Lifestyle center and major economic development in Westlake, OH

[Spartan]

Given that there seems to be a LOT of confusion in some threads on here regarding what denotes a lifestyle center, I thought I'd post some pics that I took back when it got real cold before Halloween. This is Crocker Park, widely regarded as the best lifestyle center in the Cleveland area, which actually has a lot to chose from.

Building Crocker Park has cemented Westlake's role, despite its small population of only 33,000, as one of NE Ohio's premier suburbs. There are thousands of condo and apartment units on the floors above all of these shops, every day thousands of Ohioans flock to hang out and enjoy a day in a beautiful setting, and now American Greetings is breaking ground on a new headquarters that will almost finish out the development.

THIS is how a retail development can result in economic development:



































And what once was, and still is...behind the parking lot:

[catch22]

Wow. Thanks for posting this Spartan.

If only a developer in Oklahoma had the vision and push to do that...

[CaptDave]

But that would never work in Oklahoma Spartan! Where would people park? We certainly can't expect anyone to.....walk!

It would be nice if that type of development would take root in Core to Shore or along the Boulev...oh never mind - the escape route from downtown.

Nice area of the type that can be found in many places.

[Just the facts]

Behold, what Bricktown could have looked like.

... or Classen Curve... or UNP ... or C2S ... or Midwest City Town Center ... or Choctaw Town Center ... or Shoppes at Del City ......or........

[Just the facts]

This place is missing one obvious thing. Blocks of structured parking. Obviously, these buildings are failing.

They have actually have quit a bit of structured parking.

Spartan - Is the shopping center and acres of surface parking north of this part of the same development?

[Bunty]

They have actually have quit a bit of structured parking.

YUCK. Parallel parking is not a fun style to park. Why do you love it so much?

[Spartan]

They have actually have quit a bit of structured parking.

Spartan - Is the shopping center and acres of surface parking north of this part of the same development?

Yes, it is. That's what this development originally was, then they tore down a chunk of it for the overpriced movie theater. Perhaps it is even more crazier when you consider that this massive lifestyle center, one of the largest in the country, basically began as a strip mall redevelopment.

The strip mall fronts the important intersection of Crocker Rd and Detroit Rd (which is the backbone of Cleveland's west side) and it will probably be redeveloped as well once American Greetings finishes out the last open site.


American Greetings HQ is going in behind Trader Joe's where Market Street ends. The strip mall portion is the Giant Eagle, which is a massive grocery store. This map also doesn't show a lot of condo subdivisions behind Dick's.

[zookeeper]

Even this, a little closer to home in Allen and Fairview Texas, the whole thing straddles the boundries of both cities.
The Village Shopping - Home
It has exploded. Sorry, I don't have pictures.

[Just the facts]

They have actually have quit a bit of structured parking.

YUCK. Parallel parking is not a fun style to park. Why do you love it so much?

Structured parking means a parking garage. As for the type of on street parking there are 3 basic kinds along the sidewalk (angle parking, back-in angle parking, and parallel parking). All three help provide a barrier between moving traffic and pedestrians but an added component is the street geometry. There is a relationship between the width of the street and the height of the building. The people who study this stuff say that in T4/T5 zone a ratio between 1:1 and 2:1 works best. If the street is 30' wide the adjacent buildings should be between 15' and 30' high. Since angled parking takes about 7 more feet than parallel parking and you do this on each side of the street you end up with 14 additional feet which causes the building height to change. With the change in height comes different uses for the buildings. With parallel parking you get 2 story units but with angled parking you can switch to first floor retail and 2 to 3 stories of apartments above that. Of course, with the additional height comes more people so it works out that angled parking can support more cars.

As for preference, I don't mind parallel parking. It is very easy for me to do but you can go on Google and watch video after of video of people trying to do it - and usually causing property damage in the process. There are several car models now that do the parallel parking unassisted - just push a button and let the car do it. Where angled parking is supported by building height I prefer back-in angled parking.

[Spartan]

You would think that back-in parking would be simple to understand, but that I sit at my office all day watching people try and do it and it's hilarious.

[kevinpate]

I think it would likely be even funnier here. We seem to have many drivers who think it's only driving if their bumper is primed to mate with the rear bumper of the car ahead of them.

[Just the facts]

You would think that back-in parking would be simple to understand, but that I sit at my office all day watching people try and do it and it's hilarious.

One thing I have noticed is that a lot of people are ill-equipped to function on a daily basis - be it lawn care, maintaining the interior of a house, or driving. Given how crappy most people are at functioning in suburbia I have a hard time understanding how it exist at all. House Hunters International is a family favorite in our home and when I see places that don't need exterior weekly maintenance, have only 500 sq. feet of interior space to maintain and furnish, and no need to drive anywhere I ask myself why more people in America don't choose that housing option because it fits most people's capabilities perfectly. If we could combine Europe's public spaces, transit, and housing size with America's interior furnishing that would be as close to utopia as one can get on Earth. Nobody can create interior comforts like America - but we suck at everything else in the built environment.

[HangryHippo]

I really, really don't understand why OKC can't get a single developer to do something like this village... It would be a resounding success and no one even tries.

[Bunty]

You would think that back-in parking would be simple to understand, but that I sit at my office all day watching people try and do it and it's hilarious.

Actually, really very, very little wonder why. They can't see for sure where the back bumper is going.

Another reason why parallel parking so strongly sucks is you park that way where there are night clubs and you risk getting your side view mirror knocked off. And if you can easily parallel park with effortless expertise, is the next person parking by you going to be able to do it as well without swiping your car?

