Future highway or interstate expansion?

[CaptDave]

Well, I still don't really like that idea. People that choose to go around might have make a quick, last minute decision to get off and explore the city or stop at a restaurant and help out the economy there.

Then it wouldn't really be a bypass would it? 840 is actually a bypass until you get into the Smryna/Murphreesboro area.

Highways in cities are the ones that cause induced demand. Comparing an actual bypass to a highway in a city is apples to oranges.

[Dubya61]

Atlanta is a little weird when it comes to mass transit. Most of the people want it but the civic leaders in surrounding cities and counties don't want it. I think they are afraid their local corporate base will relocate downtown if the commute gets easier because the traffic is a major selling point for the outer ring communities.

JTF, I spoke with a former mayor of one of the in-close 'burbs recently and asked him what would make his city contribute to a rail-based connection to Bricktown / CBD. He told me that there was no good reason for him to contribute to his locals to find an easier way to spend money outside of his taxable base (or words to that effect). If I read him right, he was saying that it would cause his municipality to lose sales tax revenue.

[Just the facts]

JTF, I spoke with a former mayor of one of the in-close 'burbs recently and asked him what would make his city contribute to a rail-based connection to Bricktown / CBD. He told me that there was no good reason for him to contribute to his locals to find an easier way to spend money outside of his taxable base (or words to that effect). If I read him right, he was saying that it would cause his municipality to lose sales tax revenue.

Which begs the question - what kind of hell hole was he mayor of that would cause the population to flee with the first cheap way out? . You should ask the former Mayor how he feels about roads connecting to his town from other areas.

Of course, his attitude is no different from many of the suburbs around Salt Lake City who had the same short-sighted mentality. Then they found out that no one wanted to move to or shop in their town because it didn't have regional transit. Now they are standing in line to get rail service.

[hoya]

Which begs the question - what kind of hell hole was he mayor of that would cause the population to flee with the first cheap way out? . You should ask the former Mayor how he feels about roads connecting to his town from other areas.

Of course, his attitude is no different from many of the suburbs around Salt Lake City who had the same short-sighted mentality. Then they found out that no one wanted to move to or shop in their town because it didn't have regional transit. Now they are standing in line to get rail service.

That's exactly right. When DC installed their Metro subway system, the Georgetown area of the city told them they didn't want it. They didn't want the riff-raff having an easy way into their area of town. Now they'd love to get service there, but it would be too expensive to do at this point.

I live in MWC, and I'm quite familiar with where the train tracks run in that area. You'd be looking at two great locations for a rail stop. The first is at Reno and Sooner Rd. There's a whole lot of nothing at that intersection right now. It would be easy to put a station there. The land around it, dominated by an Anthony's and a strip mall, would go up in value fairly quickly. With decent zoning and a good growth plan you could turn it from a neglected area into a thriving shopping area. The second place is on Air Depot in what is currently a Golden Corral parking lot. Midwest City's most heavily travelled road could get a sizeable amount of foot traffic, which would increase the density of an already successful restaurant corridor.

The places where these rail stops are built draw development. They increase property values. It becomes not just a place to get on the train, but a destination. People who get off the plane at Will Rogers never have to rent a car. When they don't rent a car, they will stay at a hotel on the rail line. They will eat at restaurants within easy walking distance. Those locations become highly valuable, especially if you steer new construction away from huge parking lots and towards nice sidewalks and urban amenities.

Edit: Imagine if each stop had its own tiny Bricktown. Not a copy of Bricktown, but a Main Street-styled development for a block or two in all directions. Think people in Midwest City, or Edmond, or Norman might like that?

[Rover]

Actually, with the new jobs coming downtown, the suburbs should like the trains coming out that way. It will be easier for them to keep urban sprawling as the people can live more cheaply out there and commute downtown to the jobs. Then, they can get out of town when their day is over. Electric commuter trains is one of the things that spurred suburban development on the east coast cities.

[Just the facts]

Actually, with the new jobs coming downtown, the suburbs should like the trains coming out that way. It will be easier for them to keep urban sprawling as the people can live more cheaply out there and commute downtown to the jobs. Then, they can get out of town when their day is over. Electric commuter trains is one of the things that spurred suburban development on the east coast cities.

...which is why I am opposed to park and ride lots. All mass transit riders should start and end as pedestrians. Trains should connect urban centers, not giant remote parking lots.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...-car-use/5034/

On paper, park-and-ride facilities seem like the ultimate transport compromise. Free or cheap parking near transit stations should, if the theory holds, make partial transit riders of metro area residents who used to drive the whole way into work. The system acts like a nicotine gum for daily commutes — weaning people slowly off the single-occupancy car.

