Lindsey Street

[Just the facts]

City staff reported a concern about delayed emergency response times if roundabouts are used, and the city council is taking that concern and others under advisement.

People have to stop making stuff up in their opposition because it is soooo easy to disprove. How fast does a fire truck go through a red light? Answer, slower than through a roundabout.

In the San Marco roundabout I posted earlier there is a fire station just down the street. Fire trucks go through it every day. On the north side is one of our major hospitals and ambulances also go through it everyday. Finally, the improved safety of the street created by the roundabout reduces the number of times an emergency vehicle has to respond in the first place.

[BoulderSooner]

People have to stop making stuff up in their opposition because it is soooo easy to disprove. How fast does a fire truck go through a red light? Answer, slower than through a roundabout.

In the San Marco roundabout I posted earlier there is a fire station just down the street. Fire trucks go through it every day. On the north side is one of our major hospitals and ambulances also go through it everyday. Finally, the improved safety of the street created by the roundabout reduces the number of times an emergency vehicle has to respond in the first place.

empty red light intersection on a 4 lane road .. pretty easy for traffic to pull out of the way ... full round about on a 2 lane road .. not much room to pull out of the way

[Just the facts]

Well, I don't know how we manage here in Jax then. I guess our firefighters and drivers are just better or maybe we have magic roundabouts or something.

[venture]

empty red light intersection on a 4 lane road .. pretty easy for traffic to pull out of the way ... full round about on a 2 lane road .. not much room to pull out of the way

So an auxiliary lane, that traffic can move over into without worrying about running into any traffic, would hamper emergency response times and is worse than 4 lanes of bumper to bumper traffic?

If you see an emergency vehicle coming up to A) don't enter the round about and B) if you are in the roundabout pull forward so the vehicle can get through. If that means going around one more time than so be it.

I'm not really sure how this concept is so hard to understand. Unless people have other motivations for their comments.

[ou48A]

LOL at the slower response times...that's totally not accurate at all. It's just a bunch of baloney because it's something different than people are used it...that's all it is.

I also laughed at the part where it said roundabouts would cause MORE delays during rush hour. TOTALLY FALSE.

There are many hours of a 24 hour day when Lindsey would not have very much traffic. During these periods of times emergency response times would be delayed by being forced to slow down for roundabouts. So yes, it is accurate to say resopons times would be delayed... This small amount of time can make a very huge difference in an emergency.

There have been studies that have show that traffic calming devices slow response times.
We need to be careful that we don't out smart our self's, stop using even basic common sense and create something that is actually worse for our residents.
We need 4 lanes on Lindsey for safety reasons.


SIX MINUTES TO LIVE OR DIE

USA TODAY

[Geographer]

There are many hours of a 24 hour day when Lindsey would not have very much traffic. During these periods of times emergency response times would be delayed by being forced to slow down for roundabouts. So yes, it is accurate to say resopons times would be delayed... This small amount of time can make a very huge difference in an emergency.

There have been studies that have show that traffic calming devices slow response times.
We need to be careful that we don't out smart our self's, stop using even basic common sense and create something that is actually worse for our residents.
We need 4 lanes on Lindsey for safety reasons.


SIX MINUTES TO LIVE OR DIE

USA TODAY

lolz

[ou48A]

empty red light intersection on a 4 lane road .. pretty easy for traffic to pull out of the way ... full round about on a 2 lane road .. not much room to pull out of the way

In addition to it being “pretty easy for traffic to pull out of the way” traffic lights can be equipped with safety deceives that know when emergency vehicles are approaching. This helps clear traffic for emergency vehicles...
An emergency lane creates a huge blind spot for many drivers wanting to make a right turn. It’s a recipe for accidents.
We need 4 lanes on Lindsey for safety.

[ou48A]

lolz

How many lives are lost across USA because emergency services fail...
some of this is due to delays caused by bad roads or do you not care about these people?

[Just the facts]

How many people are killed by accidents at right-angle intersection vs. how many die from emergency vehicles that pass through a roundabout where the roundabout is the difference between life or death?

Why can't some of you just accept that the world found a better way to do things and go with it?

[venture]

How many lives are lost across USA because emergency services fail...
some of this is due to delays caused by bad roads or do you not care about these people?

