Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[OKVision4U]

This is what I was afraid of - that I would actually start to understand what OKVision4U is saying (even if I don't necessarily agree with it). Here is what I think he is saying.

For transcontinental HSR travel there is a long physical barrier running north/south - the Rocky Mountains which will cost a lot of money to over-come and will cause the train to go slower. The most economical way around is to go south. This route provides the least amount of mountain passes and receive much less snow than any route north. If you go all the way south to Dallas you start having exponentially high land acquisition and construction costs to get north, south, east, and west lines into metro Dallas. Dallas will still have HSR but if someone in Dallas wants to go to LA they will need to connect to an west bound train in OKC. Likewise, if the want to go to any point east they will need to connect to an east bound train in OKC.

Essentially what he is saying that the Rockies create a choke point and he thinks OKC should be the eastern hub of that choke point (and maybe Las Vegas is the western hub). So all transcontinental trains from the east would converge in OKC, pass through the choke point to Las Vegas, and then branch off to Phoenix, LA, San Fran, Portland, Seattle, etc.... Trains from the west would all converge in Las Vegas, pass through the choke point to OKC, and then branch off to Houston, Chicago, DC, New York, Atlanta, etc...

For freight we have similar situation here in Florida. Nearly every train that enters the state of Florida has to pass through a section of track called the Folkston Funnel (which is just across the boarder in Georgia. It doesn't matter if the train is going to Jacksonville, Miami, Orlando, or Tampa - it pass through the Folkston Funnel.

The Folkston Funnel: Train Watching in Folkston, Georgia!

Precisely. Thank you JTF. Yes, OKC is the key to linking these systems.

[venture]

This is what I was afraid of - that I would actually start to understand what OKVision4U is saying (even if I don't necessarily agree with it). Here is what I think he is saying.

For transcontinental HSR travel there is a long physical barrier running north/south - the Rocky Mountains which will cost a lot of money to over-come and will cause the train to go slower. The most economical way around is to go south. This route provides the least amount of mountain passes and receive much less snow than any route north. If you go all the way south to Dallas you start having exponentially high land acquisition and construction costs to get north, south, east, and west lines into metro Dallas. Dallas will still have HSR but if someone in Dallas wants to go to LA they will need to connect to an west bound train in OKC. Likewise, if the want to go to any point east they will need to connect to an east bound train in OKC.

Essentially what he is saying that the Rockies create a choke point and he thinks OKC should be the eastern hub of that choke point (and maybe Las Vegas is the western hub). So all transcontinental trains from the east would converge in OKC, pass through the choke point to Las Vegas, and then branch off to Phoenix, LA, San Fran, Portland, Seattle, etc.... Trains from the west would all converge in Las Vegas, pass through the choke point to OKC, and then branch off to Houston, Chicago, DC, New York, Atlanta, etc...

Kerry...it's amazing what proper grammar and English can do to help make a point clear.

While I see merit in that idea, I still think there are going to be marketing problems when you tell someone in Dallas they have to take a train north to OKC and then connect to a train west to Vegas that connects to a train going to Los Angeles.

This is a good read on pricing: http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...ed-fares-cost/

Yes the fares are dated from a few years ago, but the congestion in the NE air space remains. Acela can get a premium because of the savings in travel time for someone. They aren't waiting 1-2 hours checking in/security at the airport before the flight. Then the hour flight which might be delayed due to congestion. They know they can get on the train and get there in a certain amount of time without many delays (not saying Amtrak is always on time).

For HSR to be successful in a market pair, it has to compete against air. Either by winning the battle on travel time or by winning it on fare. A DFW-OKC-LAS-LAX route is going to take much more time than flying, so it has to win on fare. However, what are the operating costs going to be at that point? Is there anyway it is going to be lower than the $178 you'll find now? The lowest fare on Acela is $152 for the value fare for NYC to WAS...one way.

This is where the pain points are going to be to do any kind of hub and spoke system with HSR.

[Just the facts]

Well, I for one don't see transcontinental HSR happening. I see regional hubs with common integration points on the edges. You could still travel across a lot of the country but you would have to switch trains so many times you would be better off flying.

[OKVision4U]

Kerry...it's amazing what proper grammar and English can do to help make a point clear.