In reality, some transport experts wonder whether park-and-ride does more harm than good. A study of park-and-ride facilities from the early 1990s found they don't necessarily ease congestion because they unleash latent demand for road space. Other research has come out similarly skeptical that park-and-ride reduces car use, though much of it has centered on bus-based transit.

A new study of park-and-ride at rail-based transit stations doesn't offer much in the way of encouragement. In an upcoming issue of the Journal of Transport Geography, Dutch researcher Giuliano Mingardo reports that park-and-ride facilities in two major metro areas create four measurable "unintended effects" that not only limit the benefits of transit but may even increase vehicle travel in the metro area.

[macfoucin]

I'm curious has anyone floated the idea of extending highway 9 at the RiverWind casino east of I-35? This would alliviate some congetsion on I-35 and provide another "over the river" route into Norman besides I-35.

[adaniel]

I'm curious has anyone floated the idea of extending highway 9 at the RiverWind casino east of I-35? This would alliviate some congetsion on I-35 and provide another "over the river" route into Norman besides I-35.

My only issue with this is that OK-9 in its current form serves as a reliever to Lindsey Street. If you reroute the road, I imagine most people would then skip over to Lindsey and clog it up even more than it is now (which is hard to imagine).

I do agree with your premise that another river crossing in Norman would be nice.

[venture]

I'm curious has anyone floated the idea of extending highway 9 at the RiverWind casino east of I-35? This would alliviate some congetsion on I-35 and provide another "over the river" route into Norman besides I-35.

It would bypass much of South Norman and be completely useless there though. I would much rather see SW 24th just extended over the river and connected either Jessie Dr/Jerry Black Ln that is directly across from it. That would provide a non-interstate river crossing which is needed IMO.

If we would look at any additional highways in Norman I think it would be confined to upgrading Hwy 9 to limited access and perhaps a spur from Hwy 37/44 in Newcastle directly east along Indian Hills. Anything more wouldn't be needed if we are serious about commuter rail.

[Plutonic Panda]

This is a piece I wrote about in another thread, but thought I'd post it here to as it would be more appropriate.

This is about the highways in SW OKC near the airport.
------------

Don't loose your sh!t over this and I'm not saying this needs to be done immediately, but I would turn SW 74th St. into a highway with interstate standards and connect it to I-40 shortly after it passes Clear Springs Road. I would also add a light-rail line with widening Airport road to 3 lanes in each direction and making the exit ramp to South bound I-44 two lanes instead of one.

Really, the entire interchanges of I-44/I-240 and I-44/Airport Road should be redone. Service roads continued along I-44/I-240. I also think a grand statue or a large sign for the airport would be cool somewhere along the highway.

I would also continue the Kilpatrick Turnpike down to the Newcastle Spur.

The airport is adding gates and will probably grow in traffic as new tourist and 'out-of-state' attractions are built(convention center, new fairgrounds expo, white water, and all the other development and businesses that are popping up in OKC), there is supposedly a bunch of new commercial development that is going to occur on SW 54th St., Hobby Lobby is experiencing a massive boom with no end in sight building new warehouses left and right; now one of the largest of its kind in the US, new spec and distribution centers are beginning to pop up(American Tire Distributors), and Mustang is beginning to really take off and I believe the entire SW OKC will begin to experience some solid growth soon, so that all speaks for itself.

Yes you would have to demolish houses and businesses for this. Yes, that is how a lot of highways get built. Yes, I know you and a lot of people on here will be against this. Yes, I know it will cost a lot of money. But that is the route I think they should take. We can get ahead of it now, or wait until our highways start to resemble Austin's. You can say oh OKC is a long ways out from that and blah blah, but I wonder how they felt about in the 90's. Highways don't exactly go up over night, that also includes the political aspect of it to(eminent domain, demolishing houses, acquiring the land, and actually building it), so it isn't crazy to assume it could possibly take 10 years to really get it going before we see ground break on it. By that time, traffic will have already likely have been bad and then couple on new construction it becomes a safety risk. I would just shut the entire thing down, but you and I know that won't happen.

[adaniel]

^
No.

[Plutonic Panda]

^
No.

I know man.

but seriously, I stick by it. It will eventually have to be done anyways at some point.

[venture]

Don't loose your sh!t over this and I'm not saying this needs to be done immediately, but I would turn SW 74th St. into a highway with interstate standards and connect it to I-40 shortly after it passes Clear Springs Road. I would also add a light-rail line with widening Airport road to 3 lanes in each direction and making the exit ramp to South bound I-44 two lanes instead of one.

You do realize that 152 is pretty much the main E-W road through Mustang right? You can't turn it into a highway with interstate standards. How are you going to reasonably connect it to I-40 when it is several miles to the south? There isn't any point to revamping it anymore than what was already done. As far as having 2 lanes to WB I-44...there is rarely any major traffic issues with that ramp because of being a single lane. Also, it use to be 2-lanes and was actually reduced. The issues are further south, not with the Airport Road ramp.

