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Thread: Fordson Hotel (formerly 21c Museum Hotel)

  1. #176
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    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    I also thought during the Chip Fudge OKC Central chat he said he was working on expanding west of Shartel...

  2. #177
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    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Incidentally, if the city's part of the deal (aside from tax incentives) were to P180 the streetscapes on Main and Sheridan to Classen, this would be the best time for it, less disruption to businesses that aren't there yet...

  3. #178
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    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    And if they did, would they be willing to include the Farmer's Market (seems like a good opportunity to do that).

    Important to remember just how much Steve has been pushing the idea that the Farmer's Market is the next big place. Maybe he knows about things that will help all this make more sense...

  4. #179

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Yes, Fudge owns the building just west of the Hart and is planning for storage and perhaps some retail in the front. He also said he wants to buy the property directly north of that but the present owner has been stubborn.


    But I ask again: What could possibly developed in this area in the next five years that would make this location much better??

    Several large housing developments would be a start, but as of now I haven't even heard a hint of anything like that.


    And no matter what is built, this building is still a long way from everything else worthwhile in downtown with no plan -- long-term or otherwise -- to even bring the streetcar in that direction.

  5. #180

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnw View Post
    I also thought during the Chip Fudge OKC Central chat he said he was working on expanding west of Shartel...
    Here is the chat transcipt you discussed:

    OKC Central Chat transcript, Sept. 20, 2013 | News OK

  6. #181

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnw View Post
    And if they did, would they be willing to include the Farmer's Market (seems like a good opportunity to do that).

    Important to remember just how much Steve has been pushing the idea that the Farmer's Market is the next big place. Maybe he knows about things that will help all this make more sense...
    Steve frequently teases about some big stuff coming yet to be revealed. If downtown OKC was to experience Charlotte or Austin-like development, then it's very possible that stretch could be developed and vibrant by 2020. What are the chances of that happening though?

  7. #182

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel considering OKC

    Just a thought. There are those that are very interested in seeing the county jail built anew away from DT, out near Choctaw as I recall. Those with that view haven't exactly been doing major leaps to try and salvage the existing jail, nor has anyone else.

    If a new jail site comes into play, the existing jail site wouldn't seem to be easy to repurpose. Seems it might come a tumbling down, making for another nice project site not so far north of their new hotel in the FJ space.

  8. #183
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    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    At 22 years old, building a new one and tearing down this one might be slightly less a debacle than tearing down Turner Field after 17 years... though I'm no fan of it being downtown by any means.

  9. #184

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Let's say there was a big movement to redo the streets and sidewalks in the west downtown / Farmer's Market area, complete with BID's, TIF dollars and other public incentives.

    Without some major employers and/or developments (besides this one hotel and a couple of small buildings in Film Row) I would still say this is an outrageous misappropriation of resources.


    Keep in mind that even with all the development along 10th & 13th in Midtown, very few of those streets have been redone and just try walking from the CBD. Terrible or non-existent sidewalks, vacant lots everywhere, dilapidated structures, etc.

    Then let's stroll over to Deep Deuce and East Bricktown, where you have these same issues.

    THEN let's take on Core to Shore, a huge area where we are investing a hundred million just for a park and yet the surrounding areas are worse than west downtown.

    And these are just in the central core. The huge majority of our major thoroughfares throughout the City do not have sidewalks and the current project will only make a very small dent.


    I've said this so many times: We need to create critical mass in a few select areas instead of spreading our resources all over the bloody central city. It's just like suburban sprawl, just on a smaller scale.

  10. #185

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel considering OKC

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinpate View Post
    Just a thought. There are those that are very interested in seeing the county jail built anew away from DT, out near Choctaw as I recall. Those with that view haven't exactly been doing major leaps to try and salvage the existing jail, nor has anyone else.

    If a new jail site comes into play, the existing jail site wouldn't seem to be easy to repurpose. Seems it might come a tumbling down, making for another nice project site not so far north of their new hotel in the FJ space.
    This building is not only a mess for it's intended purpose, repurposing it would be even a bigger challenge.

    It has very narrow window slits engineered into it's structure, among other limitations.

  11. #186
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    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Keep in mind that even with all the development along 10th & 13th in Midtown, very few of those streets have been redone and just try walking from the CBD. Terrible or non-existent sidewalks, vacant lots everywhere, dilapidated structures, etc.

    Then let's stroll over to Deep Deuce and East Bricktown, where you have these same issues.

    THEN let's take on Core to Shore, a huge area where we are investing a hundred million just for a park and yet the surrounding areas are worse than west downtown.
    I agree about the walkability (or lack thereof) of those areas, however none of those as of yet have a logical connection to P180 streetscapes (although P180 does creep into midtown on Harvey, Robinson and along 5th) where as Main and Sheridan just kind of stop. I was only advocating the continuation. (Similarly one could argue for the continuation of P180 up Harvey and/or Robinson, which would be fine by me, and would be a benefit to OCU law).

