Lindsey Street

[ou48A]

The city, OU & state should consider making Flood street one way north to Robinson after football games.

They need to better coordinate the traffic lights on Flood street and cover some stop signs.
They should look at doing this to others major Norman streets?

[BG918]

[*]Bike lane added, possible painted to a different color, and additional landscaping to provide a buffer with sidewalks.

Maybe a crimson-colored bike lane?

Sounds like they have a solid plan in place, hopefully it gets constructed that way. The sidewalks will be a huge improvement, especially between Berry and campus.

[ou48A]

Maybe a crimson-colored bike lane?

Sounds like they have a solid plan in place, hopefully it gets constructed that way. The sidewalks will be a huge improvement, especially between Berry and campus.

Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen any plans to offer even basic sidewalks from Berry to campus.
Clearly they are needed.

[venture]

Was anything mentioned about continuing to make Lindsey one way in places on football days?

I would imagine it would be one way from campus to Berry and then go two way with the divided median. Of course one way traffic on the roundabout at Berry probably would be pretty complex - depending on how many forward westbound lanes there are.

I think the biggest issue would be if they decide to put in additional roundabouts at Pickard, Flood, Chautauqua, and Elm. It would make sense that they add them in. We do run into space issues at most of those intersections though where the city would have to acquire some additional right of way to make it work.

The city, OU & state should consider making Flood street one way north to Robinson after football games.

They need to better coordinate the traffic lights on Flood street and cover some stop signs.
They should look at doing this to others major Norman streets?

I can't see it being feasible in that area. If it wasn't cutting completely through neighborhoods it would probably be feasible, but we aren't talking just a mile of road.

Chautauqua or Jenkins one way would probably be better, to the south, pushing more traffic on to Hwy 9.

Maybe a crimson-colored bike lane?

Sounds like they have a solid plan in place, hopefully it gets constructed that way. The sidewalks will be a huge improvement, especially between Berry and campus.

Keep in mind that this is just for the I-35 to Berry portion. I would imagine we'll see something in a couple years for the next segment. OU is going to handle the portion on campus. I think crimson colored lanes sound good though.

[Just the facts]

Maybe a crimson-colored bike lane?

How about a checkerboard crimson and cream bike lane (and maybe crosswalks)?

[kevinpate]

The city, OU & state should consider making Flood street one way north to Robinson after football games.

They need to better coordinate the traffic lights on Flood street and cover some stop signs.
They should look at doing this to others major Norman streets?

Or, stadium event participants could simply accept that 80,000+ spectators are not going to go from seat to gate to car to NW Norman residential or hit interstate at speed without a wee bit of inconvenience. Besides, I would think one could funnel more cars faster out E Lindsey, up and down 12th than adding to the mix of folks using Lindsey West through its narrowest path. If I wanted 35 or NW Norman after a game, E Lindsey to 12th to Tecumseh and then west would be my magic carpet.

[Just the facts]

Considering most fans start leaving half way through the 4th quarter, if you just wait until the clock reads 0:00 most traffic will be gone by the time you get to the car.

[ou48A]

Considering most fans start leaving half way through the 4th quarter, if you just wait until the clock reads 0:00 most traffic will be gone by the time you get to the car.

That's not at all true.......... In FACT its just exactly the opposite!


The traffic becomes very backed up for the people who wait until the end of the game because so many leave early to beat traffic.
One little problem on a street such as Lindsey causes hours worth of problems for some.

[ou48A]

Or, stadium event participants could simply accept that 80,000+ spectators are not going to go from seat to gate to car to NW Norman residential or hit interstate at speed without a wee bit of inconvenience. Besides, I would think one could funnel more cars faster out E Lindsey, up and down 12th than adding to the mix of folks using Lindsey West through its narrowest path. If I wanted 35 or NW Norman after a game, E Lindsey to 12th to Tecumseh and then west would be my magic carpet.

The problem with that line of thinking is that the OU football traffic congestion is a safety hazard that has been noted by officials.

