accomodate the larger RJs.

Yeah the props has been gone for awhile now. I agree that DFW would be a great hub for a new deployment of ATRs. I think the one thing that could help get props back into wider usage is push the cost savings to the ticket prices. Also there has to be some openness to them otherwise Horizon wouldn't be as large as they are.

DFW has a lot of growth coming. American is getting the new Eagle extension as you mentioned and they are also going to build another terminal - from what I'm told. Also expect AA to make big waves in Chicago soon as word of a new terminal is starting to come around.

[OUman]

^Yeah, Terminal F is proposed. There haven't even been any bids for it however, so it's still a ways away from getting constructed. If DFW's traffic continues growing at the rate it currently is at though it may be needed in the next years or so. I think it will likely come up directly across Terminal E where that parking lot is right now. I did read about how the south side gates of D are getting full at times with all of the Eagle ERJs to/from Mexico mixing in with the heavies, so now the airport is considering using the hardstands directly across from the gates and using buses for any flight that does not have a gate open.

O'Hare did have that west terminal complex proposed but there's no word on when it will be constructed, or if it's been postponed for now. I think it has its hands full with the runway re-alignment and airfield re-construction project in the short-term.

[bradh]

I would imagine a terminal F would go right across from E, where the old GA terminal was. Maybe the reason why they moved the GA terminal?

[OUman]

Terminal F will likely come up directly across from Terminal E, where there is a big parking lot right now.

The parking lot has been there for quite a while now, not sure if there was a GA terminal there before. I think all GA operations are handled north of Terminal A on the east side of the field, where the (now closed) Eagle satellite is, if memory serves.

[rayhurst]

I did read about how the south side gates of D are getting full at times with all of the Eagle ERJs to/from Mexico mixing in with the heavies, so now the airport is considering using the hardstands directly across from the gates and using buses for any flight that does not have a gate open.
.

Didn't they also build a secure walkway from B to D that would allow a few of the B gates to receive international passengers? This would free up some of the B gates that were taken up with RJs and allow more room for heavies.

[bradh]

Terminal F will likely come up directly across from Terminal E, where there is a big parking lot right now.

The parking lot has been there for quite a while now, not sure if there was a GA terminal there before. I think all GA operations are handled north of Terminal A on the east side of the field, where the (now closed) Eagle satellite is, if memory serves.

It was the GA terminal back in 2008 because I flew out of it, not sure when the new GA opened.

[OUman]

Didn't they also build a secure walkway from B to D that would allow a few of the B gates to receive international passengers? This would free up some of the B gates that were taken up with RJs and allow more room for heavies.

Terminal B already has a "stinger" on the south side, but I don't think it connects securely to the customs/immigration area in D. I think that's why all the international Eagle flights park on the south side of D.

It was the GA terminal back in 2008 because I flew out of it, not sure when the new GA opened.

I found out DFW opened the new GA facility in 2010 to accomodate Superbowl XLV. The old Eagle satellite was converted into a GA terminal.

[no1cub17]

Yeah the props has been gone for awhile now. I agree that DFW would be a great hub for a new deployment of ATRs. I think the one thing that could help get props back into wider usage is push the cost savings to the ticket prices. Also there has to be some openness to them otherwise Horizon wouldn't be as large as they are.

DFW has a lot of growth coming. American is getting the new Eagle extension as you mentioned and they are also going to build another terminal - from what I'm told. Also expect AA to make big waves in Chicago soon as word of a new terminal is starting to come around.

Not sure how I'd feel about props at DFW - don't get me wrong - I have nothing at all against props just because they're props - but there have been enough safety/reliability issues with props in cold climates that make me question how viable a large prop operation at DFW would be. Last thing I would want is my OKC-DFW flight in winter to cancel due to weather, when a simple ERJ/EMB/S80 would've done the trick. I know SAS/others operate the Q400 in Scandinavia safely - and we've come a long way safety-wise in the last decade, but still...

