Future highway or interstate expansion?

[LakeEffect]

there is so much ignorance in this thread it is heartbreaking.

No one, not even jtf on one of his wildest days, is saying that you can't move into the suburbs. You can live wherever the hell you want to live. This is america. And if you want to live 75 miles outside of the city and drive in every day, more power to you. If you want to get in your car, drive 15 feet to the driveway of the guy across the street, then go ahead.

Some people are acting as if urbanists want to burn the flag, rape your wives, and make everyone take the bus to work. And you're most upset about the bus part.

The fact is that highways are freakishly expensive. We spent nearly a billion dollars rebuilding 4 miles of road with the new crosstown. We have one of the highest percentages of roads in poor repair in the country. We have twice as many toll road miles (per capita) as the #2 state. We have 3 times the national average in road miles per capita. We rank 25th in highway spending, but only 43rd per mile of road because of the amount of road we have for each person.

Conclusion: Oklahoma has a lot of roads.

We also have a very large amount of empty space within our city limits. As aerial photographs show, there are very large swaths of land within the city that are 1) undeveloped, and 2) right next to an interstate. Your desire of "i wanna build a house umm... Over there" does not mean that it's a good friggin' idea for the people of okc or this state to build a freeway for you.

I have seen two arguments here. 1) free country, i can live where i want. 2) more roads are great, and will help the city! The first is true. You can move where you want. But i don't have to pay for the wild hair you have up your ass. The second is just pure retarded. We have too many roads as it is. We have difficulty maintaining them. Does public transportation pay for itself? No, but neither does your friggin' highway!

::like::

[BoulderSooner]

I think within the next few years we are going to see a national mileage tax. The current gasoline tax only covers half the cost of road maintenance and with increasing fuel efficiency and a growing number of cars not even using gasoline they will have to get the money from someone.

I can envision them removing the gasoline tax and replacing it with a line item on your tax return asking how many miles you drove in the previous year and then you pay a tax on that amount. When your car is sold/traded in/scrapped/switch insurance companies/registered/etc... they will check a national database to ensure your reported mileage matches the actual mileage and if it doesn't you will get hit with a hefty penalty.

At some point I could even see them graduating the tax: 10 cents a mile for the first 10,000 miles, 12 cents for the next 10,000, and 15 cents for every mile after 20,000 miles a year. So if you drive 25,000 miles a year you would owe $2,950 in mileage tax.

no chance ever ..

[soonerliberal]

I think the best way to improve the highway system in OKC metro would be for the bottleneck and safety issues to be resolved. The I-40/I-44 intersection (Amarillo junction) only has two thru lanes in each direction, creating a significant daily bottleneck. While many people exit the freeways to go a different direction, a significant majority of the drivers continue in the same direction. Finishing up the I-235/44 junction and 50th/Santa Fe intersection will help as well. Creating a real intersection that doesn't involve stoplights for the Lake Hefner Parkway / Kilpatrick Turnpike will also help things. Finally, as soon as they complete the I-35/240 junction, a huge safety concern will be alleviated.

As far as expansion, I can see the logic in expanding the Lake Hefner Parkway northward. However, I am not sure if it should be limited access. I think a divided highway with at grade intersections will suffice.

[HangryHippo]

There is so much ignorance in this thread it is heartbreaking.

No one, not even JTF on one of his wildest days, is saying that you can't move into the suburbs. You can live wherever the hell you want to live. This is America. And if you want to live 75 miles outside of the city and drive in every day, more power to you. If you want to get in your car, drive 15 feet to the driveway of the guy across the street, then go ahead.

Some people are acting as if urbanists want to burn the flag, rape your wives, and make everyone take the bus to work. And you're most upset about the bus part.

The fact is that highways are freakishly expensive. We spent nearly a billion dollars rebuilding 4 miles of road with the new Crosstown. We have one of the highest percentages of roads in poor repair in the country. We have twice as many toll road miles (per capita) as the #2 state. We have 3 times the national average in road miles per capita. We rank 25th in highway spending, but only 43rd per mile of road because of the amount of road we have for each person.

Conclusion: Oklahoma has a lot of roads.

We also have a very large amount of empty space within our city limits. As aerial photographs show, there are very large swaths of land within the city that are 1) undeveloped, and 2) right next to an interstate. Your desire of "I wanna build a house umm... over there" does not mean that it's a good friggin' idea for the people of OKC or this state to build a freeway for you.