Due to new city parking and street restrictions along with stadium expansion and the thousands who now come to tail-gate only and never attend the games the congestion problem has grown much worse in recent years.

Better organization is needed.

PS: Via many years of experience I have discovered there are far better way that save a lot more time than your magic carpet solution

[ou48A]

I can't see it being feasible in that area. If it wasn't cutting completely through neighborhoods it would probably be feasible, but we aren't talking just a mile of road.

Chautauqua or Jenkins one way would probably be better, to the south, pushing more traffic on to Hwy 9.



Keep in mind that this is just for the I-35 to Berry portion. I would imagine we'll see something in a couple years for the next segment. OU is going to handle the portion on campus. I think crimson colored lanes sound good though.

It may or may not be feasible to make Flood one way, but they will need to do something when Lindsey street is rebuilt.
As it is now Highway 9 is very clogged for at least 2 hr after close games. Most experienced people avoid it because of its congestion.

[ou48A]

How about a checkerboard crimson and cream bike lane (and maybe crosswalks)?

It probably won't fly with the anti OU crowd in Norman but I actually like that idea.

[BG918]

Keep in mind that this is just for the I-35 to Berry portion. I would imagine we'll see something in a couple years for the next segment. OU is going to handle the portion on campus. I think crimson colored lanes sound good though.

Any idea what the timeline would be to improve Lindsey from Berry to Jenkins? Is that considered Phase III? Phase I being Classen to Jenkins and Phase II being 35 to Berry. That area really needs sidewalks.

[ou48A]

The time line will depend a lot on over coming the opposition.
The opposition is in love with the trees and the setting.

The additional right-of-way could be taken 100% from the north side of the street. This would leave the nice homes on the south side street intact. But it would alow enough room for 2 lanes in each direction, wide side walks and a bike path.

But some of the big old trees could be transplanted. I have seen this done.

New and better tree species that would better suited for our area could be planted.
I would love to see a verity of trees that have showy fall and spring colors.

[Questor]

Please tell me they aren't going to start this Lindsey work until after the I-35 nightmare has wrapped up....

I like many aspects of the plan, but I really dislike the traffic circle idea. I've driven through many in other states, and despise the small ones which I assume these will be. I'm having a lot of trouble picturing in my mind how that doesn't cause problems on game days.

[venture]

The time line will depend a lot on over coming the opposition.
The opposition is in love with the trees and the setting.

In case you didn't notice, your "opposition" is getting pretty much what they want with the current Lindsey project.

[QUOTE=ou48A;670782]The additional right-of-way could be taken 100% from the north side of the street. This would leave the nice homes on the south side street intact. But it would alow enough room for 2 lanes in each direction, wide side walks and a bike path.

Wow. So there are no nice homes on the north side? Really. We've been over this before, but I guess you need pictures to learn...

First off...Berry to Pickard....
Plenty of room until you get down the hill. South side there is little to no room with structures built very close to the street. North side roughly the same. There are a couple low priced properties here, but apparently those $190-300K homes on the north side don't count as "nice" in OU48's world.



Pickard to Chautauqua...

Space gets to be even more of a problem with many structures near the road. Variety of property values on both sides of the street, so there isn't a case of "ewww ghetto North side" versus "my gas doesn't smell South side".



Finally Chautauqua to Campus...

Same as the previous, but a little more room and low value properties on the SOUTH side of the street. However, you get into commercial property too which is lower in value.

But some of the big old trees could be transplanted. I have seen this done.

New and better tree species that would better suited for our area could be planted.
I would love to see a verity of trees that have showy fall and spring colors.

Sure you could transplant, at a very high cost, and at the risk of killing the tree. I don't see how you could say these trees aren't good for the area since those in Central Norman are pretty strong trees compared to the pathetic things you get in Suburbiaville.

[venture]

Please tell me they aren't going to start this Lindsey work until after the I-35 nightmare has wrapped up....

