Future highway or interstate expansion?

[ou48A]

If the I35/I235 corridor were fully finished tomorrow (all the way to highway 9 west) with the 44/235 interchange finished and the 240/35 interchange fixed ... then yes traffic would be noticeably improved on the entire route

Yes you are correct.

Putting the increasing amounts of north /south traffic that passes though the OKC metro on a different highway and taking this traffic off of I-35 would reduce the congestion on I-35.
Since this traffic involves many heavy trucks removing them to a less crowed by-pass would make I-35 safer for commuters.

[Stew]

Yes you are correct.

Putting the increasing amounts of north /south traffic that passes though the OKC metro on a different highway and taking this traffic off of I-35 would reduce the congestion on I-35.
Since this traffic involves many heavy trucks removing them to a less crowed by-pass would make I-35 safer for commuters.

That makes sense.

[catch22]

i don't totally agree with this .....


so you are saying if we made I35 from OKC to highway 9 west .. 6 lanes each way with 2 toll lanes each way it would be full when it is done??

not a chance .. it would take decades for it to fill ..


the new cross town is never full until to get to the west end where is reduces because of the bridge over I44


now in huge cities with tons of traffic and population i agree with you adding a lane in houston or boston or NYC of course you just induce demand .. because in those cities demand far out does supply

Perhaps I was over exaggerating, but the point remains the same. Growth is inevitable, and adding additional capacity will, over time, be filled by increased demand. I think induced traffic is more a symptom of the interstate/highway system, than local streets. I can think of a ton of 4-lane streets in the metro that could easily support being a 2 lane road for the considerable future.

We do need to stop the ever-growing expansion at some point....we need to decide how much vehicle capacity is reasonable for the future....If we want 4 lanes, if we want 5 lanes. But we need to draw the line on how many lanes we want to add, because again, over time growth will fill those lanes. We need to set a schedule for getting commuter rail, express bus service, etc. to capture some of that growth and provide alternate transit solutions for an overall system.

[Rover]

Sure, in part. What will we subsidize tomorrow for more growth?

Give me a few trillion dollars and I'll inflate any nation's economy for a few generations.

But what do we have to show for it exactly? Catch my drift?

Point to point delivery has allowed distributed manufacturing and logistics on an unprecedented scale. I know it is fashionable to hate this kind of free enterprise here.

The trains are still free to compete and do. They carry more freight tons/mile than trucks. They carry a higher percentage than the European Union. Problem is, they don't connect well to airports, ports, or even to many manufacturing and distribution nodes. They do well in long haul with products that can be transshipped.

[LakeEffect]

Point to point delivery has allowed distributed manufacturing and logistics on an unprecedented scale. I know it is fashionable to hate this kind of free enterprise here.

The trains are still free to compete and do. They carry more freight tons/mile than trucks. They carry a higher percentage than the European Union. Problem is, they don't connect well to airports, ports, or even to many manufacturing and distribution nodes. They do well in long haul with products that can be transshipped.

You're not very up-to-date with rail now, are you? Intermodel blurs the line between rail and truck, and the railroads are greatly expanding their intermodel hubs to allow for easier transfer from rail to truck and truck to rail.

[RadicalModerate]

How many trucks is one winter and one summer equal to?

I think that for the answer to that question you might wish to contact a Highway Dept. in Minnesota or North Dakota.
Why? Whatever they do, it seems to work better. In terms of smooth pavement.
(not to mention a lack of corrupt county commisioners who, independent of the walkablility factor, have their milk and oreos delivered by helicopter)

Sorry. Off topic: "Future highway or interstate expansion?" No. "Future highway and/or interstate expansion"? Qualified Maybe.

"How many trucks is one winter and one summer equal to?"
are we talking northern or southern hemisphere?
are we comparing rail-hauled apples or grapes from california on a truck?
are we attempting to discern the correct (your) answer? =)

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't hate anything. Except maybe when there is no milk and the fridge and I have half a package of Oreo's that are calling my name. I hate it when that happens.

Are you a fairy? Because exactly what you just, just now, HAPPENED TO ME!!!!!! lol now I have to drive to 7/11 for some milk. >_< haha

[Plutonic Panda]

milk and oreos delivered by helicopter

At this point, it'd be something to have delivered by and ordinance drop from a satellite in space.

