Lindsey Street

[Jersey Boss]

Rather you care to admit it or not the real facts are that Lindsey Street is the most congested street in the entire OKC metro area and it also has the highest accident rate for a street in the OKC area as it is now..It wouldn’t take much to improve the situation, and they will!

Really? If this is not just rhetoric or hyperbole, I would like to know what the basis of this statement is. Smells fishy to this observer.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Probably not even in the top 10.

[Geographer]

If you think expanding Lindsey will solve all traffic problems, I advise you to travel down Robinson between Flood and Porter during in the mornings and early evenings. That whole area is a nightmare...and it even has 4 lanes! (plus 4 lighted intersections that constantly stop traffic)

[Plutonic Panda]

4 lanes each way or 4 lanes total? If they really want to be ahead of the game, I'd say widen it to six. You have to have everything working together though in order for it to work. You can't just widen it and not change the traffic lights or consolidate all of the traffic to that road and not widen other roads. Everything has to work together in order for traffic to flow smoothly.

[venture]

4 lanes each way or 4 lanes total? If they really want to be ahead of the game, I'd say widen it to six. You have to have everything working together though in order for it to work. You can't just widen it and not change the traffic lights or consolidate all of the traffic to that road and not widen other roads. Everything has to work together in order for traffic to flow smoothly.

4 lanes total...if they would go anymore than that, the person approving it should be taken out back and slapped upside the head for being an idiot. Widen it to 6? Really? You really don't believe in having any foot traffic in a neighborhood do you?

[kevinpate]

If you think expanding Lindsey will solve all traffic problems, I advise you to travel down Robinson between Flood and Porter during in the mornings and early evenings. That whole area is a nightmare...and it even has 4 lanes! (plus 4 lighted intersections that constantly stop traffic)

A fair chunk of the traffic you reference is created by traffic to/from Norman North, folks using Flood and Robinson as the conduit in/out of town it is intended to be, and a major artery for west side to get to the DT core. If that combination did not generate a lot fo traffic for the morning and pm drive it would be a larger concern in my mind.

[Plutonic Panda]

4 lanes total...if they would go anymore than that, the person approving it should be taken out back and slapped upside the head for being an idiot. Widen it to 6? Really? You really don't believe in having any foot traffic in a neighborhood do you?

Ok, then that is part of the problem why is it so congested. It encourages business to relocate knowing they will be safe from any major traffic issue while knowing that the street still has a large traffic count. You apparently hate 6 lane streets for some reason, but I don't see any neighborhoods around that street. So I am not sure how that would affect walkability.

[venture]

Ok, then that is part of the problem why is it so congested. It encourages business to relocate knowing they will be safe from any major traffic issue while knowing that the street still has a large traffic count. You apparently hate 6 lane streets for some reason, but I don't see any neighborhoods around that street. So I am not sure how that would affect walkability.

This is the problem. People are so short term minded and no one ever PLANS for the future anymore. This is what several of us have been getting at. We've been over this too much already. If you haven't been able to get a clue on the position of those who were wanting more from this, then there is no point.

Do I hate 6 lanes roads? No. They have their place. Usually as major arteries to get commuters from one part of town to another, not as a gateway street to an area where people want to be build more density. Shields is a good example. It is a commuter artery to move people. How has that street done for business development? How walkable is Broadway south of 2nd in your beloved Edmond? You really don't get any sense of density, to the extent you can in a suburb, until you get to downtown.

Do you even understand what walkability truly means? Here is a hint...it is not walking across a vast river of concrete or several hundred yards from one business to the next. As far as no neighborhood...depends again on how you define it. The entire street goes right into a neighborhood and lets not discount the fact that behind the one row of businesses on both sides you have nothing but houses. Then of course you also have probably a half dozen apartment complexes as well.

Look...some people have the ability to envision what something could be, and some can only see what is about to smack them in the face. Not everyone has a great imagination or an expansive mind. The vision people had for what Lindsey could become, with proper planning, is a lot better than what we are going to get stuck with.

[ou48A]

Really? If this is not just rhetoric or hyperbole, I would like to know what the basis of this statement is. Smells fishy to this observer.

When things about Norman start smelling fishy that's usually when you know you are a depending on a form like this way to much to keep you well informed.
I would suggest that you attend or watch the Norman city council meetings and the the other discussions they have on TV, where its more than just the platitudes of this thread.

Probably not even in the top 10.

It's not even a little bit surprising that you would be so far off base.
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There has been a lot wrong said in this thread...... One of the biggest misconceptions on this thread is that Norman traffic is not congested when in fact 2 city of Norman surveys show that Norman congestion is one of the residents biggest concerns!!!!!!!! Its only a very tiny and often radical part of the community that believes otherwise.

The fact is that west Lindsey is the most accident and congested street in the greater OKC area and maybe the state. Those who think otherwise need to watch this video where a city of Norman expert in his area of specialty discusses those facts.