I like many aspects of the plan, but I really dislike the traffic circle idea. I've driven through many in other states, and despise the small ones which I assume these will be. I'm having a lot of trouble picturing in my mind how that doesn't cause problems on game days.

Well they are on a fixed timeline due to the bond backing this has. I also think when the Lindsey bridge is getting torn up, it would be a great time to get it done since traffic will be lower.

Traffic circles are going to be a huge help to keep traffic moving, which in of itself will increase the capacity of the road. Game day setup would be interesting, but I think this becomes the situation of 350 days outweighs just 6 (give or take) days a year. If I understand things correctly, the traffic circles will be larger than what we see on Main Street since it'll be 2 lanes each direction. That right there would equal the capacity we have now on game days.

[ou48A]

Wow. So there are no nice homes on the north side? Really. We've been over this before, but I guess you need pictures to learn...

I never said there are no nice homes on the north side of Lindsey. There are a few decent homes on the north side but regardless of this issue there is nothing on the north side that should prevent eliminating the inconvenience for many thousand of people each day.... clearly the homes on the south side are generally nicer and that's why taking the right-of-way from the north side makes the most sense.



What I'm talking about is helping the maximum number of people while providing the least disruption to the fewest numbers of people. Buying out a handful of property on the north side of Lindsey accomplish this goal and it can be done in a very nice tasteful way.

[ou48A]

.

I think this becomes the situation of 350 days outweighs just 6 (give or take) days a year.

There's where you are wrong.

The home OU football games are absolutely vital for donations to OU academics and athletics and because of this Football traffic on Lindsey absolutely out weighs whatever happens doing the rest of year, this is without doubt.

Whoever doesn’t accommodate game day traffic on Lindsey is an absolute fool because as it is there are already very wealthy donors who are skipping a few home games because of Norman's congestion. To Make it any worse is extremely short sighted and stupid unless you want unhappy or disengaged donors over an improperly built street.... And there are people in Norman who would love nothing more.

[venture]

I never said there are no nice homes on the north side of Lindsey. There are a few decent homes on the north side but regardless of this issue there is nothing on the north side that should prevent eliminating the inconvenience for many thousand of people each day.... clearly the homes on the south side are generally nicer and that's why taking the right-of-way from the north side makes the most sense.

What I'm talking about is helping the maximum number of people while providing the least disruption to the fewest numbers of people. Buying out a handful of property on the north side of Lindsey accomplish this goal and it can be done in a very nice tasteful way.

Ahhh...so 200-250K qualifies as "decent" these days? I guess my way of thinking has just been so clouded being down here mixing with the common people. I guess providing pictures and proof of properties in that stretch being very mixed, along with very little room to navigate the concrete monstrosity you want, just isn't going to open your eyes to reality of the situation.

There's where you are wrong.

The home OU football games are absolutely vital for donations to OU academics and athletics and because of this Football traffic on Lindsey absolutely out weighs whatever happens doing the rest of year, this is without doubt.

Whoever doesn’t accommodate game day traffic on Lindsey is an absolute fool because as it is there are already very wealthy donors who are skipping a few home games because of Norman's congestion. To Make it any worse is extremely short sighted and stupid unless you want unhappy or disengaged donors over an improperly built street.... And there are people in Norman who would love nothing more.

Lindsey will be 2 lanes each way ones you get to Berry coming from campus. That equals what we have right now on game days. So that's solved. We don't know yet if they would be able to do both sides of Lindsey as one way, but in reality it shouldn't be needed.

While we are on the subject of stupid and short sighted...

Exactly how much room do you think it is going to take to do what you want, 4 lanes from Berry to campus, with large sidewalks and bike lanes? It just isn't going to happen. We are more likely to see a 2-lane Lindsey remain, with roundabouts replacing lights, and new sidewalks put in with bike lanes on the shoulders. This would provide a much better approach to campus and would also keep traffic flowing. The back ups will then hit at the crosswalk lights on campus which is an OU problem. David Boren has already said he is completely against widening Lindsey any further through campus, and I feel most are going to go with his opinion.