While I see merit in that idea, I still think there are going to be marketing problems when you tell someone in Dallas they have to take a train north to OKC and then connect to a train west to Vegas that connects to a train going to Los Angeles.

This is a good read on pricing: Getting the Price Right: How Much Should High-Speed Fares Cost? « The Transport Politic

Yes the fares are dated from a few years ago, but the congestion in the NE air space remains. Acela can get a premium because of the savings in travel time for someone. They aren't waiting 1-2 hours checking in/security at the airport before the flight. Then the hour flight which might be delayed due to congestion. They know they can get on the train and get there in a certain amount of time without many delays (not saying Amtrak is always on time).

For HSR to be successful in a market pair, it has to compete against air. Either by winning the battle on travel time or by winning it on fare. A DFW-OKC-LAS-LAX route is going to take much more time than flying, so it has to win on fare. However, what are the operating costs going to be at that point? Is there anyway it is going to be lower than the $178 you'll find now? The lowest fare on Acela is $152 for the value fare for NYC to WAS...one way.

This is where the pain points are going to be to do any kind of hub and spoke system with HSR.

Venture, if an airline guy can see the merit in this idea, then we must be on to something here.

[venture]

Venture, if an airline guy can see the merit in this idea, then we must be on to something here.

Now how about reading and addressing the challenges I presented. So far you are ignoring anything negative. How are you going to overcome pricing/travel times vs. air travel issues that current rail runs into?

[venture]

Well, I for one don't see transcontinental HSR happening. I see regional hubs with common integration points on the edges. You could still travel across a lot of the country but you would have to switch trains so many times you would be better off flying.

Completely agree. I see it more like a typical point to point network, think Southwest in the 80s/90s. You could get across country, but it'll take 3 to 4 stops to get you there. If you really wanted to take the train all the way, you can but it isn't something that would be advertised or the main focus. It would be a good excursion type experience, but it isn't going to attract the high revenue business passenger.

[OKVision4U]

Well, I for one don't see transcontinental HSR happening. I see regional hubs with common integration points on the edges. You could still travel across a lot of the country but you would have to switch trains so many times you would be better off flying.

JTF, it will take some time for this to mature. When the airlines begin to lose marketshare to the Region HSR systems, it will be interesting to see what the airlines do next. Increase Fares, Provide less flights, etc.

[OKVision4U]

Completely agree. I see it more like a typical point to point network, think Southwest in the 80s/90s. You could get across country, but it'll take 3 to 4 stops to get you there. If you really wanted to take the train all the way, you can but it isn't something that would be advertised or the main focus. It would be a good excursion type experience, but it isn't going to attract the high revenue business passenger.

Southwest based their entire business model on this formula....and it worked well. So well, they took this plan across the US and became a major, ..and many business travelers use it everyday.

[Just the facts]

I'm not sure how much HSR will affect airlines. Orly is mostly a French domestic airport and it still has 25 million passengers.

[OKVision4U]

Completely agree. I see it more like a typical point to point network, think Southwest in the 80s/90s. You could get across country, but it'll take 3 to 4 stops to get you there. If you really wanted to take the train all the way, you can but it isn't something that would be advertised or the main focus. It would be a good excursion type experience, but it isn't going to attract the high revenue business passenger.

I agree with you Venture, it will be a very nice alternative to the airports for the family who wants to get to Disneyland / Walt Disney World / Sea World in San Antonio....or the new indoor snow skiing we have in OKC, plus our new Cowboy Hall of Fame on the Park.

[venture]

Southwest based their entire business model on this formula....and it worked well. So well, they took this plan across the US and became a major, ..and many business travelers use it everyday.

You would also be wise to notice they are abandoning the model as well and focusing on longer stage lengths and less stops. They made the previous strategy work thanks to no frills, low cost service. HSR likely won't be offering OKC-DFW for $19 one way when Acela is already way over $100 for a NYC to WAS run. Most scheduled tickets with Southwest are either nonstop or have only one stop...not the multiple they use to. Passengers want nonstop, affordable service - not a handful of connections. So if HSR follows the old formula, it isn't going far.

[OKVision4U]

The MagLev is coming soon...

