Lindsey Street

[venture]

I still submit that bicycle infrastructure should really dominate Lindsey street. Just looking at traffic counts, there is a ton of traffic coming to and from the university. The kind of traffic that can be easily converted to bycicle trips if the right infrastructure is built.

Where the pedestrian/cycle crossings are on Lindsey, I suggest a cycle roundabout be considered to help keep traffic moving but enhance N/S cycle flow as well.

That is pretty interesting. I think the level you are thinking, as well as some of us also posting here, is a long term vision of what Lindsey should be. We are paying millions right now to get this done, but what point is there to tear it all up now just to do it over again in 5-10 years when those against a more multimodal solution are completely out of power. We have the chance to do it right and create a corridor to where we could see a lot of high density and high value development take place. Making it pedestrian and bicycle friendly is only going to make things better when it comes to tapping into the campus population.

[Just the facts]

Can buses fit in that? I didn't watch the entire video. . . just the first 2 minutes. Now, I can see that working daily, but please explain to me who has the right of way and how on earth would that move heavy traffic that comes during rush hour and game nights???? It seems that would be nightmare and even worse if it was narrowed to one lane each way.

BTW, thats your account, I subscribed to ya, just so you know. Liked your videos on the Black and Red lines for OKC rail. That would be awesome to see that.

At the 1:00 mark a pretty good sized truck goes through the roundabout, but to answer your question directly, this is a primary bus route from downtown Jax to the southern suburbs and dozens of buses go through that roundabout (and the other one down the street) many times per day. I am in this area a lot (my dog's favorite place to go for a walk) so I can get a video of a bus going through it.

Traffic in the roundabout has the right of way. As you approach the roundabout you look to your left. If there is a car in the roundabout they have the right-of-way. If no car is there you just keep going (slowing down to make the curve). You can see in the video that this is a challenge for some drivers (who stop in the roundabout or come to complete stop approaching the roundabout when no car is in it) - but they will learn (and besides - it is usually old people and they won't be driving much longer anyhow).

[catch22]

Was in Norman yesterday. I think Lindsey will be a great corridor with the roundabouts.

Also drove Main Street. Main Street is just asking to be a streetcar corridor double tracked flank on the west, with a couplet downtown.

[Just the facts]

Was in Norman yesterday. I think Lindsey will be a great corridor with the roundabouts.

Also drove Main Street. Main Street is just asking to be a streetcar corridor double tracked flank on the west, with a couplet downtown.

Main and Gray should be returned to two-way streets.

[kevinpate]

I disagree JTF. The one way sections of Main and Gray are fine just like they are.

[catch22]

I disagree JTF. The one way sections of Main and Gray are fine just like they are.

Yes they are fine how they are.

[Just the facts]

It's your town so you guys can decide. Just Google 'two way streets vs. one way streets' before you write off the idea.

[Geographer]

I agree with JTF. I HATE that main street is one way. It should be two way...I loathe one way streets. Why do you think most major city downtowns have returned to two way streets?

[venture]

Story today in the Transcript on the safety impact that roundabouts have: Roundabout revolution could be safer for bikes » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

It takes readers to a familiar city for those of us on this thread - Carmel, IN. Similar in population to Norman, they have the most roundabouts compared to any city in the country.

Main points:

• Injury accident rate down 80%
• Overall accident rate down 40%
• Difference in cost to build roundabouts recouped in savings of not needing traffic lights with related electricity and maintenance costs.
• Much safer for cyclists.

[venture]

I agree with JTF. I HATE that main street is one way. It should be two way...I loathe one way streets. Why do you think most major city downtowns have returned to two way streets?

Yeah many are dumping one ways, but for Main/Gray I don't know if we reached the point yet to have to revert to 2-way. After we get done with Lindsey, and people are more familiar with the roundabout solution, I think we could see how to implement it for the Main/Gray loop - and actually create a flowing loop.

Main/Porter would be the first intersection to get a roundabout. There the city would be looking at right of way acquisition requirements, which would be a good thing. That area needs some revitalization and clearing out of the older structures. The food mart/gas station next to the fire station would go and perhaps the gyros and window tinting businesses on the SE corner. You could then take Main Street down to 2 lanes after Crawford and introduce the buffer areas for people backing out of the parking spaces.