[ljbab728]

I can envision them removing the gasoline tax and replacing it with a line item on your tax return asking how many miles you drove in the previous year and then you pay a tax on that amount. When your car is sold/traded in/scrapped/switch insurance companies/registered/etc... they will check a national database to ensure your reported mileage matches the actual mileage and if it doesn't you will get hit with a hefty penalty.
At some point I could even see them graduating the tax: 10 cents a mile for the first 10,000 miles, 12 cents for the next 10,000, and 15 cents for every mile after 20,000 miles a year. So if you drive 25,000 miles a year you would owe $2,950 in mileage tax.

Kerry, so your thinking is that farmers, ranchers, oil field workers, etc., should have to pay for having to drive great distances for services?

[Video Expert]

There is a big difference between us. I want Oklahoma City to be nice place to live. You don't want to live in it. You want it to be an easy place to get to while you live somewhere else.

Oh really?? I have a business in OKC that creates both jobs as well as sales tax revenue for the city. I lived in Oklahoma City for many years and will always want it to be a nice place to live. I damn sure want it to be an easy place to get in and around for both residents and visitors alike. My reasons for currently living elsewhere have nothing to do with not "wanting to live in OKC."

Nice try.

[Plutonic Panda]

Ready for me to change your life? Next time you can, go to Native Roots and get a half-gallon of their milk. It's not as cheap as what you can get at 7/11 but you also need to shake it good first if you know what I mean. It's like dunking your cookie in pure cream.

Somehow, make that fit into the highway discussion.

lol, somehow I knew you were going to say something like that haha. Now, we could build a special highway network that would allow for emergency milk deliveries for vans to travel at high speeds to and no other traffic to deliver milk, but that would likely contribute to more sprawl as people can finely move out in the outskirts and have milk delivered to them in about 1 minute lol idk

[Just the facts]

Kerry, so your thinking is that farmers, ranchers, oil field workers, etc., should have to pay for having to drive great distances for services?

Short Answer: Yes

Slightly Longer Answer: They only go to the store once a month so they shouldn't be impacted too much. Plus it would be a replacement to the gasoline tax and then adjusted upward to cover the cost of freeway maintenance and expansion so what's the problem? Of course, if things got built the way I want them built the farmers and ranchers would be a lot closer to goods and services and the oil field guy would be unemployed due to a supply glut.

[Plutonic Panda]

Sounds like a plan!

and in the back of your mind. . . *or you could just move to a more urban walkable environment and just walk a few blocks down the street and pick up the milk at Sprouts* lol am I right?

[ljbab728]

Short Answer: Yes

Slightly Longer Answer: They only go to the store once a month so they shouldn't be impacted too much. Plus it would be a replacement to the gasoline tax and then adjusted upward to cover the cost of freeway maintenance and expansion so what's the problem? Of course, if things got built the way I want them built the farmers and ranchers would be a lot closer to goods and services and the oil field guy would be unemployed due to a supply glut.

Obviously you never lived on a farm like I did. Once a month? LOL
Just one quick example is selling eggs. We took eggs to a grocery store in the city. I do believe that we did it more than once a month since we were never able to train our hens to just lay once a month.

[Plutonic Panda]

I've always said... I don't care where you live. Just don't ask me to live in buildings that look like your home or pay for you to live anywhere you please. Let cities be cities and rural be rural and everyone pay for what they use.

That's always what's in the back of my mind.

Ahhhh, I'm not like that, I'm for freedom and options for everyone!

[Just the facts]

Obviously you never lived on a farm like I did. Once a month? LOL

My mom grew up on a farm and she told me they only went to town once a month. I guess maybe if they had a paved road to their house they might have gone more often. Of course, she lived on a real farm with pigs, chickens, goats, a couple of cows, and a few crops; not on a single product factory farm like we have to day so they didn't need that much from town. She told me one Easter when she was 7 years old she wanted to dye eggs but grandma wouldn't let her, but mon and my aunt did it anyhow. After they got done they were scared they would get in trouble so they put the eggs back in the chicken coop. She said grandma never said a word when she went to collect the eggs the next morning and they were all blue.