So is Carmel, IN just having people drop over left and right?

Again like JTF pointed out...people just making crap up to justify their position because they have nothing else to fall back on. The desperation is really pathetic.

[venture]

In addition to it being “pretty easy for traffic to pull out of the way” traffic lights can be equipped with safety deceives that know when emergency vehicles are approaching. This helps clear traffic for emergency vehicles...
An emergency lane creates a huge blind spot for many drivers wanting to make a right turn. It’s a recipe for accidents.
We need 4 lanes on Lindsey for safety.

Emergency lane? What?

[ou48A]

How many people are killed by accidents at right-angle intersection vs. how many die from emergency vehicles that pass through a roundabout where the roundabout is the difference between life or death?

Why can't some of you just accept that the world found a better way to do things and go with it?

2005 study conducted at the University of Texas concluded for every pedestrian killed by a speeding motorist, 37 people "may die as a result of delayed response times caused to police, fire and ambulance services" caused by speed humps.)
City fails to understand tenets of 'sustainabil... | The Kingston Whig-Standard

Some people are so dead set on what they think should be that they would never even consider something that is only basic common sense to most. But in this case the common sense is confirmed by a very respected major university study..
Roundabout are going slow emergency response times in much the same way and could cost lives.
We need 4 lanes on Lindsey with out roundabouts for community safety

[ou48A]

True environmentalist can't like traffic calming

Master's Professional Reports Abstract

Traffic Calming Programs & Emergency Response: A Competition of Two Public Goods
Leslie W. Bunte, Jr.
REPORT 2000 B8858 Public Affairs Library

A natural dilemma for public policy makers occurred when two public policies conflicted with each other causing immense political and emotional stress upon both the policy maker and the public.

This research paper examined the disagreement that had occurred in communities throughout the United States where traffic-calming programs were found to be in direct conflict with providing prompt emergency services.

Thus, a conflict of two public goods was created. This professional report examined the history and the positive and negative aspects of traffic calming programs. Negative impacts upon emergency services were substantiated by various emergency response time tests conducted by leading U.S. Fire Departments. Information was also obtained on injuries that have occurred to firefighters from traffic calming devices as well as documented mechanical damages to emergency vehicles. Traffic calming programs were found to contribute to air pollution as verified by several previous environmental studies conducted specifically for traffic calming devices. This report also revealed the enormous potential for civil liabilities for local governments, particularly with the violation of the American with Disabilities Act. In general, most U.S. local governments placed their traffic calming programs in moratorium due to all of the conflicts that were generated.

A policy analysis was conducted specifically for the conflict that had arisen in Austin, Texas. Based on quantitative processes, this analysis showed that Austin would lose an additional 37 lives per year with patients of sudden cardiac arrest if the Fire and EMS Departments experienced a 30 second delay in response times due to traffic calming. The analyses also concluded that at best, only one pedestrian life could be saved each year from traffic calming as pedestrian fatalities rarely occurred within residential neighborhoods. A risk/benefit analyses also demonstrated that traffic-calming devices have more of a negative impact than a positive impact to the community. To reduce the conflict, and ensure at least a balance of these two public goods, a set of recommendations was formulated for the City of Austin policy makers and for those of other communities who had similar circumstances.

[venture]

2005 study conducted at the University of Texas concluded for every pedestrian killed by a speeding motorist, 37 people "may die as a result of delayed response times caused to police, fire and ambulance services" caused by speed humps.)
City fails to understand tenets of 'sustainabil... | The Kingston Whig-Standard

Some people are so dead set on what they think should be that they would never even consider something that is only basic common sense to most. But in this case the common sense is confirmed by a very respected major university study..
Roundabout are going slow emergency response times in much the same way and could cost lives.
We need 4 lanes on Lindsey with out roundabouts for community safety

Speed over speed humps is going to be well under the 20 mph average speed through roundabouts, so why are you even trying to connect to two?

This is getting pretty comical. Nothing for months and now all of a sudden we are hearing "4 lanes on Lindsey without roundabouts for safety" when the concern hasn't been raised before. This children is what you call grasping at straws when you are running out of objections. Next we'll hear about how the Summer solstice and solar flares make them horrible.

