Passenger Rail Set To Connect OKC, Tulsa

[rezman]

High Speed Rail ONLY please. We don't need any Heavy Desiel Engines trains running up and down a track any more.

I can imagine the same conversation taking place back in the 1930's. Efficient Diesel Locomotives ONLY please. We don't need any Heavy Steam Engine trains running up and down the track anymore.


I've been a rail enthusiast ever since I was a kid, and I've long thought that we are far behind Europe and Asia in regards to passenger rail travel.

[OKVision4U]

No it is a solution, especially in the near term and I have used the train to Fort Worth for business purposes several times when a last minute flight was too costly. Last minute flight = $450 round trip, train = $56. Generally when I go to the DFW area, I spend more then a day there so it all works out fine. I live near downtown. If you figure drive time to Will Rogers - 20 to 30 minutes, getting there at least an hour before your flight, an hour minimum gate to gate flight time, 30 to 40 minutes to get your bags and rent a car and if I needed to go to Fort Worth anyway, about 30-45 minutes to drive from love field to Fort Worth. That ends up being at least 3.5 hours. Driving generally takes about 3 give or take, but that's 3 hours spent driving, not working and it's another 400 miles minimum on my car. So when looking at it that way, a door to door four hours isn't that big of deal.

I also make several business trips to Tulsa every month... So assuming I don't want to put miles on my car or drive in general every time I go, what good does a train to Fort Worth do for me for when I need to go to Tulsa...what a stupid statement. Forget the private company that wants to make 8 daily trips between OKC and Tulsa.. I guess I can just wait 3 decades for high speed rail service, that makes more sense.

Today is 2013, and what has AMTRAK brought to the table of OKC for the past 30 years? ... a single trip to DFW that takes 4 hours? ...This has not helped commerce at all. And you are asking me / others to put our future in this? ...why? ( this is a great business model for AMTRAK ) but does nothing for commerce to OKC.

We should be the leader in HSR and not wait the 3 decades others would want you to think. Who do you think does not want HSR? ( Airlines & Airports / BNSF & AMTRAK & train industries ) and none of these industres really care about OKC's future.

Or, we can wait in line behind Dallas / KC / others just like the orphan in 'Oliver, ...with our bowl in hand, "more please." I sure hope in the year 2043 Amtrak can get me to Dallas in 3 hours.....? Really?

[Richard at Remax]

Problem with Amtrak is that when they enter Texas the fastest they can go is 55 mph. I wish there was a train that left an hour or two earlier that was an express type with no stops. Id use it a lot more if they did that. Problem is if you aren't on the east coast you aren't getting anywhere fast on Amtrak, which is unfortunate

[PhiAlpha]

Problem with Amtrak is that when they enter Texas the fastest they can go is 55 mph. I wish there was a train that left an hour or two earlier that was an express type with no stops. Id use it a lot more if they did that. Problem is if you aren't on the east coast you aren't getting anywhere fast on Amtrak, which is unfortunate

It really isn't Amtrak's fault as much as it is the track restrictions and the priority freight services receives. It's obviously not ideal, but it is much better than nothing.

[OKVision4U]

It really isn't Amtrak's fault as much as it is the track restrictions and the priority freight services receives. It's obviously not ideal, but it is much better than nothing.

Like I said, another dog w/ different fleas. It is NOT the solution.

"better than nothing", .... NO, I have a car and i'm not affraid of using it. ... HSR. It is THE solution.

[shawnw]

Amtrak doesn't own the tracks it rides on. They are dependent on the freight network. We cannot blame them for a thing. If a private entity built an HSR-capable rail line between OKC and Dallas tomorrow, next week we'd probably see Amtrak advertising forthcoming high speed service between those cities (sure the city, state, or feds might have to chip in to fund new equipment).

[OKVision4U]

Amtrak doesn't own the tracks it rides on. They are dependent on the freight network. We cannot blame them for a thing. If a private entity built an HSR-capable rail line between OKC and Dallas tomorrow, next week we'd probably see Amtrak advertising forthcoming high speed service between those cities (sure the city, state, or feds might have to chip in to fund new equipment).

...and the airlines don't own the airports. Delta sure wants you to use their service and go through Atlanta when doing so. Southwest doesnt own Love Field, but it wants you to use this Dallas location. Industry leaders lead the industry in others ways too.

[PhiAlpha]

Today is 2013, and what has AMTRAK brought to the table of OKC for the past 30 years? ... a single trip to DFW that takes 4 hours? ...This has not helped commerce at all. And you are asking me / others to put our future in this? ...why? ( this is a great business model for AMTRAK ) but does nothing for commerce to OKC.