  12. #187

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Pete, your posts today seem to indicate that you think this is all a big mistake and are hoping that 21c will change their mind and pick a better location.
    Is that the case?

    I understand your concerns, and certainly they are all valid points. But there is not one thing that you pointed out that isn't perfectly well known to Craig Greenberg and the others at 21c involved in selecting the Fred Jones Building. And they are still going ahead. That speaks volumes to me.

  13. #188

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Remember, they already cut about 40% of the original scope of P180 which is why there isn't much connection between the existing work and the other urban districts.

    I'm saying that sort of thing should be done first, long before we go off in yet another direction.

  14. #189

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    I am too starting to sour to the location of this hotel. This would be so much better if it were to compliment one of the already existing districts rather than be the anchor for an entirely new one. Part of OKC's problem is no critical mass. There are several districts all competing right now and in the end there needs to be winners and losers and the winners will need to take it to the next level.

  15. #190

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Wish they would've built new on the canal corner.

  16. #191

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Hotel Black, First National, Rock Island Plow, Hightower, 1101 N. Broadway, Mayfair Apartments, Dowell Center (remember, it has a historical facade under that cladding)... Lots of smaller, historical buildings that could have space added.

    They have also done new construction (Bentonville).

  17. #192
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    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Remember, they already cut about 40% of the original scope of P180 which is why there isn't much connection between the existing work and the other urban districts.

    I'm saying that sort of thing should be done first, long before we go off in yet another direction.
    I agree much was cut, but I thought that was all in the CBD. When I go back to early posts in the P180 thread (in particular post #70), I don't really see that much intended interconnectivity in the original planning, though I only went 3 pages into the thread, so that may have changed, but my memory just isn't that good.

  18. #193

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    They cut almost all of EKG which would have provided a huge link between Bricktown and the CBD.

    And even though P180 dollars were never allocated for this, try walking on Dewey, Lee or Shartel north of 5th up towards Midtown. The sidewalks are either completely gone or deplorable.


    My point is that why would we spend millions on yet ANOTHER area when a good chunk of the main part of our downtown -- and a linkage between areas with hundreds of millions in private investment with much more possible -- looks like post WWII Germany?


  19. #194

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Best place IMO would be the U-Haul building in B-Town.....now that would be the perfect location.

  20. #195

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Hotel Black, First National, Rock Island Plow, Hightower, 1101 N. Broadway, Mayfair Apartments, Dowell Center (remember, it has a historical facade under that cladding)... Lots of smaller, historical buildings that could have space added.

    They have also done new construction (Bentonville).
    I agree. Midtown would be perfect for this if it were to be new construction. If not, there are plenty of other choices that would help out existing recovering districts downtown. Even Lower Bricktown if they were able to strike a deal with Hogan for some of the parking lots would be better than way out in the middle of nowhere.

  21. #196

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this is a big gamble.

    I actually drove past this area on Sunday just to see what it was like. Lots of "dead space", near jail, only activity is industrial firms, significant homeless population (a lot of which were pushed westward when midtown and SoSA was cleaned up). The area is just nowhere close to being stabilized. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in to listed to 21c's decision making. Are these hotels pretty self sufficient and people wouldn't really be leaving? Because that's the only reason I could think of in which they wouldn't be bothered by the surrounding areas. But hey if they think they can be a leader in revitalizing the area then go for it.

    In a perfect world, this would be about 2 or 3 blocks to the south and east so it could at least be closer to Film Row.

  22. #197

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellaboo View Post
    Best place IMO would be the U-Haul building in B-Town.....now that would be the perfect location.
    That would be awesome. I doubt U-Haul would sell though. They seem intent on keeping that location.

  23. #198

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    My point is that why would we spent millions on yet ANOTHER area when a good chunk of the main part of our downtown -- and a linkage between areas with hundreds of millions in private investment with much more possible -- looks like post WWII Germany?
    Couldn't agree more. I get depressed every time I go to Midtown. Despite all the progress, there are still far too many boarded up buildings and urban prairie to say the district is anywhere close to having "arrived." I see huge potential in that area and if all resources were focused on just a few areas like Midtown, Uptown, Auto Alley, and eventually Core2Shore we could end up with something really awesome. Or, we could end up with twice as many half-arsed "districts" that don't even come close to measuring up with the urban districts in cities half the size of OKC. It's pretty simple when you get down to it.

  24. #199

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

    So, why would they steer them here?


    And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

    How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?

  25. #200

    Default Re: 21c Museum Hotel to Fred Jones Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

    So, why would they steer them here?


    And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

    How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?
    So the city should deny TIF funding? Which would effectively kill the project.

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