He completely destroys many of the arguments that have been on this thread with facts.
He also talks about a wide range of problems and offers clarity to the misinformed.

[catch22]

most congested? LOLOolOOLLlolol000L

I can think of about 20 streets that are more congested.

[soonerliberal]

The fact is that west Lindsey is the most accident and congested street in the greater OKC area and maybe the state. Those who think otherwise need to watch this video where a city of Norman expert in his area of specialty discusses those facts.

Robinson on both sides of I-35 is busier than Lindsey around the clock on a consistent basis. Hwy 9 during rush hour is busier than Lindsey during rush hour. 12th St NE near Alameda is busier than Lindsey on a consistent basis. Just 3 examples...

[venture]

most congested? LOLOolOOLLlolol000L

I can think of about 20 streets that are more congested.

Hey now, you need add more !!!!!!!!!!!! to your post to prove your point.

Anyway, we've done this go around for how long now. Here is how it'll go down... several of us will post ideas and thoughts from experts that counter established thinking. We'll also provide facts to counter arguments that get ignored. Then we'll have counter points made that blatantly ignore what we are saying and go on about something other stuff or pick up on points that some random expert says only once their previous argument has already been disproved. Then we'll get the posts about how great the new design is, how it needs to be bigger, and the circle .... of OU48 and PluPan liking each others posts. Does that about sum it up?

Decision has been made, some agree - some don't. Norman is just putting a band-aid on the situation and it'll still result in congestion and accidents. Anyone who doesn't get that is either blind or just doesn't have the gift of common sense and vision. What's done is done. Norman is bound to fall in the trap of being transformed into a completely suburb like Edmond with no sense of uniqueness.

[Geographer]

Robinson on both sides of I-35 is busier than Lindsey around the clock on a consistent basis. Hwy 9 during rush hour is busier than Lindsey during rush hour. 12th St NE near Alameda is busier than Lindsey on a consistent basis. Just 3 examples...

GASP! But those are at least 4 lane roads!! How can that be!?

But in all seriousness, increasing lanes will increase your capacity for a time, but it also will induce demand. It's been proven time and time again.

The constant stop-go caused by the excess of street lights combined with an excess of curb cut drive-ins causes the crashes...not the road itself. The more conflict points you have the more accidents you are going to have. Adding more lanes does not decrease the amount of conflict points a street has...adding in another light at Wylie will only add to the stop-go nature of Lindsey.

[Just the facts]

The fact is that west Lindsey is the most accident and congested street in the greater OKC area and maybe the state. Those who think otherwise need to watch this video where a city of Norman expert in his area of specialty discusses those facts.

Asking a Director of Public Works if roads should be widened is like asking the CEO of Lockheed Martin if we should go to war in the Ukraine. What did you expect him to say?

[venture]

GASP! But those are at least 4 lane roads!! How can that be!?

But in all seriousness, increasing lanes will increase your capacity for a time, but it also will induce demand. It's been proven time and time again.

The constant stop-go caused by the excess of street lights combined with an excess of curb cut drive-ins causes the crashes...not the road itself. The more conflict points you have the more accidents you are going to have. Adding more lanes does not decrease the amount of conflict points a street has...adding in another light at Wylie will only add to the stop-go nature of Lindsey.

Not to mention, look at the average speed of the drivers where we have a similar setup to what West Lindsey will have. Lindsey from Jenkins to the tracks is in this similar configuration and those kids aren't doing 35. 24th Ave NW yesterday...I was doing around 45 and people were flying by me. Heck, even on Robinson the average speed gets around 50 by the airport and well over 35 east of the underpass. What we'll likely end up with is a Lindsey where people are going to be doing well more than 35 mph. Without a reduction in curb cuts and lights, this is going to lead to more rear impact crashes and probably much more substantial ones.

[venture]

Asking a Director of Public Works if roads should be widened is like asking the CEO of Lockheed Martin if we should go to war in the Ukraine. What did you expect him to say?

You are talking to an individual that also went for months on this thread about football traffic being the main reason for this and then when the Transcript had a quote for the fire chief, suddenly emergency response was his number one reason. Just ignore the part where there is a roundabout a little over a quarter mile away from the fire station on East Main.

I think we all pretty much gave in to the 4 lane road. Whatever. If congestion is something that needs to be tackled you don't add in more traffic lights and curb cuts. You build in roundabouts, 2-lane ones just like what Manhattan, KS has going into KSU's campus, to keep traffic flowing and mitigate speed. That also makes it much more pedestrian friendly and encourages new developments to build closer to the street - encouraging walkability and higher density development...raising property values...increasing tax income.

[Plutonic Panda]

NORMAN — A plan to widen W Lindsey Street from three to four lanes has business owner Tim Sweatte concerned that his drive-in restaurant may suffer economically from the change.

Classic 50’s Drive-In has been in the same location at 1521 W Lindsey for 57 years, Sweatte said.