Then on Gray and Porter another roundabout which would require the relocation of the muffler shop at least. Now with Gray I've never seen traffic get extremely bad. So there we could go down to 2 lanes with buffer zones or bike lanes for the whole stretch.

Gray and University has much more room to play with thanks to parking lots making up most of that corner. So another roundabout there would be the next major piece to complete the continuous flowing loop for downtown.

Main and University...the most difficult one. The north side of main isn't going to be touchable by this solution. No one is going to allow tearing down some of the larger structures that make up downtown. So we have to look south again. The building with the bookstore, stamp shop, and cake store and then the Metro Glass location across the street would be targets. Clearing these out and finishing off with a roundabout would complete the circle.

Now of course there would be individual traffic lights are other intersections in the loop, but we just simply run out of room to remove them. Removing the big choke points along Porter though should be the target and would really help with traffic flow.

[Just the facts]

Think about this: Downtown Norman went from prairie to center of commerce with two way streets, then they were converted to one way and zero growth for 2 generations while the rest of Norman grew like a weed. Maybe Norman got it right the first time. "Urban sprawl" doesn't get much right from a mobility standpoint but I'll give it this, they don't build any one-way streets.

[kevinpate]

venture79, wouldn't a roundabout at both Main/Porter and Gray/Porter be a really tight fit?

[venture]

venture79, wouldn't a roundabout at both Main/Porter and Gray/Porter be a really tight fit?

Indeed, which is why I said right-of-way purchasing would definitely complicate things. I was more or less just throwing out an idea to find a way to make that area move a bit better. Single-lane roundabouts you normally need like 120-150' of clearance...2 lane roundabouts you need 180-200' depending on how to set it up.

[BG918]

I'd be happy with just a 2-way (one lane each direction) Main and Gray with a landscaped center median down Main from Flood to Porter. Eufaula would make the most sense for dual bike lanes since Main/Gray would be hostile to bikes due to the angled parking. The Eufaula bike lanes would connect to potentual future bike lanes on James Garner/Jenkins (extending south to connect to bike lanes on Lindsey and eventually down to the south research campus) and also on University tying into OU's bike paths on campus.

[catch22]

Think about this: Downtown Norman went from prairie to center of commerce with two way streets, then they were converted to one way and zero growth for 2 generations while the rest of Norman grew like a weed. Maybe Norman got it right the first time. "Urban sprawl" doesn't get much right from a mobility standpoint but I'll give it this, they don't build any one-way streets.

How is downtown Denver growing at such a phenomenal pace? It is pretty much all one way streets.

They aren't the destroyer of downtowns. For OKC they sucked because of all of our deadend streets and super blocks. But small blocks and an effective grid they are hardly an evil thing.

[Just the facts]

How is downtown Denver growing at such a phenomenal pace? It is pretty much all one way streets.

They aren't the destroyer of downtowns. For OKC they sucked because of all of our deadend streets and super blocks. But small blocks and an effective grid they are hardly an evil thing.

Actually, Denver is in the process of converting their one way streets to two way streets.

Several are already done...

http://yourhub.denverpost.com/denver...fziVjUSN-story

Public Works officials planned to convert sections of Cherokee and Delaware streets as soon as this week. The sections are on Cherokee between 13th Avenue and Speer Boulevard and on Delaware between 13th and 11th avenues.

In October, crews turned Larimer Street into a two-lane road between Broadway and Downing Street. Crews also have converted sections of California and Lawrence streets northeast of Broadway into two-lane roadways in the Curtis Park/Five Points area.

“In a sense, it was a trend to make these neighborhoods more liveable,” Robb said.

and more are planned...

Denver looks into converting 1-way streets to 2-way - Denver Business Journal

Denver Public Works is studying the possibility of converting one-way streets into two-way streets in three areas in and around downtown.

The studies were launched in response to development at Denver Union Station, in the Uptown neighborhood and anticipated development along Welton Street in the central business district, said Crissy Fanganello, public works director of planning and sustainability.

...

The three areas under discussion for converting to two-way traffic are:

• Welton Street between 15th and 17th streets, or one block on either side of the 16th Street Mall in the central business district.

• 19th Avenue, between Broadway and Park Avenue, and 20th Avenue between Lincoln Street to Park Avenue in Uptown, northeast of downtown.