Let's be honest. You are apparently upset that you may not be getting what you wanted. You wanted a typical 4 lane road with a center turn lane all down Lindsey. That's not likely to happen. Instead the momentum appears to be behind a very well designed, thought out gateway into Norman that will provide a safer and logistically better roadway.

Lastly, for any city it is going to be tough to accommodate 80,000 people flocking into watch a game in a city of 110,000. There are going to be congestion issues. People that are hoping for no traffic are just...well short sighted and stupid. They could do all the improvements in the world, but there is still going to be massive congestions before and after games.

[Just the facts]

OU48A - are you seriously suggesting that Norman should build a road network capable of carrying game day traffic 6 times a year instead of building one using the other 359 days as the design standard? Maybe OU should double the price of the tickets and cut the seating capacity in half.

[ou48A]

Ahhh...so 200-250K qualifies as "decent" these days? I guess my way of thinking has just been so clouded being down here mixing with the common people. I guess providing pictures and proof of properties in that stretch being very mixed, along with very little room to navigate the concrete monstrosity you want, just isn't going to open your eyes to reality of the situation.



Lindsey will be 2 lanes each way ones you get to Berry coming from campus. That equals what we have right now on game days. So that's solved. We don't know yet if they would be able to do both sides of Lindsey as one way, but in reality it shouldn't be needed.

While we are on the subject of stupid and short sighted...

Exactly how much room do you think it is going to take to do what you want, 4 lanes from Berry to campus, with large sidewalks and bike lanes? It just isn't going to happen. We are more likely to see a 2-lane Lindsey remain, with roundabouts replacing lights, and new sidewalks put in with bike lanes on the shoulders. This would provide a much better approach to campus and would also keep traffic flowing. The back ups will then hit at the crosswalk lights on campus which is an OU problem. David Boren has already said he is completely against widening Lindsey any further through campus, and I feel most are going to go with his opinion.

Let's be honest. You are apparently upset that you may not be getting what you wanted. You wanted a typical 4 lane road with a center turn lane all down Lindsey. That's not likely to happen. Instead the momentum appears to be behind a very well designed, thought out gateway into Norman that will provide a safer and logistically better roadway.

Lastly, for any city it is going to be tough to accommodate 80,000 people flocking into watch a game in a city of 110,000. There are going to be congestion issues. People that are hoping for no traffic are just...well short sighted and stupid. They could do all the improvements in the world, but there is still going to be massive congestions before and after games.

I guess that your idea of protecting a hand full of people and a few trees is more importance to you than the negative impact the congestion has on thousand of people each day.

Less congestion would drive up land prices and make the redevelopment of the core of Norman more likely, not less....

You say that you want the core of Norman redeveloped but I guess you just don't understand that the core of Norman and OU will not grow to its potential like you want with roads that are congested. Less congestion would drive up land prices to levels that are needed to make redevelopment in the core of Norman more likely, not less....
You can look at Highland Park in Dallas and see what the Dallas toll way did to that area. And a good number of very expensive homes were torn down to make way for the toll road. Its seen very nice redevelopment and a rise in land because the new road made it a pretty essay commute to down town.

To reduce Normans congestion and to provide just basic sidewalks and a bike path a very few people are going to be relocated. Quite frankly your view on this comes across as juvenile, overly idealistic and not very well thought out.

The area in question is not really on campus, its on the west side of campus to Berry and Boren knows this.
Boren said that something could eventually be done in this area of Lindsey Street and you have no idea what he or the real decision makers have in mind.

[ou48A]

OU48A - are you seriously suggesting that Norman should build a road network capable of carrying game day traffic 6 times a year instead of building one using the other 359 days as the design standard? Maybe OU should double the price of the tickets and cut the seating capacity in half.

You probably have no idea how much money that has been donated to various OU causes as a direct result of the OU football program... There have been many students attending OU because of the football team who have later donated back to the University.