[Snowman]

Not sure how I'd feel about props at DFW - don't get me wrong - I have nothing at all against props just because they're props - but there have been enough safety/reliability issues with props in cold climates that make me question how viable a large prop operation at DFW would be. Last thing I would want is my OKC-DFW flight in winter to cancel due to weather, when a simple ERJ/EMB/S80 would've done the trick. I know SAS/others operate the Q400 in Scandinavia safely - and we've come a long way safety-wise in the last decade, but still...

Most of the crashes I can think of in recent years on planes that had a propellers were not from an issue with the propellers.

[venture]

Not sure how I'd feel about props at DFW - don't get me wrong - I have nothing at all against props just because they're props - but there have been enough safety/reliability issues with props in cold climates that make me question how viable a large prop operation at DFW would be. Last thing I would want is my OKC-DFW flight in winter to cancel due to weather, when a simple ERJ/EMB/S80 would've done the trick. I know SAS/others operate the Q400 in Scandinavia safely - and we've come a long way safety-wise in the last decade, but still...

There is next to no issue with props in colder climates. Horizon has Q400s every out west. Air Canada's feeder uses them up north. I don't see why the prop would be isolated for cancellation compared to any other aircraft. They are going to cancel just about anything now regardless of what it is to avoid issues with ramp delay fines and FAR 117.

The last major accident in the US that involved a prop was a Q400 in Buffalo during freezing rain. The issue though was crew error and not failure of the aircraft. I understand what you are saying though and this is representative of the perceptions that need to be changed. There aren't problems like what there were with early ATRs and icing.

[LakeEffect]

Delta is moving Seattle to Hub status: Delta takes on Alaska in Seattle - Travel Weekly

Do you think that OKC would then rate a direct (even once-a-day) flight to Seattle via Delta? I have co-workers that take frequent trips to Fairbanks on Delta and always go through Salt Lake...

What traffic currently goes from OKC to Seattle anyway?

[BG918]

Delta is moving Seattle to Hub status: Delta takes on Alaska in Seattle - Travel Weekly

Do you think that OKC would then rate a direct (even once-a-day) flight to Seattle via Delta? I have co-workers that take frequent trips to Fairbanks on Delta and always go through Salt Lake...

What traffic currently goes from OKC to Seattle anyway?

It's possible. Alaska started flying non-stop Seattle-Omaha last November, which is a comparable airport to OKC.

But then again they don't really like OKC or Oklahoma up in that region.

[venture]

Delta is moving Seattle to Hub status: Delta takes on Alaska in Seattle - Travel Weekly

Do you think that OKC would then rate a direct (even once-a-day) flight to Seattle via Delta? I have co-workers that take frequent trips to Fairbanks on Delta and always go through Salt Lake...

What traffic currently goes from OKC to Seattle anyway?

The DL build up in SEA has been pretty interesting. They first wanted to do a code-share to feed the new international flights but something happened and they dumped in a ton of their own flights and removed the code-share on some cities. AS has since responded by opening up several new markets out of SLC. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out because AS is the hometown airline up there and people are loyal.

OKC-SEA traffic is around 170 pax per day with an average fare around $251.

[s00nr1]

Always thought SEA-OKC would've made complete sense for AS considering their maintenance needs being completed here. Something along the lines of what AA does with its 752's between TUL and DFW. Surprising to me that nothing has materialized as of yet.

[no1cub17]

Always thought SEA-OKC would've made complete sense for AS considering their maintenance needs being completed here. Something along the lines of what AA does with its 752's between TUL and DFW. Surprising to me that nothing has materialized as of yet.

I wonder if the proximity to DFW hurts us in not having AS. AS and AA are still cozy (unlike AS/DL), so AS probably feels like most OKC pax headed to the PNW are connecting on AA/DL/UA/F9 anyway, and the secondary markets AS serves (like GEG) probably don't have the traffic to justify SEA service. Too bad - it would be a great catch for OKC. Still makes me scratch my head how places like OMA/DSM/LIT get routes that OKC doesn't.

