Lindsey Street

[ou48A]

That should be "It's been pretty much its my way or the sidewalk/bike lane/muse/passage way/rail/bus/rickshaw/skinny street/avenue/boulevard/parkway/highway with your side. You see, this is the primary difference - my side wants equal consideration for all modes of transportation so that people can be free to choose how they want to live. Your side wants the automobile to be the only viable mode of transportation which forces everyone over the age 18 to own a car if they want to participate fully in society. We tried your way for 60 years - it isn't working.

You forget or refuse to recognize that the vast majority of people still preferred the freedom of the automobile and that this fact isn't going to significantly change no matter what happens. This is particularly true in places like Norman.

As far as it not working, That's pure crazy! The JUST THE FACTS are that in the past 60 years the USA has enjoyed the very highest standards of living in the history of the world.. This is in large part due to the automobile that has made people more productive and prosperous. Your thoughts that its isn't working just flat out fly in the face of actual real world facts.

We can be smarter in some areas but except for where there are areas of congestion there are no financially sound reasons to fundamentally change our basic transportation system and usage of the automobile.
Roundabouts and one lane in each direct on Lindsey isn't being smarter for the people.

[Plutonic Panda]

While I've never been, it is to my knowledge that NYC has a ton of one way streets. They are not converting and NYC is a very big and nice city. Please explain that!

[Plutonic Panda]

Here is piece from News9. Not very good, but I'll post it anyways.

''NORMAN, Oklahoma - Rumors are swirling over planned improvements for one of Norman's busiest roadways.
The plan is to accommodate Lindsey Street's traffic but now some people are worried about talk of roundabouts and even shrinking the road.

The intersection at Lindsey and Berry is one of the proposed changes in the project; putting in a roundabout down there to slow traffic down as drivers transition from the commercial into the residential areas here in Norman. The mayor here says that there's a lot of misunderstanding about the project.

Anyone with any questions or concerns over the Lindsey St. improvements can head to a public meeting this coming Tuesday night over at the Norman City Hall.''

Rumors Swirl About Changes To Busy Norman Thoroughfare - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

[Jersey Boss]

Here is piece from News9. Not very good, but I'll post it anyways.

''NORMAN, Oklahoma - Rumors are swirling over planned improvements for one of Norman's busiest roadways.
The plan is to accommodate Lindsey Street's traffic but now some people are worried about talk of roundabouts and even shrinking the road.

The intersection at Lindsey and Berry is one of the proposed changes in the project; putting in a roundabout down there to slow traffic down as drivers transition from the commercial into the residential areas here in Norman. The mayor here says that there's a lot of misunderstanding about the project.

Anyone with any questions or concerns over the Lindsey St. improvements can head to a public meeting this coming Tuesday night over at the Norman City Hall.''

Rumors Swirl About Changes To Busy Norman Thoroughfare - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Must be putting in his own two cents. Seems as if the roundabouts are being discussed as a more efficient way of moving traffic at speed, rather than stop and lurch from a traffic light.

[Jersey Boss]

You forget or refuse to recognize that the vast majority of people still preferred the freedom of the automobile and that this fact isn't going to significantly change no matter what happens. This is particularly true in places like Norman.

As far as it not working, That's pure crazy! The JUST THE FACTS are that in the past 60 years the USA has enjoyed the very highest standards of living in the history of the world.. This is in large part due to the automobile that has made people more productive and prosperous. Your thoughts that its isn't working just flat out fly in the face of actual real world facts.

We can be smarter in some areas but except for where there are areas of congestion there are no financially sound reasons to fundamentally change our basic transportation system and usage of the automobile.
Roundabouts and one lane in each direct on Lindsey isn't being smarter for the people.

Norway has the highest standard of living followed by Australia then the USA. Just sayin'

[soonerguru]

It's a cartoon because there is to little commonsense or listing to contrary opinions on your side.
It's been pretty much its my way or the highway with your side

People with far more expertise than you or others here along with a major university study understand the impact of what slowing traffic does to slow emergency response times and also how it can cost life.
Those opinions have far more credibility than yours or others posting here!

My sense is that you just like to argue, even when you're losing embarrassingly. Some people call this sophistry. You and Prunepicker should hang out.