[ljbab728]

My mom grew up on a farm and she told me they only went to town once a month. I guess maybe if they had a paved road to their house they might have gone more. Of course, she lived on a real farm with pigs, chickens, goats, a couple of cows, and a few crops; not on a single product factory farm like we have to day so they didn't need that much from town. She told me one Easter when she was 7 years old she wanted to dye eggs but grandma would let her, but mon and my aunt did it anyhow. After they got done they were scared they would get in trouble so they put the eggs back in the chicken coop. She said grandma never said a word when she went to collect the eggs the next morning and they were all blue.

LOL, cute story, Kerry.

Single use farm or no, thinking a modern farmer would only need to go to town once a month is not being reasonable.

My farm also had pigs, chickens and quite a few cows. We never had any of those nasty goats though. Biggest crops were wheat, alfalfa, and corn.

[Just the facts]

LOL, cute story, Kerry.

Single use farm or no, thinking a modern farmer would only need to go to town once a month is not being reasonable.

My farm also had pigs, chickens and quite a few cows. We never had any of those nasty goats though. Biggest crops were wheat, alfalfa, and corn.

Yea, I was just joking about the once a month thing. Little ole' ladies woudn't have to worry either since they only drive on Sunday's.

Here is what it comes down to though. Freeways are crazy expensive to build and they cost even more to maintain. The federal gasoline tax was created to pay for it but it currently only collects 1/2 of what is needed and that is going to get worse as cars get better gas milage and an increasing number of cars don't use any fuel at all. So how much is fuel economy expected to change? In 2015 the average is supposed to be 34.5 mpg but by 2025 that goes to 54.5 mpg. Sales of electric vehicles tripled last year to over 50,000 cars. While that is still a small number it is not going to slow down. New drivers also are not occuring at the rate they used to as the younger generation is choosing not to drive at all and the baby boomers are trading in the car for walkable neighborhoods (miles driven peaked in 2008). Then we have a federal government that is basically broke and has resorted to direct loans from the Fed to keep the lights on (and we all know how that is going to end). And finally, our current infrastrucutre requires $2 trillion just to fix it.

Some people want to blame the semis but the reality is the biggest factor in road destruction is mother nature. If no car or semi drove on the road at all it would still need to be maintained because nature would destroy it.

So back to farmers, ranchers, and oil field workers - I am not into exemptions, exceptions, etc... we are all in this together. If that results in my Ceasar salad costing more then so be it because we have been masking the real cost of providing goods and services for far too long. We have to start paying what things cost becasue we can't live on debt forever.

[Jim Kyle]

Plus it would be a replacement to the gasoline tax and then adjusted upward to cover the cost of freeway maintenance and expansion so what's the problem?

Has any tax ever been replaced? Seems to me the new ones are simply added on, but the old ones linger on forever...

[hoya]

I think some visualizations might help.

It is much cheaper for a city to maintain roads and other infrastructure when you build neighborhoods like this:







Rather than building neighborhoods like this:



We as a city should promote the first type of construction, because that's best for us. We should not bend over backwards to support the second type of construction, because it's incredibly expensive to maintain.


Edit: Note that all those neighborhoods are way more expensive than I can afford, and I would be happy to accept a residence in any of them as a gift, in case someone is feeling generous.

[BoulderSooner]

The roads in your third pic cost way less to build and pretty much require no maintance

[Just the facts]

Has any tax ever been replaced? Seems to me the new ones are simply added on, but the old ones linger on forever...

Good point, but we still need the money so maybe we end up with both. I did see where Seattle was proposing a $25 fee when you buy a bike to support the cost of bicycle related infrastructure.

[ljbab728]

Good point, but we still need the money so maybe we end up with both. I did see where Seattle was proposing a $25 fee when you buy a bike to support the cost of bicycle related infrastructure.

You mean they aren't going to tax the bicycle riders based on how far the ride? LOL

[ou48A]

Since only a very tiny fraction of the population rides a bike for any distance shouldn’t they require bike riders over a certain age to have a license to drive and also a license tag on the bicycle? And shouldn’t the price of these licenses be high enough to subsanually cover the cost of these new bicycle lanes.
While we at it I guess we should start charging people to walk on our trails and sidewalks too.

[ljbab728]

While we at it I guess we should start charging people to walk on our trails and sidewalks too.

Yes, and the further they walk, the more they should be charged.