[LakeEffect]

OKC-SEA traffic is around 170 pax per day with an average fare around $251.

If I understand my airline math correctly, that's 170 round trip, so 85 one way per day? That's essentially two regional jets per day, except that Delta is going to 75 passenger plus planes, so they'd maybe do one flight a day if the did OKC-SEA?

[damonsmuz]

DL recognizing SEA as a hub airport. Interesting. Is this DL trying to convince Alaska Airlines that they should merge? Somewhere in the small print I bet it does

[venture]

If I understand my airline math correctly, that's 170 round trip, so 85 one way per day? That's essentially two regional jets per day, except that Delta is going to 75 passenger plus planes, so they'd maybe do one flight a day if the did OKC-SEA?

You got it. I would think a 70+ seater RJ would do well on it, if not just a 737 for positioning. At some point I need to start taking some pics at the airport again. There was an AS 737 at AAR yesterday. One of the few airlines that still have a cheatline livery.

DL recognizing SEA as a hub airport. Interesting. Is this DL trying to convince Alaska Airlines that they should merge? Somewhere in the small print I bet it does

I really hope not. Any more mergers just need to be blocked at this point.

[rayhurst]

I think the main reason Delta started building the SEA hub was for international traffic to Asia. SEA-NRT/HKG/ICN/etc is about 700 miles shorter than from LAX and the fuel necessary to fly that last 700 miles makes the entire trip significantly more costly. Much more efficient to fly transpacs from SEA than LAX for connecting traffic. I think Delta determined it was cheaper to get the international hub built by using AS's existing feeder network. Once they got a number of international flights up and going, they have been slowly adding non stops to key markets and voila, no more need for AS. I don't fly Delta but they are extremely business savvy and know how to build and run an airline.

[OUman]

SEA is not a DL hub yet - it's a focus airport for the airline, although it has become a decent international station for DL (Amsterdam, Paris, Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai; Seoul, Hong Kong and London are being added this year). The CFO has stated there are plans of a hub at Sea-Tac.

[catch22]

It's in their 2014 mission statement in all Delta break rooms. Specifically it says "Strengthen our Seattle hub and continue to invest in the Seattle area."

[no1cub17]

The last major accident in the US that involved a prop was a Q400 in Buffalo during freezing rain. The issue though was crew error and not failure of the aircraft. I understand what you are saying though and this is representative of the perceptions that need to be changed. There aren't problems like what there were with early ATRs and icing.

Oh yeah that Colgan Air crash - yeesh. And I'll be the first to admit what I said is completely perception based, and not off facts. I love props though, they just "seem" safer in warmer weather. Honestly I would be totally down with prop ops here. Whatever helps keep fares down!

[OUman]

It's in their 2014 mission statement in all Delta break rooms. Specifically it says "Strengthen our Seattle hub and continue to invest in the Seattle area."

Ahh, thanks for the information. Seems like DL hasn't updated its corporate information page:

"Including its worldwide alliance partners, Delta offers customers more than 15,000 daily flights, with hubs in, Amsterdam, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Minneapolis-St. Paul, New York-LaGuardia, New York-JFK, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City and Tokyo-Narita."

As for the whole turboprops/icing deal, yes, they used to be a bit more susceptible to icing which is why an ATR accident occurred in Illinois back in 1994; ATR has since re-designed the de-ice boots that span the leading edge of the wings. Both the ATR and the Q400 regularly fly in cold climates. Further pilots of turboprops are given enhanced training to counter the effects of icing.

[catch22]

Next time I am in the Delta breakroom I will recommend they scratch that goal then. I'm sure corporate didn't mean it, since their website doesn't reflect it yet.

[OUman]

^I'm just saying since I am not a DL employee the only info I have access to is what DL posts on its website; obviously the mission statement reflects it. But I did appreciate the update you gave.