I have seen two arguments here. 1) Free country, I can live where I want. 2) More roads are great, and will help the city! The first is true. You can move where you want. But I don't have to pay for the wild hair you have up your ass. The second is just pure retarded. We have too many roads as it is. We have difficulty maintaining them. Does public transportation pay for itself? No, but neither does your friggin' highway!

This is terrific. +1!

[betts]

Well maybe they should take that issue up and try and force everyone to live where they want us to live. I trust they know what's best for us.



So I guess you have a problem being dumped off at some train station and walking perhaps a mile or two to your eventual destination? We could all use the exercise, right? Or taking a bus or cab from there? What do you have against buses and cab drivers? I guess you think we should just be able to have the freedom to use an automobile to drive from Point A to Point B whenever we want. That's so outrageous!

But we all pay for your ability to drive right to your front door, both for the highways and for health care for the sedentary through increases in insurance rates. So, while a highway might be worth discussing, so is not building one. And even those who won't drive it have the right to discuss how it's going to be paid for. Perhaps turnpikes are the best answer. If you use it, you pay and if you don't, you save your money.

I'm ending a week in Chicago where we've been in the car once in a week. We walk to get our coffee in the mornings. We walk to the grocery store (Trader Joe's!) to get our food for dinner. We walk to the hardware store if we need something (I'm helping my daughter and son-in-law move into their 100+ year old row house). If we don't want to cook, we walk to a restaurant. I've been on a highway to get to her house from the airport and that's it. They both take the train to work downtown, and either walk to the Brown line or take a bus to the red line. This is how I would like to live and I think we'd all be healthier and perhaps a bit happier if there were similar options in OKC.

[CaptDave]

There is so much ignorance in this thread it is heartbreaking.

No one, not even JTF on one of his wildest days, is saying that you can't move into the suburbs. You can live wherever the hell you want to live. This is America. And if you want to live 75 miles outside of the city and drive in every day, more power to you. If you want to get in your car, drive 15 feet to the driveway of the guy across the street, then go ahead.

Some people are acting as if urbanists want to burn the flag, rape your wives, and make everyone take the bus to work. And you're most upset about the bus part.

The fact is that highways are freakishly expensive. We spent nearly a billion dollars rebuilding 4 miles of road with the new Crosstown. We have one of the highest percentages of roads in poor repair in the country. We have twice as many toll road miles (per capita) as the #2 state. We have 3 times the national average in road miles per capita. We rank 25th in highway spending, but only 43rd per mile of road because of the amount of road we have for each person.

Conclusion: Oklahoma has a lot of roads.

We also have a very large amount of empty space within our city limits. As aerial photographs show, there are very large swaths of land within the city that are 1) undeveloped, and 2) right next to an interstate. Your desire of "I wanna build a house umm... over there" does not mean that it's a good friggin' idea for the people of OKC or this state to build a freeway for you.

I have seen two arguments here. 1) Free country, I can live where I want. 2) More roads are great, and will help the city! The first is true. You can move where you want. But I don't have to pay for the wild hair you have up your ass. The second is just pure retarded. We have too many roads as it is. We have difficulty maintaining them. Does public transportation pay for itself? No, but neither does your friggin' highway!

Well stated.

[Richard at Remax]

Another thing I noticed while I was down here was that they ripped up the center median on I-10 from the beltway area intersection to Katy and put in a toll lane to alleviate traffic. I think it is $4 each way. I don't think we have the traffic counts to warrant such a thing. And have no idea where the money goes in terms of whole highway system or just the two toll lanes, but thought it was a pretty ingenious idea to temp people out of $4-8 to bypass traffic

[Jesseda]

It isn't really, but I think cafeboeuf is assuming you knew in advance some of the negative responses you will eventually generate from a significant segment of this community that will have nothing to do with actually answering your question. I'll give you some examples here in advance.

1. "We don't need any more highways. They help foster evil 'urban sprawl'."
2 "We need 'light rail'. Trains and Streetcars are the answer...not freeways!"
3. "I'm glad the SW Loop is on the backburner. All we'll get from it is 'bad growth' and more 'cookie cutter' housing additions."
4. "Suburban highways do not help or contribute to the 'urban core.'
5. "Get ready for more 'cheesy' strip centers and big box retailers."
6. "Oklahoma City is already too spread out. Everyone should live in or near Downtown/Midtown."
7. "That's just what we need...another multi-laned expressway."

I could go on, but I think you'll get the point.

thanks for explaining the reason TROLLING was used. wow some people get all uptight about simple questions on this forum

[LakeEffect]

thanks for explaining the reason TROLLING was used. wow some people get all uptight about simple questions on this forum

My point was really related to your last phrase: "I hope that something is planned soon." Why would you think something needs to be planned soon?