[Rover]

One thing I have noticed is that a lot of people are ill-equipped to function on a daily basis - be it lawn care, maintaining the interior of a house, or driving. Given how crappy most people are at functioning in suburbia I have a hard time understanding how it exist at all. House Hunters International is a family favorite in our home and when I see places that don't need exterior weekly maintenance, have only 500 sq. feet of interior space to maintain and furnish, and no need to drive anywhere I ask myself why more people in America don't choose that housing option because it fits most people's capabilities perfectly. If we could combine Europe's public spaces, transit, and housing size with America's interior furnishing that would be as close to utopia as one can get on Earth. Nobody can create interior comforts like America - but we suck at everything else in the built environment.

One thing I notices is how arrogant some people are towards others.

You must live in a crappy neighborhood with really stupid people who neither know how to nor are willing to take care of their property. Of course, putting all these people together in a cramped building is a great way to fix this problem.

There are people who are not motivated or cannot care for property in all areas. You live in a utopian or sheltered environment if you haven't been to or seen the results of this in urban environments also. Constant implication that all suburbanites are stupid or lazy is tiring and juvenile.

By the way, you need to spend some time in some of those great European environments you so covet...not in the tourist part, but in the REAL parts. Your would realize there is a lot more to community than buildings to the street and people living on top, between and underneath each other. All those gross descriptions would also fit many of the gawd awful cities in China, Thailand, Indonesia, etc. where I have spent time.

On the actual topic, there were two particular centers planned here...one just east of the ballpark. Funk was shot down. Had he been allowed to develop it, it would have progressed Btown immensely and rapidly. The other was north of QS Mall. It was the victim of the crash. Also, at that time, national retailers had mixed opinions as to the actual viability of the retail in those centers. Not all these types centers have been fabulously successful for the retailers.

Both would have been interesting. But credit Mayor Mick for stalling this concept out in OKC. Success downtown would have encouraged other such development.

[Rover]

With all the Edmond bashing, it probably has the most promise to do this in a more organic way. Downtown would be a good start. It is surrounded by lower priced homes which are not historically significant. If a developer could amass enough property adjacent to downtown they could really develop a great urban enclave with infill and some imagination. With its close proximity to UCO it could really develop nicely.

[CaptDave]

With all the Edmond bashing, it probably has the most promise to do this in a more organic way. Downtown would be a good start. It is surrounded by lower priced homes which are not historically significant. If a developer could amass enough property adjacent to downtown they could really develop a great urban enclave with infill and some imagination. With its close proximity to UCO it could really develop nicely.

Main Street between downtown and UCO would be perfect for this. The library could be incorporated into the development. Would love to see it.

[Spartan]

I really, really don't understand why OKC can't get a single developer to do something like this village... It would be a resounding success and no one even tries.

Because they can have just as much of a resounding success on the CHEAP and we let it happen. It's the free market.

[Spartan]

With all the Edmond bashing, it probably has the most promise to do this in a more organic way. Downtown would be a good start. It is surrounded by lower priced homes which are not historically significant. If a developer could amass enough property adjacent to downtown they could really develop a great urban enclave with infill and some imagination. With its close proximity to UCO it could really develop nicely.

I would check out "First and Main" in Hudson, Ohio for a good model on how a lifestyle center can be incorporated around a historic town square.










Here's an article on PlannersWeb about Hudson.
Hudson's Star Attraction - PlannersWeb

For some background, most Cleveland urbanists actually detest Crocker Park and Westlake (primarily because the core is hemorrhaging companies to mega burbs like Westlake, Independence, and Beachwood) but most of those same urbanists actually love First and Main and all of Hudson because it's just a bucolic, historic Western Reserve village town.

[Rover]

That's a great representation of what Edmond could be. We can hope.

[Rover]

Instead of constantly bickering about suburbs vs. downtown, if we could identify about 6-10 town centers to focus on and draw things close to them, then we could possibly stem the tide of things going further and further out. Downtown Edmond, Capital Hill, May and Grand/Wilshire, Britton, downtown Bethany, downtown Norman (or infill UNP), Across from Tinker, etc. We could have nice pockets of urbanism AND rebuild our burbs where people live and businesses are already established.

[CaptDave]

Instead of constantly bickering about suburbs vs. downtown, if we could identify about 6-10 town centers to focus on and draw things close to them, then we could possibly stem the tide of things going further and further out. Downtown Edmond, Capital Hill, May and Grand/Wilshire, Britton, downtown Bethany, downtown Norman (or infill UNP), Across from Tinker, etc. We could have nice pockets of urbanism AND rebuild our burbs where people live and businesses are already established.

Then connect all of them with a robust transit system.

[Rover]

Yes.

[HangryHippo]

Instead of constantly bickering about suburbs vs. downtown, if we could identify about 6-10 town centers to focus on and draw things close to them, then we could possibly stem the tide of things going further and further out. Downtown Edmond, Capital Hill, May and Grand/Wilshire, Britton, downtown Bethany, downtown Norman (or infill UNP), Across from Tinker, etc. We could have nice pockets of urbanism AND rebuild our burbs where people live and businesses are already established.

I love this idea.

[Plutonic Panda]

With all the Edmond bashing, it probably has the most promise to do this in a more organic way. Downtown would be a good start. It is surrounded by lower priced homes which are not historically significant. If a developer could amass enough property adjacent to downtown they could really develop a great urban enclave with infill and some imagination. With its close proximity to UCO it could really develop nicely.

Rover, I've dreamed of doing this for sometime now. I would love to become an entrepreneur as well as a quality developer. If I'm successful and able to attain enough money one day, I'd love to do this. (if someone doesn't beat me to it lol)