[Buffalo Bill]

Nice, OU48A in all his burnt orange glory.

[ou48A]

Speed over speed humps is going to be well under the 20 mph average speed through roundabouts, so why are you even trying to connect to two?

This is getting pretty comical. Nothing for months and now all of a sudden we are hearing "4 lanes on Lindsey without roundabouts for safety" when the concern hasn't been raised before. This children is what you call grasping at straws when you are running out of objections. Next we'll hear about how the Summer solstice and solar flares make them horrible.

Your argument, as so typical, lacks even basic common sense.
Roundabouts and one lane in each direction will slow emergency response times. This is particularly true during non peak hours.

Eddie Haas of Freese and Nichols “The roundabouts would result in much slower traffic and delays during peak-use hours.”
“City staff reported a concern about delayed emergency response times if roundabouts are used”

Norman Fire Chief James Fulfilling said “What works in Camel, Ind., may result in slower response times in Norman”
Then we have the university of Texas study.

Pardon me but before I believe anything that you say or post about traffic issues I am going to believe what these^ folks have to say along with my own common scene that tells me that smarter and more informed folks than you have studied and understand far better about what needs to be done with Lindsey street as far as it being 4 lanes and no roundabouts.

I do believe we can have a medium with trees and vegetation and some other nice stuff along the way.

[ou48A]

Nice, OU48A in all his burnt orange glory.

As I have matured and learned more I actually have a great respect for the university of Texas and many of their older attending fans.
But that doesn’t mean that I like 100% of their fans or that ugly burnt orange.
I hope they keep Mack Brown around forever.

[Just the facts]

2005 study conducted at the University of Texas concluded for every pedestrian killed by a speeding motorist, 37 people "may die as a result of delayed response times caused to police, fire and ambulance services" caused by speed humps.)
City fails to understand tenets of 'sustainabil... | The Kingston Whig-Standard

Some people are so dead set on what they think should be that they would never even consider something that is only basic common sense to most. But in this case the common sense is confirmed by a very respected major university study..
Roundabout are going slow emergency response times in much the same way and could cost lives.
We need 4 lanes on Lindsey with out roundabouts for community safety

You fell for one the classic misdirection's in all of the 'study' industry - saying one thing but providing data for something else. These two bolded words are key to the understanding that whole study.

2005 study conducted at the University of Texas concluded for every pedestrian killed by a speeding motorist, 37 people "may die as a result of delayed response times caused to police, fire and ambulance services" caused by speed humps.)

The vast majority of people killed at intersections are NOT pedestrians - they are people in cars. And don't get me started on "may".

The second part is the total abandonment of "does this even pass the smell test".

(Suffice to say, however, that studies have shown ambulances face delays of 2.3 to 9.7 seconds, and fire trucks delays of up to 15 seconds, depending on how many speed humps they need to cross over; and a 2005 study conducted at the University of Texas concluded for every pedestrian killed by a speeding motorist, 37 people "may die as a result of delayed response times caused to police, fire and ambulance services" caused by speed humps.)

Really? 37 more people are going to dies because of a 2.3 second to 9.7 second delay. Here is the deal, if you are within 2.3 seconds of death before the ambulance arrives, you probably aren't going to make it anyhow.

[ou48A]

You fell for one the classic misdirection's in all of the 'study' industry - saying one thing but providing data for something else. These two bolded words are key to the understanding that whole study.



The vast majority of people killed at intersections are NOT pedestrians - they are people in cars. And don't get me started on "may".

Master's Professional Reports Abstract

[Just the facts]

Master's Professional Reports Abstract

I'll tell you what. Show me in the Lindsey Street plan where speed bumps are included and I'll read every word of your speed bump study. And once again, your study is only talking about saving the lives of pedestrians, we are talking about saving the lives (and injuries) of drivers and bicyclist as well.

This whole discussion has become a cartoon.

[venture]

Your argument, as so typical, lacks even basic common sense.
Roundabouts and one lane in each direction will slow emergency response times. This is particularly true during non peak hours.

Eddie Haas of Freese and Nichols “The roundabouts would result in much slower traffic and delays during peak-use hours.”
“City staff reported a concern about delayed emergency response times if roundabouts are used”

Norman Fire Chief James Fulfilling said “What works in Camel, Ind., may result in slower response times in Norman”
Then we have the university of Texas study.