[Jesseda]

My point was really related to your last phrase: "I hope that something is planned soon." Why would you think something needs to be planned soon?

well trafffic from I-35 morning and evening from i-240 to norman is crazy. i-44 from 7:30 am till around 9 is backed up.. a lot of people are moving to the s.w part of the metro s.w 134th street from i-44 all the way to moore can prove that issue and s.w 149th street is growing. i-44 seems that it can not handle the traffic during the rush hours anymore as it is, wonder what it will be like in 5 years if nothing is done.

[LakeEffect]

The two things you propose won't do anything to fix those specific problems... most of these people are traveling to jobs in and around the core and using new roads would cause them to go out of their way. The highways you talk about would simply expand the sprawl and the traffic. Induced demand - build it and people will fill it up.

[Plutonic Panda]

The two things you propose won't do anything to fix those specific problems... most of these people are traveling to jobs in and around the core and using new roads would cause them to go out of their way. The highways you talk about would simply expand the sprawl and the traffic. Induced demand - build it and people will fill it up.

So just don't do anything then? I think the time is really coming for I-35 to be widened to 4 lanes in each direction. At the very least, just widen the part going from Downtown OKC to Norman, I am not kidding that thing is bumper to bumper traffic all the way to shields and I'm assuming it's the same way with the rest of highway.

[catch22]

By the time you get the 4th lane done, it will be at capacity. By the time you get the 5th lane done, it will be at capacity. We should upgrade our interchanges to reduce bottlenecks, and concentrate future funds on alternative transportation. Traffic jams cannot be eliminated by adding lanes.

[Plutonic Panda]

So, to understand this right(which let me say, I am all for alt. transport. Light-rail, bus network, new sidewalks, bike lanes and paths ect. you name it), once we complete our rebuild of the existing interchanges, you wouldn't be for any widening and/or new construction of any highways???

BTW, If we built the highway quick enough like Dallas does, it wouldn't be at capacity as quick. The new 635 rebuild, I bet you won't immediately be at capacity when completed. The new Crosstown isn't at capacity yet.

[LakeEffect]

So, to understand this right(which let me say, I am all for alt. transport. Light-rail, bus network, new sidewalks, bike lanes and paths ect. you name it), once we complete our rebuild of the existing interchanges, you wouldn't be for any widening and/or new construction of any highways???

BTW, If we built the highway quick enough like Dallas does, it wouldn't be at capacity as quick. The new 635 rebuild, I bet you won't immediately be at capacity when completed. The new Crosstown isn't at capacity yet.

Yes. That's exactly the point. Adding lanes NEVER solves congestion problems. It's called induced demand.

Long term, I think if I-35 was made straighter around Shields/Moore, it would get faster simply because so many people slow down for the curves. Same with I-44 down near SW 29th/SW44th. I am always amazed at the slowing of traffic in those turns. One person slows, then another, and another and finally traffic stops.

[LakeEffect]

So, to understand this right(which let me say, I am all for alt. transport. Light-rail, bus network, new sidewalks, bike lanes and paths ect. you name it), once we complete our rebuild of the existing interchanges, you wouldn't be for any widening and/or new construction of any highways???

BTW, If we built the highway quick enough like Dallas does, it wouldn't be at capacity as quick. The new 635 rebuild, I bet you won't immediately be at capacity when completed. The new Crosstown isn't at capacity yet.

Also, I can't source it, but I swear I heard even Gary Ridley say that ODOT wouldn't be building any more new highways, just rebuilding and upgrading existing.

[catch22]

So, to understand this right(which let me say, I am all for alt. transport. Light-rail, bus network, new sidewalks, bike lanes and paths ect. you name it), once we complete our rebuild of the existing interchanges, you wouldn't be for any widening and/or new construction of any highways???

BTW, If we built the highway quick enough like Dallas does, it wouldn't be at capacity as quick. The new 635 rebuild, I bet you won't immediately be at capacity when completed. The new Crosstown isn't at capacity yet.

In select areas we could add some lanes where needed to smooth out bottleneck areas, but adding lanes as inventory to reduce congestion is bad planning.