We should be the leader in HSR and not wait the 3 decades others would want you to think. Who do you think does not want HSR? ( Airlines & Airports / BNSF & AMTRAK & train industries ) and none of these industres really care about OKC's future.

Or, we can wait in line behind Dallas / KC / others just like the orphan in 'Oliver, ...with our bowl in hand, "more please." I sure hope in the year 2043 Amtrak can get me to Dallas in 3 hours.....? Really?

And in a little over a day it will be 2014. No one is asking YOU to put YOUR future into anything. Unless some deep pocketed investor steps up...WE ARE NOT GETTING HIGH-SPEED RAIL BEFORE THE EAST AND WEST COAST, get that through your head. I think everyone would be cool with high-speed rail until they see the cost which, at least right now, hurts the feasibility of it especially in this part of the country. So your suggestion is just to not have rail travel (Even if it is privately funded at no cost to anyone other than those that ride it), until 3 decades from now when true high-speed rail happens (Maybe). That makes a lot more sense...

[venture]

And in a little over a day it will be 2014. No one is asking YOU to put YOUR future into anything. Unless some deep pocketed investor steps up...WE ARE NOT GETTING HIGH-SPEED RAIL BEFORE THE EAST AND WEST COAST, get that through your head. I think everyone would be cool with high-speed rail until they see the cost which, at least right now, hurts the feasibility of it especially in this part of the country. So your suggestion is just to not have rail travel (Even if it is privately funded at no cost to anyone other than those that ride it), until 3 decades from now when true high-speed rail happens (Maybe). That makes a lot more sense...

Yeah it makes no sense to just not do anything until you get the gold standard. The culture here is to either drive or fly. It is going to take some time to get people to accept rail here. The most likely area to build out HSR first is from Chicago on lines to Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Des Moines, and Minneapolis. Then move to the Boston-New York-Washington-Florida corridor and tie it also into the Midwest network.

[shawnw]

...and the airlines don't own the airports. Delta sure wants you to use their service and go through Atlanta when doing so. Southwest doesnt own Love Field, but it wants you to use this Dallas location. Industry leaders lead the industry in others ways too.

So your proposal is what? You want UP and BNSF, et al to build HSR-capable lines between major cities? Me too! Problem is they have shareholders and bottom lines to consider. As much as we all like to believe in the nobility of industry leaders, if it doesn't make business sense ALSO, they won't lead us anywhere. My point is we have to first show user demand. That's on us, the potential riders. If Amtrak and its slow service is teaming with use and those users are clamoring for HSR (by writing letters to their city, county, state, and federal leaders), to the extent that Amtrak can take those ridership numbers to the freight line operators and show the business case for higher speed rail (in addition to the political pressure from all those letters), THEN we'd see this rail developed (maybe).

[venture]

Shawn isn't far off. The demand has to go up and then they'll invest money. It also doesn't help rail's case with continued expansion of roads and highways, increases in speed limits, etc. Toll every highway, cap speeds and load limits, and free up the money in the budget that goes to highways to reinvest in rail. We also need to keep in mine that the nation's air space is even more congested now and that can be used as another driver to push people to rail. Take care of the capacity problems at airports - start re-implementing slots in a smart way - and then encourage expanding the code-share relationships between airlines and rail lines.

[OKVision4U]

Yeah it makes no sense to just not do anything until you get the gold standard. The culture here is to either drive or fly. It is going to take some time to get people to accept rail here. The most likely area to build out HSR first is from Chicago on lines to Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Des Moines, and Minneapolis. Then move to the Boston-New York-Washington-Florida corridor and tie it also into the Midwest network.

I'm gonna shed some light on how the rest of the US travels... The big money ( LA - NYC / Chicago - Dallas ) ALL fly over your heads. This is the WHY OKC should / must place this OPTION for travel. We hold the key to their ability to connect this concept into reality.

[OKVision4U]

Shawn isn't far off. The demand has to go up and then they'll invest money. It also doesn't help rail's case with continued expansion of roads and highways, increases in speed limits, etc. Toll every highway, cap speeds and load limits, and free up the money in the budget that goes to highways to reinvest in rail. We also need to keep in mine that the nation's air space is even more congested now and that can be used as another driver to push people to rail. Take care of the capacity problems at airports - start re-implementing slots in a smart way - and then encourage expanding the code-share relationships between airlines and rail lines.

and those are great ideas for the airlines & standard freight lines industries. This group will never place any support for HSR. Boeing builds and sells planes, they don't want to see HSR demand increase ever!

If we want to see HSR, then we have to be "outside" the other industries influences. Airlines & Freight. They are holding it all back.