Really, the entire interchanges of I-44/I-240 and I-44/Airport Road should be redone. Service roads continued along I-44/I-240. I also think a grand statue or a large sign for the airport would be cool somewhere along the highway.

I-44 and Airport Road is fine as it is. I-240/44 could use an additional through lane going south to help with congestion. Honestly the biggest issue with that area is the exit for SW 59th/54th that causes the most issues - at least for West (south) bound traffic. One option that would make it better would be to have I-44 break off before the on ramp from 59th joins the highway. That way there isn't an issue with crossing traffic. Then I would have a 2nd lane from 59th to I-44 that doesn't even impact the traffic that would remain on I-240.

Service roads are not needed in this area. I really don't get the infatuation with them. Not every interstate needs a service road. My home town has exactly ZERO service roads on all the major interstates in it. There is zero need for a service road in this area.

I would also continue the Kilpatrick Turnpike down to the Newcastle Spur.

Never heard it ever called Newcastle Spur, but I think there was a plan to have the Kilpatrick connect with Highway 4 out of Eastern Mustang, but there are a few brand new housing developments that are now in the way. It's not impossible to connect, it won't be cheap and it will be a very wavy road. It won't be a true bypass though since Highway 4 south of there isn't easily upgradeable at all. It still provides a good alternative to I-44 and also the Norman Spur.

The justification posted though really doesn't help your case as the existing infrastructure will handle anything that is planned right now. Yes there are some things that could use some minor fixes, but that's about it.

[Snowman]

Never heard it ever called Newcastle Spur, but I think there was a plan to have the Kilpatrick connect with Highway 4 out of Eastern Mustang, but there are a few brand new housing developments that are now in the way. It's not impossible to connect, it won't be cheap and it will be a very wavy road. It won't be a true bypass though since Highway 4 south of there isn't easily upgradeable at all. It still provides a good alternative to I-44 and also the Norman Spur.

The Kirkpatrick extension was just a study, which while found it was technically possible there was not enough political will to actually build it. Though it looks like the idea is not entirely dead, since in the last year or two there has been an updated theoretical path that avoids construction since the original route was drawn up.

Thinking back on it, it seems almost like they were only considering connecting the Kirkpatrick with i35 when designing it and ignored the Mustang population that might start using if it would have been more convenient for them. It could pick up a lot of the north and east traffic of Mustang / Near Mustang OKC if it followed Sara road further south to nearer to 54th/59th, then turned east to connect with Airport road before going the southeast direction they planed.

[Geographer]

^
No.

+1

[bchris02]

I think OKC currently has three pressing needs when it comes to highway development.

The I-235/I-44 interchange. This needs to be a 4-level stack and I-235 needs to be widened to at least six lanes between I-44 and 36th St. One of the biggest traffic bottlenecks in the metro is this interchange.

The I-240/I-35 interchange - This interchange is an embarassment. It should be at least a 4-level stack. There has been talk of redoing that interchange for decades yet it doesn't seem to be anywhere closer to being rebuilt than it was in 1994.

I-44/Airport Rd - Not sure why but there is always a traffic bottleneck there. Something needs to be done to keep traffic flowing more smoothly through that area.

It would also be great to get a 5-stack interchange at I-40/I-44 but its doubtful it will ever happen. As far as additional highways, eventually I-240 and/or Airport Rd may need to be connected to the Kilpatrick Turnpike, but I think OKC is still a ways off from that need becoming pressing. I think I-35 should really be at ten lanes with one HOV lane each direction from Norman to I-40 uniterrupted.

[venture]

The I-235/I-44 interchange. This needs to be a 4-level stack and I-235 needs to be widened to at least six lanes between I-44 and 36th St. One of the biggest traffic bottlenecks in the metro is this interchange.

Why stop at 4? I say go to 8.

The I-240/I-35 interchange - This interchange is an embarassment. It should be at least a 4-level stack. There has been talk of redoing that interchange for decades yet it doesn't seem to be anywhere closer to being rebuilt than it was in 1994.

Yes it should be redone, but ODOT has a funding issue and that's why we are still a few years off from it starting.

I-44/Airport Rd - Not sure why but there is always a traffic bottleneck there. Something needs to be done to keep traffic flowing more smoothly through that area.

Did you bother to read my post? I already said why there is. The exit/entrance on the Westbound lanes of 44 at 59th is the issue.

It would also be great to get a 5-stack interchange at I-40/I-44 but its doubtful it will ever happen. As far as additional highways, eventually I-240 and/or Airport Rd may need to be connected to the Kilpatrick Turnpike, but I think OKC is still a ways off from that need becoming pressing. I think I-35 should really be at ten lanes with one HOV lane each direction from Norman to I-40 uniterrupted.