Pardon me but before I believe anything that you say or post about traffic issues I am going to believe what these^ folks have to say along with my own common scene that tells me that smarter and more informed folks than you have studied and understand far better about what needs to be done with Lindsey street as far as it being 4 lanes and no roundabouts.

I do believe we can have a medium with trees and vegetation and some other nice stuff along the way.

LOL. You seem to be CONVENIENTLY ignoring the fact that there will be an auxiliary lane on both sides of the road, where it is down to 1 lane each way of traffic, that traffic can easily move over out of the way into. To me, that comes across as a better solution than trying to shove 2 busy lanes (each way) to the right and try to navigate through.

Of course roundabouts would result in slower traffic. That's the point. What are you expecting Lindsey to go to 40 mph all the way down? LOL

No...you would see a 2-lane Lindsey to McGree probably at the 30-35 mph that it is now and then a 25 mph Lindsey (down from 30) through campus. Roundabouts will maintain speeds around 20 mph on average and you remove any delays that traffic lights will cause so traffic essentially will never stop except during peak conditions.

Let's not forget that Eddie Haas is also saying that a roundabout at Berry would work, you seemed to leave that off.

The median with landscaping is pretty much a done deal at this point. Now it just comes down to deciding which intersections will be with lights and which will be with roundabouts. I'm sure those folks are more studied up than I on this issue. For Haas it is his job as contractor...which is why he IS NOT against roundabouts in the solution. Fulfilling is always going to have a concern if there are going to be traffic issues when it comes to response time. I wouldn't go out of my way to call him an expert though on traffic patterns and the ability to manage them.

[venture]

I'll tell you what. Show me in the Lindsey Street plan where speed bumps are included and I'll read every word of your speed bump study. And once again, your study is only talking about saving the lives of pedestrians, we are talking about saving the lives (and injuries) of drivers and bicyclist as well.

This whole discussion has become a cartoon.

I agree Kerry. Classic misdirection from people that don't have a leg to stand on in the opposition anymore. They are at the point where they are opposing the project just to oppose it.

[ou48A]

I'll tell you what. Show me in the Lindsey Street plan where speed bumps are included and I'll read every word of your speed bump study. And once again, your study is only talking about saving the lives of pedestrians, we are talking about saving the lives (and injuries) of drivers and bicyclist as well.

This whole discussion has become a cartoon.

It's a cartoon because there is to little commonsense or listing to contrary opinions on your side.
It's been pretty much its my way or the highway with your side

People with far more expertise than you or others here along with a major university study understand the impact of what slowing traffic does to slow emergency response times and also how it can cost life.
Those opinions have far more credibility than yours or others posting here!

[Just the facts]

It's been pretty much its my way or the highway with your side

That should be "It's been pretty much its my way or the sidewalk/bike lane/muse/passage way/rail/bus/rickshaw/skinny street/avenue/boulevard/parkway/highway with your side. You see, this is the primary difference - my side wants equal consideration for all modes of transportation so that people can be free to choose how they want to live. Your side wants the automobile to be the only viable mode of transportation which forces everyone over the age 18 to own a car if they want to participate fully in society. We tried your way for 60 years - it isn't working.

[CaptDave]

That should be "It's been pretty much its my way or the sidewalk/bike lane/muse/passage way/rail/bus/rickshaw/skinny street/avenue/boulevard/parkway/highway with your side. You see, this is the primary difference - my side wants equal consideration for all modes of transportation so that people can be free to choose how they want to live. Your side wants the automobile to be the only viable mode of transportation which forces everyone over the age 18 to own a car if they want to participate fully in society. We tried your way for 60 years - it isn't working.

You forgot the part about basing it on the traffic on 6 days a year too.... there is a definite generational divide in transportation and development policy. Some people really equate a car with freedom even though they are forced to sit in a metal box for a fairly large percentage of their waking hours. That is the old paradigm and the number of people that accept it as absolute are decreasing. Freedom is choice - doesn't sound like freedom if there is no viable alternative. Hopefully the lunacy of basing nearly every aspect of our society on a machine is over and we will be more thoughtful in the future.