[Just the facts]

While I've never been, it is to my knowledge that NYC has a ton of one way streets. They are not converting and NYC is a very big and nice city. Please explain that!

NYC was populated 150 years before the car existed and a large percentage of Manhattan residents have never owned a car. For most of NYC's history the automobile has never been the dominant form of transportation so one way streets never really mattered - however...

NYC is the midst of a pedestrian revolution (not to mention the all-powerful bike lobby).

Project for Public Spaces | Broadway Boulevard: Transforming Manhattan?s Most Famous Street

[Plutonic Panda]

Norway has the highest standard of living followed by Australia then the USA. Just sayin'

I believe Canada very recently exceeded the US living Standards. Also, I didn't know Australia was above the US, how is that? I didn't know Australia was that nice. It is one of the few places outside of the US I would willingly live though.

[Plutonic Panda]

NYC was populated 150 years before the car existed and a large percentage of Manhattan residents have never owned a car. For most of NYC's history the automobile has never been the dominant form of transportation so one way streets never really mattered - however...

NYC is the midst of a pedestrian revolution (not to mention the all-powerful bike lobby).

Project for Public Spaces | Broadway Boulevard: Transforming Manhattan?s Most Famous Street

I think NYC has always been very pedestrian friendly and every picture, live feed, or video I see, the streets are jam packed with cars(you know, I typed the cars are jam packed with streets and almost posted that lol ;P)

[Jersey Boss]

I believe Canada very recently exceeded the US living Standards. Also, I didn't know Australia was above the US, how is that? I didn't know Australia was that nice. It is one of the few places outside of the US I would willingly live though.

I used the 2010 Human Development Index. Info and particulars here:List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ou48A]

Norway has the highest standard of living followed by Australia then the USA. Just sayin'

I was unaware that their standards of living had moved ahead of ours but what I said is still basic true for the great bulk of those 60 years. But gee, maybe our leadership is bunk and wrong.

[ou48A]

My sense is that you just like to argue, even when you're losing embarrassingly. Some people call this sophistry. You and Prunepicker should hang out.

You are very sadly mistaken if you honestly think I'm losing anything. There are opinions that have far more knowable than anyone posting here and a major university study that backs my side of the discussion....Clearly the facts are that delaying emergency services cost lives. But I suppose you would rather build something that cost more live than it saves and that what the other side wants. Virtually every advanced major national society that has prosperity uses the automobile as its dominant transportation... It would be VERY foolish to believe that it won't remain true..

I can VERY safely assure you that several City of Norman officials also share many of my same traffic concerns!

[venture]

Here is piece from News9. Not very good, but I'll post it anyways.

''NORMAN, Oklahoma - Rumors are swirling over planned improvements for one of Norman's busiest roadways.
The plan is to accommodate Lindsey Street's traffic but now some people are worried about talk of roundabouts and even shrinking the road.

The intersection at Lindsey and Berry is one of the proposed changes in the project; putting in a roundabout down there to slow traffic down as drivers transition from the commercial into the residential areas here in Norman. The mayor here says that there's a lot of misunderstanding about the project.

Anyone with any questions or concerns over the Lindsey St. improvements can head to a public meeting this coming Tuesday night over at the Norman City Hall.''

Rumors Swirl About Changes To Busy Norman Thoroughfare - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Not seeing anything new and was probably tipped off by someone who is trying to stop all the roundabout discussion. It also seems people don't realize the speed Lindsey is at today. You have 35 mph until 24th, then it drops to 30 mph until Berry, and then it is 25 mph until you get through campus. A roundabout at Berry will have traffic speeds drop to around 20 mph through the roundabout, but never zero that you would have with a traffic light. Let's also remember that Lindsey is 2 lane east of there and Berry is 2 lane in both directions. During the peak time of day you are going to get cars backing up a good distance waiting on the lights to change. This is a situation where a roundabout would keep that from happening and keep traffic moving. However, it also has to be coupled with additional traffic flow assistance down stream (roundabouts east down Lindsey and better planning to the west). Without that you are going to just create another choke point at the next light.