Japan offers to lend US half the cost of 'Super Maglev' train between Washington and Baltimore - Telegraph

[venture]

Can we stop the cross polluting of threads and stick to the topic. Vision...you still haven't explained how the cost/time factor is going to make any long distance HSR competitive against air.

[OKCisOK4me]

OKVision4U is also forgetting the fact about keeping track straight. You can put very very slight curves in a high speed rail network for maintaining speeds at over 100MPH. He wants 300MPH?! Come on now....ain't going to happen. Even if OKC is a central hub, you still have to build HSR tracks to the west and bore through some portion of the Sangre de Christo Mountain Range in New Mexico. I doubt OKVision4U is aware of the battle that BNSF went through to expand their Abo Canyon Route in Central New Mexico to a double track set-up but they had to fight tooth and nail with local preservationists that were afraid the new route would ruin the habitat of the local mountain goats. To put HSR through anything is going to cost a lot of money whether its the foothills of the Rockies or 14ers.

[Dubya61]

I doubt OKVision4U is aware of the battle that BNSF went through to expand their Abo Canyon Route in Central New Mexico to a double track set-up but they had to fight tooth and nail with local preservationists that were afraid the new route would ruin the habitat of the local mountain goats.

HSR Ba-a-a-a-a-ad. Goats Go-o-o-o-o-od.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm sorry venture, I forgot you were still here. No, you are still Way Too Swayed By the Airlines to ever understand the needs of a consumer.

As a consumer, I agree with Venture. 5hours vs. 12hours...... hmmmmmmm

and I like flying and looking out the window of an airplane and being above the clouds so yeeeeaaaahh

[Plutonic Panda]

Now how about reading and addressing the challenges I presented. So far you are ignoring anything negative. How are you going to overcome pricing/travel times vs. air travel issues that current rail runs into?

We need to invent and innovate. I've always dreamed of buying BSNF one day and redoing the tracks making the cars 350% bigger, integrating the trains into the tracks(eliminating derailments), and making the trains go up to speeds of 600-700MPH. The cost would be astronomical for the infrastructure as well as trying to come up with a technology that could make trains go that fast. Of course, by the time that happens, we will have hypersonic planes that can go 1,500MPH lol

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree with you Venture, it will be a very nice alternative to the airports for the family who wants to get to Disneyland / Walt Disney World / Sea World in San Antonio....or the new indoor snow skiing we have in OKC, plus our new Cowboy Hall of Fame on the Park.

JTF, it will take some time for this to mature. When the airlines begin to lose marketshare to the Region HSR systems, it will be interesting to see what the airlines do next. Increase Fares, Provide less flights, etc.

They won't loose market share if their not competitive. Lets get the technology to get these trains 700+MPH and then we can talk being competitive, but as Venture has already pointed out, the time difference is a no brainier. 12 hours VS. 5 hours..

[Plutonic Panda]

Hyperloop anyone?

Didn't the Hyperloop go something a 1,000MPH? I don't see the Hyperloop taking off though.

[CaptDave]

Interesting development on the OKC - Tulsa rail line. ODOT has claimed (and most everyone else assumed they were being truthful) that any passenger service operating on the state owned/Stillwater Central RR operated line would have to terminate in Sapulpa. I just saw a press release from the Tulsa City Council that clearly shows the sale contract of the line from BNSF to the state of Oklahoma requires BNSF to permit up to four passenger trains per day over the BNSF right of way between Sapulpa and Tulsa Union Station. This makes passenger rail service much more feasible - the remaining right of way issue is getting to the Santa Fe intermodal hub in OKC now. ODOT is an utterly worthless organization in dire need of housecleaning especially at the top.

[CaptDave]

[CaptDave]

[Snowman]

Probably nobody told "the train guy" at ODOT about it

(the message about that option not being known reminded me of an off-hand comment from the head of ODOT that made it sound like one overworked guy handled every rail issue for the entire state)

[CaptDave]

Probably nobody told "the train guy" at ODOT about it

(the message about that option not being known reminded me of an off-hand comment from the head of ODOT that made it sound like one overworked guy handled every rail issue for the entire state)

Lol - that is pretty close to being true from everything I have learned about ODOT.

[betts]

Haha! I've met him and I believe that's pretty true.