[adaniel]

I sometimes get the sense that a lot of people here don't fully grasp the concept of what heavy traffic is. If you are going slow on a highway, then OMG traffic is terrible and the highway needs to be widened. Yet, for the vast majority of people in this city, their commutes are 30 minutes or less. No doubt that 35 can get bad, but most of Moore is reachable from downtown OKC in 30 minutes, Norman, 40 minutes. Unless there is a wreck or something. I think most of the backup you see on 35 is related to the 240 interchange, which is slated for reconstruction in a few years anyway.

It is not the job of ODOT to make sure everyone can go 70 on the freeway during rush hour. Its had that mentality too long, and that's why its now broke AF and unable to keep up with what it has. And this entire thread is a moot point, because its like that everywhere. There is no money, period. Gas tax collections are down, the FHWA is scrambling for funds. Its just the truth. I guess we can do the Texas route and toll people to kingdom come. But the way we look at things is just going to have to change. I think thats what people are trying to say here.

[Plutonic Panda]

Also, I can't source it, but I swear I heard even Gary Ridley say that ODOT wouldn't be building any more new highways, just rebuilding and upgrading existing.

Well, it wouldn't surprise me. In general, OKC really has mild traffic. I think just this one highway should be widened and probably out by Hefner Parkway should be extended and our interchanges fixed and we should be good for awhile.

[Plutonic Panda]

In select areas we could add some lanes where needed to smooth out bottleneck areas, but adding lanes as inventory to reduce congestion is bad planning.

Eeeeeeeehhhhh, I agree to a certain extent.

[Plutonic Panda]

I sometimes get the sense that a lot of people here don't fully grasp the concept of what heavy traffic is. If you are going slow on a highway, then OMG traffic is terrible and the highway needs to be widened. Yet, for the vast majority of people in this city, their commutes are 30 minutes or less. No doubt that 35 can get bad, but most of Moore is reachable from downtown OKC in 30 minutes, Norman, 40 minutes. Unless there is a wreck or something. I think most of the backup you see on 35 is related to the 240 interchange, which is slated for reconstruction in a few years anyway.

It is not the job of ODOT to make sure everyone can go 70 on the freeway during rush hour. Its had that mentality too long, and that's why its now broke AF and unable to keep up with what it has. And this entire thread is a moot point, because its like that everywhere. There is no money, period. Gas tax collections are down, the FHWA is scrambling for funds. Its just the truth. I guess we can do the Texas route and toll people to kingdom come. But the way we look at things is just going to have to change. I think thats what people are trying to say here.

I could be kind of a hypocrite for saying this, but whenever people tell me OKC traffic is horrible or is getting awful, I kind of laugh and say well, you can go down to Atl, Houston, or LA for a bit and maybe you might rethink that lol

[Jesseda]

I could be kind of a hypocrite for saying this, but whenever people tell me OKC traffic is horrible or is getting awful, I kind of laugh and say well, you can go down to Atl, Houston, or LA for a bit and maybe you might rethink that lol

I am from the bay area, so I know traffic. I just dont want okc to be like the bay area traffic. OKC has time NOW for a plan. Not wait until its a to late plan.

[Just the facts]

There is no money, period. Gas tax collections are down, the FHWA is scrambling for funds. Its just the truth. I guess we can do the Texas route and toll people to kingdom come. But the way we look at things is just going to have to change. I think thats what people are trying to say here.

This is the realization the State of Florida finally came to. Nearly all new roads (and lanes) in Florida will be toll. The biggest is getting ready to start in Orlando. The I-4 expansion is going to be tolled and will cost up to $13 roundtrip to get to downtown Orlando. To their credit though, SunRail starts serivce next year and you can make the same trip faster for less money roundtrip than a gallon of gas.

Plans move forward on Interstate 4 toll expansion | Local News - WESH Home

http://www.sunrail.com/evolve/splash_page.html

[Plutonic Panda]

JFT, why would you want a milage tax instead of just raising the current gas tax? Wouldn't it be easier to sell and make things less complicated?

[BoulderSooner]

By the time you get the 4th lane done, it will be at capacity. By the time you get the 5th lane done, it will be at capacity. We should upgrade our interchanges to reduce bottlenecks, and concentrate future funds on alternative transportation. Traffic jams cannot be eliminated by adding lanes.

i don't totally agree with this .....


so you are saying if we made I35 from OKC to highway 9 west .. 6 lanes each way with 2 toll lanes each way it would be full when it is done??

not a chance .. it would take decades for it to fill ..


the new cross town is never full until to get to the west end where is reduces because of the bridge over I44


now in huge cities with tons of traffic and population i agree with you adding a lane in houston or boston or NYC of course you just induce demand .. because in those cities demand far out does supply