These donation have made OU a better university and have helped make Norman a better place to live. It would be very smart to do what it takes to see that these donations continue.
The donated amount, and by many times, far exceeds any cost that would be incurred for any type of new road construction in the area in question.
The congestion is increasingly having an negative impact on OU football. It shouldn’t be made worse !

The money spent in Norman during one home football game would exceed the cost of construction from Berry to Campus. Improving this stretch of Lindsey has been ignored for far to long even for every day needs.

[venture]

I guess that your idea of protecting a hand full of people and a few trees is more importance to you than the negative impact the congestion has on thousand of people each day.

Less congestion would drive up land prices and make the redevelopment of the core of Norman more likely, not less....

Yet you still fail to accept proof that properties in that area are already capable of going over $400-500K, even with the traffic issues there. It is pretty likely that putting in roundabouts and removing the lights, thereby having a consistent flow of traffic which in turn would reduce congestion and also increase capacity of the road. I see it more of respecting that neighborhood, the people that choose to live there, and it being one of the more scenic areas of Norman.

You say that you want the core of Norman redeveloped but I guess you just don't understand that the core of Norman and OU will not grow to its potential like you want with roads that are congested. Less congestion would drive up land prices to levels that are needed to make redevelopment in the core of Norman more likely, not less....
You can look at Highland Park in Dallas and see what the Dallas toll way did to that area. And a good number of very expensive homes were torn down to make way for the toll road. Its seen very nice redevelopment and a rise in land because the new road made it a pretty essay commute to down town.

The plans put forth will reduce congestion by providing a higher quality roadway and still maintain a quality of life. Also higher density development requires more walkability and less roadways to force people to use their cars to get around. However let's be honest, it isn't hard to get to that part of town as it is now. Main, Porter, Classen, and Jenkins all provide a good amount of flow into there. Not to mention Lindsey on the east side of Campus that was able to be put in without impacting many high value residences.

To reduce Normans congestion and to provide just basic sidewalks and a bike path a very few people are going to be relocated. Quite frankly your view on this comes across as juvenile, overly idealistic and not very well thought out.

Interesting that I'm being the juvenile when I've been able to back up and present ideas in pretty much every facet of my argument, but you continue to ignore facts when they stare are you straight in the face. To me that comes across as someone who is so arrogant in their own way of thinking that they will refuse to let facts get in their way to satisfy their wants regardless of who is impacts. I come to this discussion as someone who is actually is going to be impacted by these changes on a daily basis, so that means I'm invested in what happens to this area. More so than someone who feels they are among the "elite" citizenry of Norman camped out in the far Northwest boondocks of Norman who are more prone to favor turning Norman into a 100% bedroom/commuter community and be damned with the rest. Which I find unfortunate and feel true pity for someone suffering from that delusion.

The area in question is not really on campus, its on the west side of campus to Berry and Boren knows this.
Boren said that something could eventually be done in this area of Lindsey Street and you have no idea what he or the real decision makers have in mind.

He's been quite public about it, unless you are ignore his public statements as well like everything else. He doesn't want a 4 lane Lindsey running through campus. I'm quite aware of the area are are discussing being west of campus, since I provide maps and that whole thing. LOL Sigh

There definitely will be something done in this area and that is where all invested parties will be able to contribute and come up with the BEST solution, not one of just bulldoze and lay pavement and call it good. I could definitely see the ability to introduce a repaved two-lane Lindsey with bike lanes on both sides running through that area. Sidewalks are going to be tough without the removal of fixed wall structures people have in that area. Keep it down to that and you are looking at impacting maybe 3 houses at the most that are very close to the street. There might even be enough room to do a center median and divide the lanes provide additional landscaping abilities to bring it all together.

[CaptDave]

I guess that your idea of protecting a hand full of people and a few trees is more importance to you than the negative impact the congestion has on thousand of people each day.

What a socialist. The needs of many outweigh the wants of a few. Wonder if views are the same on taxation? Would it be possible to get agreement from ou48A with this statement - "I guess that your idea of protecting a hand full of people and a few incomes is more importance to you than the negative impact the reduction of support services has on thousands of people each day."