• 18th Street between Wynkoop and Blake streets by Denver Union Station in LoDo.

Community interest is driving the consideration of converting traffic on the streets in Uptown and LoDo, Fanganello said.

[Geographer]

"Two-way streets appeal to businesses because traffic moves slower on two-way streets compared to one-way streets, making it easier for motorists to stop and patronize a business, Fanganello said."

"One-way streets help people funnel in and out of downtown during commuter rush hours. Two-way streets are more pedestrian friendly because traffic is moving more slowly, she said."

[catch22]

While I agree, my point was they do not destroy downtowns like Jtf was saying.

[Just the facts]

While I agree, my point was they do not destroy downtowns like Jtf was saying.

There is plenty of documentation to support that they did harm cities. I can dig it up if you want me to. In fact, one of the stated goals of converting OKC streets to one way back in the day was to get cars (and the people in them) out of downtown as fast as possible. It worked like a charm. So much so that people no longer needed to walk on the sidewalk and they raced by retail stores at 45 mph. ODOT still believes in this philosophy today.

[catch22]

There is plenty of documentation to support that they did harm cities. I can dig it up if you want me to. In fact, one of the stated goals of converting OKC streets to one way back in the day was to get cars (and the people in them) out of downtown as fast as possible. It worked like a charm. So much so that people no longer needed to walk on the sidewalk and they raced by retail stores at 45 mph. ODOT still believes in this philosophy today.

Downtown Denver, Downtown Chicago have been doing okay with their one way streets. I believe San Francisco has a lot of one way streets also.

They might be a contributing factor in certain cities but they are not the sole reason. In some cities they don't even do much harm.

[Just the facts]

Throw 25,000 residents in downtown Norman and you're right - one way streets might not make a difference.

Ironically enough - San Francisco is also in the process of converting some one way streets to two way.

http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/06/20...hermans-wharf/

On edit - it seems we have detoured from Lindsey St quite a bit so maybe we should have a new thread.

http://www.okctalk.com/norman/34867-...tml#post681630

[venture]

Another article today...

Norman residents invited to provide their opinions about West Lindsey Street project » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

The university has proposed that Lindsey be widened to four lanes west of McGee Drive but use two lanes east of McGee Drive. The road would maintain the same width as the four-lane footprint, but with buffered bike lanes and an auxiliary lane replacing one lane of traffic. The auxiliary lane would allow CART bus stops and for vehicles to transition out of the flow of traffic as they turn into business driveways.

Peters said the focus for roundabouts is on the eastern leg of the Lindsey project. He said a single-lane roundabout would not be as functional at McGee Drive as at other locations. In particular, a single-lane roundabout is recommended for the Berry Road intersection.

Then we also heard from the city contractor finally...

Eddie Haas of Freese and Nichols, reporting for the city, showed that roundabouts could work at Berry Road and east of Berry along Lindsey.

Haas showed that both plans — the city’s proposal for four lanes and the IQC proposal for roundabouts and two lanes east of McGee — could work and should increase safety. The roundabouts would result in much slower traffic and delays during peak-use hours.

Of course the choke point for the delays in the roundabout solution will be the traffic lights at McGee and 24th SW. Slower traffic is a given since roundabouts command about 15-20 mph to go through them so the overall speed limit on Lindsey, east of McGree, would drop from the current 30 mph to 25 mph.

City staff reported a concern about delayed emergency response times if roundabouts are used, and the city council is taking that concern and others under advisement.

I'm not really sure how this is even accurate. Traffic will keep moving. There will be auxiliary lanes on the side of the road so traffic will be able to easily get out of the way - more so than it does now.

[BoulderSooner]

roundabouts on 2 lane roads have a max traffic threshold ... after which they become clogged

[Geographer]

LOL at the slower response times...that's totally not accurate at all. It's just a bunch of baloney because it's something different than people are used it...that's all it is.

I also laughed at the part where it said roundabouts would cause MORE delays during rush hour. TOTALLY FALSE.

[Just the facts]

roundabouts on 2 lane roads have a max traffic threshold ... after which they become clogged

Yes - but it is a higher threshold than a 4 lane road with traffic lights. Said another way - a 2 lane road with roundabouts can handle more traffic than a 4 lane road with stop lights.