“It’s been a successful run. Lindsey was still a dirt road when my father, Juel Glenn Sweatte, opened it as Glenn’s Drive-In,” Sweatte said.

The drive-in later was operated for 28 years as a Sonic, until becoming the Classic 50’s Drive-In in 1985. Its main business — at least, 80 percent — is college students, Sweatte said.

Widening Lindsey to four lanes between 24th Avenue SW and Berry Road, with a landscaped median, will mean cars leaving his drive-in will have to exit west away from the University of Oklahoma campus.

“Will college students like that? Most of them are needing to go east toward campus,” he said. “Right now, drivers can choose to go either east or west. I’m two-dimensional. I feel like they are trying to make me one-dimensional.”

W Lindsey business owners in Norman concerned about widening plan | News OK

I think this will be good. All in all, I still don't like round-a-bouts and when you hit a light green, you are able to move much faster than having a guaranteed slowdown at a round-a-bout, but I am glad there are bike lanes in this for sure. They need to be separated from the road though.

[BG918]

I'd like to see Norman's bike lanes painted red, not just in OU's color but also to be more visible. The improvements to the sidewalks will be really good for this corridor, and the landscaping/trees.

[gamecock]

"Both Sweatte and Brennan are concerned that landscaping in the median also will reduce their visibility."

This is such a frustrating comment. Many places around here desperately need more landscaping, and then you get comments like this. Hopefully, their concerns will be disregarded.

[venture]

W Lindsey business owners in Norman concerned about widening plan | News OK

I think this will be good. All in all, I still don't like round-a-bouts and when you hit a light green, you are able to move much faster than having a guaranteed slowdown at a round-a-bout, but I am glad there are bike lanes in this for sure. They need to be separated from the road though.

Well the trick with a roundabout setup is that the speed stays fairly consistent. So instead of going form 35 to 0 to 20 to 35 to 10 and every other variation as traffic and the lights moderate flow, with a roundabout you can keep things pretty steady. Doesn't meant there won't be any yielding at times, but it also means it'll be safer for bikes and pedestrians. I'm perfectly fine with a 4 lane road with a very well done median. Manhattan, KS has a roundabout on Bluemont heading into KSU's campus that is 2 lane around. It also have a monument of some sort in the middle of it. I would love to see these along Lindsey with various monuments for Norman and OU to just bring something extra to the corridor.

[Plutonic Panda]

Well the trick with a roundabout setup is that the speed stays fairly consistent. So instead of going form 35 to 0 to 20 to 35 to 10 and every other variation as traffic and the lights moderate flow, with a roundabout you can keep things pretty steady. Doesn't meant there won't be any yielding at times, but it also means it'll be safer for bikes and pedestrians. I'm perfectly fine with a 4 lane road with a very well done median. Manhattan, KS has a roundabout on Bluemont heading into KSU's campus that is 2 lane around. It also have a monument of some sort in the middle of it. I would love to see these along Lindsey with various monuments for Norman and OU to just bring something extra to the corridor.

well, the other part here would be getting people to properly use the roundabout. When I get behind people on the roundabouts in Midtown, they'll often come to a full stop even when there is no people, so hopefully they could used to them....

[venture]

well, the other part here would be getting people to properly use the roundabout. When I get behind people on the roundabouts in Midtown, they'll often come to a full stop even when there is no people, so hopefully they could used to them....

We have one here on Main Street in East Norman and I haven't experienced any issues with people, even when traffic can be pretty heavy in the afternoon.

[Geographer]

Well, let's beat this dead horse again...

First, I do agree that it will be harder to enter this businesses with the median....

....But that is because there are no roundabouts at the intersections for easy turn-around on Lindsey. It's generally not safe to do a U-turn on Lindsey in a turn-lane at an intersection because of the constant flow of traffic. If this business owner would like to make it easier for people to enter/exit his business in either direction, then he needs to be clamoring for roundabouts.

Using his example about college students not being able to head back east when leaving Classics....they could simply drive 479 feet to the west, enter the roundabout, and have a very easy time driving around the roundabout until they are driving back east on Lindsey.

That's the beauty of roundabouts, it makes navigating and turning around much, much easier.

[Just the facts]

Where were these business owners when the City was making the decision? This train has already left the station. Maybe they should look into selling and moving their operations to the Downtown Norman/Campus Corner area where they don't need to worry about how people are going to drive to their business.

[Plutonic Panda]

We have one here on Main Street in East Norman and I haven't experienced any issues with people, even when traffic can be pretty heavy in the afternoon.

Well, for some reason, and I go to Browns nearly every day, people like to stop for no reason on them. Honestly, I am not against round-a-bouts; I even advocate for them to built in Edmond around the UCO campus and in downtown(I know you don't like me talking about Edmond here, but I just wanted to make sure you understand I am NOT against round-a-bouts).