[ou48A]

Yet you still fail to accept proof that properties in that area are already capable of going over $400-500K, even with the traffic issues there. It is pretty likely that putting in roundabouts and removing the lights, thereby having a consistent flow of traffic which in turn would reduce congestion and also increase capacity of the road. I see it more of respecting that neighborhood, the people that choose to live there, and it being one of the more scenic areas of Norman.



The plans put forth will reduce congestion by providing a higher quality roadway and still maintain a quality of life. Also higher density development requires more walkability and less roadways to force people to use their cars to get around. However let's be honest, it isn't hard to get to that part of town as it is now. Main, Porter, Classen, and Jenkins all provide a good amount of flow into there. Not to mention Lindsey on the east side of Campus that was able to be put in without impacting many high value residences.



Interesting that I'm being the juvenile when I've been able to back up and present ideas in pretty much every facet of my argument, but you continue to ignore facts when they stare are you straight in the face. To me that comes across as someone who is so arrogant in their own way of thinking that they will refuse to let facts get in their way to satisfy their wants regardless of who is impacts. I come to this discussion as someone who is actually is going to be impacted by these changes on a daily basis, so that means I'm invested in what happens to this area. More so than someone who feels they are among the "elite" citizenry of Norman camped out in the far Northwest boondocks of Norman who are more prone to favor turning Norman into a 100% bedroom/commuter community and be damned with the rest. Which I find unfortunate and feel true pity for someone suffering from that delusion.



He's been quite public about it, unless you are ignore his public statements as well like everything else. He doesn't want a 4 lane Lindsey running through campus. I'm quite aware of the area are are discussing being west of campus, since I provide maps and that whole thing. LOL Sigh

There definitely will be something done in this area and that is where all invested parties will be able to contribute and come up with the BEST solution, not one of just bulldoze and lay pavement and call it good. I could definitely see the ability to introduce a repaved two-lane Lindsey with bike lanes on both sides running through that area. Sidewalks are going to be tough without the removal of fixed wall structures people have in that area. Keep it down to that and you are looking at impacting maybe 3 houses at the most that are very close to the street. There might even be enough room to do a center median and divide the lanes provide additional landscaping abilities to bring it all together.

In spite of the things that you think are important facts you still fail to grasp that if this is done right it can be so much more than you even think!
But leaving the biggest unsafe bottle neck in the entire state basically intact is not going to stand.

The solution requires more land and even if certain officials aren't saying it yet, nearly everybody knows that a solution will require more land. When you don't even have room for basic sidewalks you can not finesse your way around this problem by putting a band aid on it and have a successful outcome in the long run. Serious people know this.




You also fail to understand that its just not the thousands of folks who have their daily travels delayed who are adversely impacted by the congestion Its also anyone living in Norman or the state that could be directly or indirectly impacted.


Research and their jobs, including high wage spin off jobs are important to our entire states future economy. In increasing amounts building up the intellectual capital at OU will be a key ingredient to our states prosperity. Everyone in our state benefits in a more prosperous society....
The last thing busy researches want is to be wasting time. Congestion makes OU a less attractive place to do research and this would negatively impact the entire states economy.
So in this way the entire state has a stake in this and rightfully should have a say in what is done to enhance perhaps the states most important engines of future economic growth / wealth. For the state this is like an investment..... but all you want is tantamount to a band-aid approach that would only buy a limited amount of time and need to be redone in time.


I first met David Boren while he was Governor and have known a good number of people who have dealt with him at many levels...Your going to need to trust me on this. Boren isn't always as straight forward as you might believe and he has a history of this. There are some people in our state who have a great deal of influence who will likely help Mr. Boren out with his decision on this and on what gets built....They will certainly have more influence than you and more influence than any of the activist like you. I do know for a fact from personal contacts that several very big OU donors have grown increasingly tired of siting in Norman traffic because of antiquated congested streets. They will help Spanky decided.