Why does 35 need to 10 lanes from Norman to I-40? Rush hour really isn't that bad unless someone is stupid and wrecks. Norman specifically goes pretty smoothly. There...is...no...need.

240 to the Kilpatrick? I think you missed the big ol' airport that's in the way of that.

[bchris02]

Airport Rd would be extended at Interstate standards, signed I-240, and connect into the Kilpatrick. That isn't a priority though and won't be needed for a while but its something that should be on the backburner.

[RadicalModerate]

To the Original Point (with minimal detours and closures, and within a timely manner):
Would asphalt, concrete, cobblestones or yellow bricks provide the best road?
In the name of those inconvenienced by whatever choice is made.
I am convinced that yellow bricks probably work best.
In general.

[venture]

Airport Rd would be extended at Interstate standards, signed I-240, and connect into the Kilpatrick. That isn't a priority though and won't be needed for a while but its something that should be on the backburner.

Or should just burn away on the backburner. :-P

[Plutonic Panda]

Venture, it is a regular traffic jam on I35 to Norman virtually every day. It is not going to get better.

I stand by my original comments also.

[LakeEffect]

Venture, it is a regular traffic jam on I35 to Norman virtually every day. It is not going to get better.

I stand by my original comments also.

And adding lanes won't make it better either... induced demand and all that jazz.

Plus, where they heck would we get the funding for all of this proposed expansion? Why are so many people so divorced from the reality of government spending? Many Oklahomans abhor extraneous government funding, and yet they clamor for more expensive roads and other items that have horrible cost-recovery methods; plus they cry out that the toll roads have "paid for themselves" and we no longer need tolls. If the government is going to spend my money, I'd rather it be on items that provide a better return on investment and are used appropriately - not building highways lanes at incredible cost only to be used fully for 30-60 minutes each day.

[bchris02]

And adding lanes won't make it better either... induced demand and all that jazz.

Plus, where they heck would we get the funding for all of this proposed expansion? Why are so many people so divorced from the reality of government spending? Many Oklahomans abhor extraneous government funding, and yet they clamor for more expensive roads and other items that have horrible cost-recovery methods; plus they cry out that the toll roads have "paid for themselves" and we no longer need tolls. If the government is going to spend my money, I'd rather it be on items that provide a better return on investment and are used appropriately - not building highways lanes at incredible cost only to be used fully for 30-60 minutes each day.

Eventually the expansion will be necissary. It's not like 100% of millennials are choosing to live in the urban core. The suburbs are still growing and will grow for thee foreseeable future. I think the interchanges I mentioned need to be the first priority, but down the road I-35 will need widened.

[venture]

Venture, it is a regular traffic jam on I35 to Norman virtually every day. It is not going to get better.

I stand by my original comments also.

Then actually take the time to look at where the choke points are and the root causes for them. Just slapping on two more lanes each way isn't going to fix anything if it is the way an exit is setup that causes the issue for 60 minutes a day.

You can stand by them all you want, but that doesn't mean they have the substance or support to actually be worth anything.

Eventually the expansion will be necissary. It's not like 100% of millennials are choosing to live in the urban core. The suburbs are still growing and will grow for thee foreseeable future. I think the interchanges I mentioned need to be the first priority, but down the road I-35 will need widened.

When do we stop widening everything? You can add more lanes, but doesn't mean it'll fix the problem.

[adaniel]

And adding lanes won't make it better either... induced demand and all that jazz.

Plus, where they heck would we get the funding for all of this proposed expansion? Why are so many people so divorced from the reality of government spending? Many Oklahomans abhor extraneous government funding, and yet they clamor for more expensive roads and other items that have horrible cost-recovery methods; plus they cry out that the toll roads have "paid for themselves" and we no longer need tolls. If the government is going to spend my money, I'd rather it be on items that provide a better return on investment and are used appropriately - not building highways lanes at incredible cost only to be used fully for 30-60 minutes each day.

In my time in OKC I definitely noticed that people tend to have warped views on what really constitutes "congestion." IMO because there are so many people here from small towns in OK or surrounding states, or they've never lived anywhere else besides OKC and probably remember a time when there far fewer people here. I remember someone in my old office from Yukon complaining that he could only go 55 mph on 40 inbound into OKC. Frankly, I can drive on sections of I-40 just west of DT where it is 10 lanes and it is practically empty after 6:30. And yes, its oftentimes the ones screaming the loudest about socialism and government waste that are the first ones to clamor for 12 lane behemoths because they made the choice to live so far out.

As far as 35 needing to be 10 lanes in Norman...that's just laughable. The latest AADT map out in 2011 shows a 98k cars/day at 35 and Indian Hills, and it drops off pretty substantially south of there. In comparison, Central Expressway here in Dallas, which is 10 lanes, routinely sees 300k/day.