You are very sadly mistaken if you honestly think I'm losing anything. There are opinions that have far more knowable than anyone posting here and a major university study that backs my side of the discussion....Clearly the facts are that delaying emergency services cost lives. But I suppose you would rather build something that cost more live than it saves and that what the other side wants. Virtually every advanced major national society that has prosperity uses the automobile as its dominant transportation... It would be VERY foolish to believe that it won't remain true..

I can VERY safely assure you that several City of Norman officials also share many of my same traffic concerns!

So far it is pretty clear who is against this and it isn't very many people. The key one is the city engineer's office, but they can easily be fired and replaced if they continue to do what the elected representatives want. Remember it comes down to council and at last count most are in favor of at least some roundabouts on Lindsey.

Now I want to touch on an evolution we've seen based on the bolded text above. So now the major issue is delaying emergency vehicles?

We've gone from OU football traffic on July 27th...

"The home OU football games are absolutely vital for donations to OU academics and athletics and because of this Football traffic on Lindsey absolutely out weighs whatever happens doing the rest of year, this is without doubt."

Now to emergency response, when the first time it has even been mentioned as an issue is after the recent article in the Transcript.

Why was this not a concern voiced before now? It almost seems like the argument was lost on the previous point(s) and a "sexier" one has arrived and it is time to latch on to that.

Perhaps we should evaluate watch the roundabout on East Main street...a QUARTER MILE from the a fire station has impacted them. Did they voice a ton of concern about it then? The nearest fire station to this area is Station #2 that is more than likely going to go down Boyd to avoid all traffic on Lindsey.

[ou48A]

Now to emergency response, when the first time it has even been mentioned as an issue is after the recent article in the Transcript.

That's just simply not true>

The issue of congestion causing safety concerns has been brought up before in city council meetings several times going back several years... OU football traffic congestion and it's problems has also been discussed several times in city council meetings going back several years that I know of.
I have also had personal conversations with City of Norman officials who were very much in agreement with me about these same safety and congestion issues and OU football traffic.

[ou48A]

There is an ethical question of doing something that represents very much of a change from what the voters voted for.
Its an issue sure to cause consternation among those who really do care about keeping the trust of the public, and there are a few.

[Just the facts]

Just curious, before the vote did the City of Norman specifically say how they were going to redo Lindsey St or was there anything in the ballot language addressing the design?

[Just the facts]

There is an ethical question of doing something that represents very much of a change from what the voters voted for.
Its an issue sure to cause consternation among those who really do care about keeping the trust of the public, and there are a few.

If they announced before the vote that Lindsey would include roundabouts would you have voted No?

[ou48A]

Just curious, before the vote did the City of Norman specifically say how they were going to redo Lindsey St or was there anything in the ballot language addressing the design?

Without any question Norman voters thought they were voting for a 4 lane street and probably very similar to what has been built in Norman in other locations in recent years....such as NW 36th.... That's what was sold to the public.

There was no mentioning of roundabouts that I recall and had there been the issue would have been soundly defeated and the people who now so loudly support roundabouts know it. That's why this looks like the old bate and switch which anyone with an ounce of ethical standards should take great issue with.

[ou48A]

If they announced before the vote that Lindsey would include roundabouts would you have voted No?

At the time, I'm not sure... but I do know that in this specific instance and based on the opinions of professional's, hell no I wouldn’t vote for roundabouts on Lindsey Street now!

But there are other streets in Norman where they do make far more sense.

[Just the facts]

Just for fun... Gotta love the internet.

http://www.okctalk.com/norman/31544-...age-today.html

http://www.okctalk.com/norman/27534-...forward-9.html

[venture]

That's just simply not true>

The issue of congestion causing safety concerns has been brought up before in city council meetings several times going back several years... OU football traffic congestion and it's problems has also been discussed several times in city council meetings going back several years that I know of.
I have also had personal conversations with City of Norman officials who were very much in agreement with me about these same safety and congestion issues and OU football traffic.

You miss what I'm saying. Why haven't YOU brought it up as your main point of opposition until it started to appear in the transcript? I know it has been discussed at length within the city. That is why Lindsey is currently avoided.

[venture]

Another story from the Transcript a couple days ago that I don't think got linked: Roundabouts could delay fire response times, report says » Previously reported » The Norman Transcript

So Chief Fullingim has two main issues - clearance room for the ladder trucks and navigating traffic. He is also against the median because it means they can't swerve around traffic in opposing lanes if needed. Then you go to model city Carmel, IN...