[PhiAlpha]

Yeah it makes no sense to just not do anything until you get the gold standard. The culture here is to either drive or fly. It is going to take some time to get people to accept rail here. The most likely area to build out HSR first is from Chicago on lines to Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Des Moines, and Minneapolis. Then move to the Boston-New York-Washington-Florida corridor and tie it also into the Midwest network.

Exactly, not to mention that people do actually use the Heartland Flyer right now as I'm sure they would regular service between OKC and Tulsa. People are starting to see the benefits of rail travel over at least driving. I used to be in the group that thought the heartland flyer was pointless, but a few trips have changed that for me. It's never been completely full when I've ridden it outside of OU/TX weekend but has always had a pretty decent amount of people on it depending on the day. I love my truck as much as the next guy but it's nice to take a break every once and awhile on frequently traveled routes like I-35 and I-44. Besides working, the train is usually pretty comfortable...not a bad place to take a nap.

[shawnw]

I'm gonna shed some light on how the rest of the US travels... The big money ( LA - NYC / Chicago - Dallas ) ALL fly over your heads. This is the WHY OKC should / must place this OPTION for travel. We hold the key to their ability to connect this concept into reality.

Again, what do you propose we do? Enough with the conjecture. Share your realistic ideas. I want to hear them. The city of Oklahoma city cannot reasonably be expected to build and own high speed rail lines and equipment for the purpose of people "passing through" OKC. That would be no better than them flying over us.

[venture]

I'm gonna shed some light on how the rest of the US travels... The big money ( LA - NYC / Chicago - Dallas ) ALL fly over your heads. This is the WHY OKC should / must place this OPTION for travel. We hold the key to their ability to connect this concept into reality.

Thanks for shedding some light to an airline employee...I never would have understood that otherwise.

and those are great ideas for the airlines & standard freight lines industries. This group will never place any support for HSR. Boeing builds and sells planes, they don't want to see HSR demand increase ever!

If we want to see HSR, then we have to be "outside" the other industries influences. Airlines & Freight. They are holding it all back.

Bombardier has built thousands of planes. Oh...and what else do they build? Rail Vehicles - Trains, Metros, Monorails and Locomotives - Bombardier

Boeing has released many reports over the last few years that support intermodal solutions that combine air and HSR.

[venture]

Exactly, not to mention that people do actually use the Heartland Flyer right now as I'm sure they would regular service between OKC and Tulsa. People are starting to see the benefits of rail travel over at least driving. I used to be in the group that thought the heartland flyer was pointless, but a few trips have changed that for me. It's never been completely full when I've ridden it outside of OU/TX weekend but has always had a pretty decent amount of people on it depending on the day. I love my truck as much as the next guy but it's nice to take a break every once and awhile on frequently traveled routes like I-35 and I-44. Besides working, the train is usually pretty comfortable...not a bad place to take a nap.

If they could improve the schedule, increase speeds some, and allow me convenient connections to the airports - I would be able to to be based out of Dallas for work and just commute on the train each day. I would have no problem doing an hour and a half commute on a train that I can either nap on, get some more work done, etc.

[shawnw]

I know people that have commuted to/from Tulsa from/to OKC for years and have thought if there are people willing to drive 4 hours a day round trip to get to/from OKC, they'd be willing to do that same thing going to/from Dallas on a fast train...

[Plutonic Panda]

I know people that have commuted to/from Tulsa from/to OKC for years and have thought if there are people willing to drive 4 hours a day round trip to get to/from OKC, they'd be willing to do that same thing going to/from Dallas on a fast train...

Tulsa is like an hour drive, sometimes and an hour and a half.... Dallas is about 2 1/2 to 3 hours.

[Prunepicker]

I know people that have commuted to/from Tulsa from/to OKC for
years and have thought if there are people willing to drive 4 hours a
day round trip to get to/from OKC, they'd be willing to do that same
thing going to/from Dallas on a fast train...

To a point, yes. I've noticed that people will only pay what appears
to be and exuberant amount of money if the trip will prevent them
from losing an exuberant amount of money.

Mom and Pop ain't gonna spend anything near $75 apiece for a
trip to T-Town and back. If in fact $75 is for a round trip ticket. Hell,
Greyhound is less expensive and can get them there for @ $45.

Except for being noticed what's the purpose of spending twice as
much and getting there later?

[hoya]

To a point, yes. I've noticed that people will only pay what appears
to be and exuberant amount of money if the trip will prevent them
from losing an exuberant amount of money.

Mom and Pop ain't gonna spend anything near $75 apiece for a
trip to T-Town and back. If in fact $75 is for a round trip ticket. Hell,
Greyhound is less expensive and can get them there for @ $45.

Except for being noticed what's the purpose of spending twice as
much and getting there later?