So how does a city with 78 roundabouts navigate them? Mayor James Brainard said roundabouts have not been an issue for Carmel, Ind.

“Our firefighters have been huge proponents for the roundabouts because they are not pulling people out of injury accidents,” Brainard said.

When the idea for roundabouts in Carmel first came up, firefighters voiced strong concerns, Brainard said. They built a makeshift roundabout out of orange cones and drove the apparatus around it.

Brainard said roundabouts have never been an issue, and the city’s ISO has improved since roundabouts were installed. The inside curb of the roundabout must be a rolled curb, and there must be six feet of concrete or bricks for the trucks to roll over. The roundabout on Main Street in Norman was constructed to this specification and local firefighters have experience navigating it. That experience has not deterred the city’s concerns.

So they had similar resistance at the beginning but then later found it was better overall for them.

The next part, which I think is the more concerning one instead of the roundabouts is the yielding traffic crossing the bike lanes. From the sounds of this it'll be median > car lane > bike lane > auxiliary lane > parking > grass > sidewalk > grass. That definitely raises issues then as some cars won't pay attention and just swerve over.

“The two-lane divided roadway concept will likely produce a situation that increases response times to this section of Lindsey Street as well any other location that requires utilizing this roadway,” Fullingim reported. “From an emergency responder standpoint, the four-lane concept will provide an opportunity to improve response times and open a reliable emergency response route through the corridor.”

So if we want to compromise what we are looking at then is acquiring more right-of-way and 4-lane all of this segment with the features of roundabouts, bike lanes, and sidewalks. However, the end goal really needs to be to shift traffic to Highway 9 or perhaps Main Street that already has the excess capacity and build in a new gateway from the north into Campus.

[Just the facts]

The book Suburban Nation does a good job of documenting local 'fire chief' opposition to any attempt to make streets more walkable. Very little has to do with actual safety but more to do with union rules.

I wonder how fire trucks get to places in the rest of the world.

[ou48A]

“Roundabouts could lead to delayed fire response times, according to a report issued this week by Norman city staff.”

“Lindsey Street between I-35 and Berry Road is currently unreliable as an emergency response route at most times due to congestion,” Fullingim said in the report. “I believe we have an opportunity to change this, and it would be in the best interest of public safety for this section of Lindsey Street to be a principal arterial road that would function as an effective emergency response route.”


This ^ totally ends the debate in a firm no to roundabouts on Lindsey street in Norman.
Only the crazzys would want a street that creates more problems than it sovles and roundabouts on Lindsey Street do that.

[Geographer]

“Roundabouts could lead to delayed fire response times, according to a report issued this week by Norman city staff.”

“Lindsey Street between I-35 and Berry Road is currently unreliable as an emergency response route at most times due to congestion,” Fullingim said in the report. “I believe we have an opportunity to change this, and it would be in the best interest of public safety for this section of Lindsey Street to be a principal arterial road that would function as an effective emergency response route.”


This ^ totally ends the debate in a firm no to roundabouts on Lindsey street in Norman.
Only the crazzys would want a street that creates more problems than it sovles and roundabouts on Lindsey Street do that.

People are trying to connect apples and oranges here.

Facts:
-Roundabouts decrease injury crashes.
-Roundabouts and medians don't necessarily cause "slower" response times. (See Carmel, IN)...I suspect they're just saying this because they aren't familiar with it. It happens
-Yes, Lindsey is currently unreliable BUT ITS BECAUSE THERE ARE TOO MANY TRAFFIC LIGHTS AND THIS CAUSES BACK UPS.
-The newly proposed design solves all of those problems.
-If we go with the original design, the street will still not be as safe as it could be with roundabouts. That's just the facts. Like you have said, it's a public safety issue. If you want to decrease overall crashes (and especially injury crashes) then put in roundabouts. Simple.

Also, you will NOT convince me that the current fire response time on Lindsey is better than what the roundabout time would be. I don't see why they're arguing that a roundabout would cause slower response times when, I am sure, it's already RIDICULOUSLY slow on Lindsey.