Depends. It all depends. My 8 year old nephew loves trains. Thinks they're awesome. I might buy a few tickets just to take him on a fun trip. How many other uncles are out there who are looking for something like that? How many people (who aren't driving for whatever reason) wouldn't consider using a bus but would consider riding a train? Even if it is just one in a thousand people, that might be enough to support a route like this.

Right now this city may be on the wrong side of economies of scale. Trains may not be the fastest, or the cheapest, mode of transportation we have available. We'd need a lot more routes and a lot more passengers before most people would consider using them regularly. But that doesn't mean there aren't people who will spend that kind of money for that kind of service. The more attractions we get downtown, and the better our public transportation system becomes, the more people will consider it a viable option. If someone could take the train from Tulsa, and then be able to go see any of the attractions they'd normally want to see in OKC, and then go back to Tulsa, all without ever needing a car (thanks to our future awesome streetcar), it may be worth it to leave the car behind and take the train.

I drive an F-150. I probably spend right more than $75 to go to Tulsa and back in gas and tolls. If I could kick back and sleep instead of driving all that way, and was able to get around Tulsa quickly and easily once I got there? Sounds good to me.

[OKVision4U]

Thanks for shedding some light to an airline employee...I never would have understood that otherwise.



Bombardier has built thousands of planes. Oh...and what else do they build? Rail Vehicles - Trains, Metros, Monorails and Locomotives - Bombardier

Boeing has released many reports over the last few years that support intermodal solutions that combine air and HSR.

Yes, I knew that. Your connection w/ the airline industry is why you feel the best "next step" for OKC is what the ailine industry will provide us. The airline industry is providing OKC w/ less flights @ more cost / with less connections & fewer options. OKC will not get a HUB w/ 29 gates. LIke you said before, we would need to have aprox. 75 gates which would be a great cost to OKC ( 3x $$$ ). ...so the airport is NOT our answer.

Boeing released reports for the PR portion of the quarterly statements. That big bear will not be investing in the HSR community at all. That is not their intention.

[OKVision4U]

Again, what do you propose we do? Enough with the conjecture. Share your realistic ideas. I want to hear them. The city of Oklahoma city cannot reasonably be expected to build and own high speed rail lines and equipment for the purpose of people "passing through" OKC. That would be no better than them flying over us.

Well, therer is a long answer to all of that, but I will make it brief... New Commerce. New Industires that are not currently in our region. Millions of new people coming into our city ( the may stay a nite / have a dinner / catch a Thunder game / ??? ) taking the "outside $" and injecting it directly into our local economy. A World Class HSR HUB in OKC, you bet!

Eastcoast / Westcoast Corporations may chose to open a regional office / operations in OKC....we are centrally located ( cost less to move commodities ; ie Amazon in Coffeyville, KS ). This is the next step for the US. ...or would you want KC to have this?

[shawnw]

Tulsa is like an hour drive, sometimes and an hour and a half.... Dallas is about 2 1/2 to 3 hours.

:-) :-) :-) That explains why you like cars and highways so much, you like to go fast! :-) :-) :-)

In the hundreds if not thousands of times I've driven to Tulsa, going 80-85 in the 75 (and I have a pikepass so don't have to stop), I've never made it in an hour. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong? Hour and a half is the norm for me... and 3 hours is the norm for me to Dallas (without traffic).

But for the record, we're talking realistic driving and conditions to/from realistic places. Not everybody lives in Edmond and drives to South Tulsa and drives it on weekends when there's less traffic. If you drive from far south OKC to the Tulsa Airport area (where one of my commuting friends works) for example, you're dealing with traffic in both cities, both ways at times. It takes him just under two hours on a typical day. And he does this everyday. It doesn't even matter how long it takes YOU, he has daily datapoints to show real world nubmbers. Not that any of that matters. I'm just saying there are people who are doing it that would probably love not to if a fast train was available, that's all...

[venture]

Yes, I knew that. Your connection w/ the airline industry is why you feel the best "next step" for OKC is what the ailine industry will provide us. The airline industry is providing OKC w/ less flights @ more cost / with less connections & fewer options. OKC will not get a HUB w/ 29 gates. LIke you said before, we would need to have aprox. 75 gates which would be a great cost to OKC ( 3x $$$ ). ...so the airport is NOT our answer.

Boeing released reports for the PR portion of the quarterly statements. That big bear will not be investing in the HSR community at all. That is not their intention.

What? Where and when have I ever said such a thing. I think my position on the OKC air hub thing has been very clear on this board for years - LONG before you ever showed up. Now you are just making stuff up to justify this crazy nonsensical post of yours. So exactly what did you know since what you posted is factually wrong? Or are you finally admitting that the "facts" you are basing your positions on actually inaccurate and you know that?